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	Archive through November 06, 2024	25		11/07 03:46pm

Juggernaut "Wreckage."

Two neighbors, hostile to each other, have competing investigative teams, including Boarding Parties aboard.

Ships (fleets?) are fighting.

Juggernaut is watching.

At a release point, the Juggernaut becomes active, not only to fight the two champion fleets, but all its robotic boarding parties become active.

Prior to this "Release Point," neither of the competing neighbors is allowed to take any action against the Juggernaut.

Would need Boarding Party Diagram for the Juggernaut (I can easily see something with nine or ten sections to it), but what do you all think of this idea?

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Wednesday, November 06, 2024 - 07:34 pm: Edit

Star Fleet Marines your job take over that juggernaut. sounds fun.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Thursday, November 07, 2024 - 12:34 pm: Edit

Jeff, that sounds good, but how would you write that up without changing the already published history?

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Thursday, November 07, 2024 - 01:43 pm: Edit

IIRC there's an existing story of a Romulan ship coming across a damaged Juggernaut that had crippled itself crossing the Galactic Energy Barrier. The Romulans investigate the J-No, but it repairs itself and kills all the Romulans before they can contact anyone to report what happened.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, November 07, 2024 - 03:46 pm: Edit

I had thought of the same story. If I recall correctly the Juggernaut in question was actually the first one, and went on from that encounter to fight with the Klingons, Federation, Tholians, and Orions.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, November 07, 2024 - 05:48 pm: Edit

Good question, Roscoehatfield. Too bad I don't have a GOOD answer for it.

BAD answers? Well...

Possibility number one: High Command has come up with this as an exercise for command students after the encounters with the two Juggernauts thus far?

Possibility number two: Juggernaut Gamma goes to the Omega Octant?

Possibility number three: Alternate History Timeline?

(Okay, forget about that number three)

Possibility number four: the Jug just did a twelve round slambada with a Dominator and the Galactic Powers are curious about what the Hades just happened?

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Sunday, November 10, 2024 - 01:29 pm: Edit

Terry, that story is in CL33 IIRC.

By James Cummins (Jamescummins) on Sunday, November 10, 2024 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Possibility four, may make an interesting campaign of extra-galactic wars, the invading Juggernauts run into the Andro's and decide they are the real competition.

But you would need to develop methods for the Juggernauts to establish bases and construct new Juggernauts. Maybe as an alternate history campaign in F&E Andro wars. A post-apocalyptic scenario with the galactic powers gone and only the Andro's and Juggernauts fight for control of the galaxy.

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Monday, November 11, 2024 - 10:48 am: Edit

That brings up an interesting question.

In the original history of the Andromedan invasion, (i.e. before the Darwin jumped forward in time and came back) how did the Andromedans deal with the Juggernauts that popped up?

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Monday, November 11, 2024 - 12:40 pm: Edit

Good question, Paul. My guess (and this is JUST a guess) is that it depends on two factors; how knowledgeable the Andromedans are of the Juggernauts and their relative speeds in intergalactic space.

It's already been established in Canon that the Andromedans can go a LOT faster along their RTN (and intergalactic trunk) than can GP ships. Do the Juggernauts have this capability as well?

If the Andromedans have this capability and the Juggernauts do not, then the only reason why they'd fight is if the Andromedans were as hyped about fighting as the Juggernauts.

Are they interested in battle for the sake of battle (i.e.: engaging the Juggernauts) or are they on a mission of galactic conquest built around tactics/strategies that are alien to us...

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, November 12, 2024 - 07:07 am: Edit

Andros want conquest; fighting is just a means to an end, not an end in itself. They might well fight if a Juggernaut was approaching an Andro base on the RTN or one of the inter-galactic trunkline stations.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, November 12, 2024 - 07:51 am: Edit

Andros are going to have a tough time hunting the RTN. None of their scouts likely will survive discovering a node.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, November 12, 2024 - 09:00 am: Edit

Mike: I think you meant juggy scouts. I can fix it for you if you like.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, November 12, 2024 - 09:02 am: Edit

Juggernauts would indeed have a problem hunting the RTN for the reasons MG gave. They would have to do something like field-converting a DN to have some special sensors, which is easier than sending a note home to purpose build something. This assumes that they somehow figure out that the RTN actually exists.

By James Cummins (Jamescummins) on Tuesday, November 12, 2024 - 05:09 pm: Edit

I would assume the Juggernauts would seek out the Andro's because they are the only power left, the only ones worth fighting. It would be a little one sided if the Juggernauts never discover the RTN, but maybe if the Juggernauts also have unique manufacturing operations that is difficult to find. The campaign can be a mutual sub hunt. The Juggernauts can find Andro bases but not the RTN, and the Andro can locate Juggernaut fleets but not the manufacturing. They both need to send out scouts to hunt the others logistics network, while attempting to destroy each other.
The Juggernauts manufacturing could just be that they have mobile manufacturing units that enter a system and just ravage it to build a set amount of units, then move on every six months, one F&E turn. Larger units are moved with the manufactures there are no colonies, no bases, no communications or relay networks to give away the locations. just resource harvesting, and construction, the necessary crew are manufactured as needed as well. Just like crew losses during combat or inter-galactic travel are just replaced. Organic units pre-programmed with knowledge and training required to do their jobs.
They are a completely abnormal empire, they do not seek territory or conquest, just combat.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Tuesday, November 12, 2024 - 07:25 pm: Edit

Juggernaut discovers Andromedans flying intergalactic and either goes there itself or sends messages to fellow Juggernauts.

Andromedans fighting on home turf?

(Uh-oh! Evil thought forming...)

WHAT IF the displacement phenomenon has a cumulative effect so no more than a single ship with a DisDev can be in any one region in the Andromeda galaxy?

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Tuesday, November 12, 2024 - 10:13 pm: Edit

The Andros have a problem with The Space Lens (SL178) that attacks and rips Andros apart.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, November 13, 2024 - 08:09 am: Edit

Andro bases but not the RTN,

The point is that Andro Bases ARE the RTN.

By James Cummins (Jamescummins) on Wednesday, November 13, 2024 - 01:47 pm: Edit

Hi Mike;

You are correct, my mistake, originally I was thinking that each group could only detect each other's mobile units, and not the manufacturing units or bases. But that is not what I typed out
the whole idea of the sub hunt style was that each group had to search for the infrastructure. Thanks for pointing that out. :D

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, November 14, 2024 - 11:05 am: Edit

The former product page for the Juggernaut missile dreadnought on Shapeways had stated that Juggernaut Gamma was/is of that class of unit - though this, in and of itself, would not have made it definitively so.

For comparison's sake, the implication in the Fire in the Deep fiction in Captain's Log #41 is that the "Juggernaut Tertius" faced by the Hive Ship Star of Redemption was itself a DNM: having followed a "Shriek-less" Juggernaut Primus and a "Shriek-lite" Juggernaut Secundus along the pathway between M81 and the target galaxy the Star had been assigned to.

While it's made clear in the accompanying SFB scenario in CL41 that the records in the Air Force data tapes do not make it clear that the ships the Star encountered were, in fact, Juggernauts, I wonder if the prospect of a dedicated Home Galaxy module might open the door for an "official" post-Revolt campaign to be presented someday.

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But this leaves the question as to what, if anything, the Juggernauts might use in terms of logistics: both in terms of what they can bring from their original galaxy, and/or what they can establish in the target galaxy.

For this, we have two main points of comparison: the various Seltorian Tribunal expeditions, and the Andromedan invasions.

The Seltorians are initially limited by what they can bring with them: namely, the resources of the Hive (and/or Nest) ship{s} present, plus the transportable shipyard(s) held in storage.

However, as noted over in F&E Minor Empires, the Seltorians have several options they can undertake once they arrive at a given location, though some - yet by no means all - of these depend on whether or not a host empire is present that can provide certain resources (such as schematics for fighters, plus the mercenary pilots required to fly them) which the Seltorians cannot provide for themselves. For what it's worth, I once speculated on that this might mean for a would-be Seltorian arrival in Omega, as well as in the LMC.

On the other hand, the Andromedans lean heavily both on the Rapid Transit Network and on the Intergalactic Trunk Line - yet, as noted in Captain's Log #49, there is little direct data at present on exactly what the ITL is comprised of. (On the one hand, the Federation postulates that the Andromedans placed ITL stations at 20-year intervals, using dedicated "Installer" Motherships to set them in place; whereas the Klingons argue that a dedicated "Roadbed" Mothership is designed to set itself in place at each interval, becoming the ITL station.)

Beyond this, there appear to be limits on what either a construction battle station or a Desecrator starbase can build, at least while the latter is acting as an ITL terminal. (For what it's worth, I propose that the second Desecrator in the LMC was in fact converted into a "Consecrator" variant, trading its capacity to work as an ITL terminus for an increase in its production capacity, before it was tasked with building the dreaded Devastator and/or Devourer battleships.) But, on the other hand, the Andros could lean into the presence of the ITL to call reinforcements from home, in a manner which could not be duplicated by the likes of the Seltorians.

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So what might any of this mean for the Juggernauts?

Well, we'd need to know more about what the "operational" and "strategic" speeds are for Juggernaut ships in Federation and Empire terms. Are they closer to those of Alpha Octant (or Neo-Tholian or Seltorian) ships, or to those of Andromedan ships?

Personally, I would argue in favour of it being closer to the former: Andromedan logistics are unique in many ways, and I would prefer this remain so.

Therefore, it's likely that the Juggernaut armada would need to bring some sort of logistical units from their home galaxy, and/or to be able to build installations upon arrival. But, can this be dome in a manner which avoids duplicating what makes the Seltorians distinct?

To this end, I was thinking of re-purposing the "Roadbed" concept for Juggernaut use. As in, perhaps the Juggernaut armada has a range of ships of various sizes, that are designed to fix themselves in place at a given location (deploying positional stabilizers) and thus turning themselves into bases. (Actually, over in Omega, the Sigvirions have a type of base which has such a capacity, though its mobility is somewhat limited.)

In the long run, these "beach-head" bases could be used to establish the local production facilities needed to construct permanent fixed installations (such as starbases or construction yards) - at which point the Juggernaut armada could re-deploy the former to a new site, start work on a new permanent base, and so on and so forth.

The flip side of this could be that, even when the "beach-head base" is set in place, it still has its engine firing arc unprotected by a layer of electrostatic armour - making it more vulnerable than a "permanent" base in that regard.

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As for the timeline of a would-be Juggernaut invasion:

Bear in mind, that, in the Alpha and Omega Octants at least, the Andromedans had first been encountered in the mid-to-late Y160s - decades before the invasions of these regions of the Milky Way broke out in earnest. Although, the first wave of conquest broke out relatively earlier in the LMC.

Of course, one key difference was that, in Alpha and Omega, the Andros needed time to establish the RTN, as their ships were slower operationally than those of their future enemies. Whereas in the LMC, the local Magellanic empires were no faster in terms of operational movement than the Andros themselves; thus, while the RTN was still of vital importance, it was not quite as decisive a factor as it was against Galactic opposition.

In any case, there was a sliding scale between the respective "First Contacts" between the Andros and the local empires in each known region of space on the one hand, and when their intent to invade and conquer was made fully manifest on the other.

So it might well be in the case of the Juggernaut armada. Whether it be towards Alpha or the M81 galaxy, or potentially against other targets (either in our galaxy, such as Omega or the Xorkaelian Tyranny; or towards other galaxies such as Triangulum) each arrival is careful to send data back along the approach track, so as to inform the next arrival of what to expect and, thus, what to prepare for.

In any case, I would very much welcome a dedicated Juggernaut armada module - whether it be used to postulate an ahistorical invasion of a given region of space; to open the door for historical conflicts in more far-flung areas; or, indeed, to set the table for historical wars which are merely yet to break out...

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Monday, November 18, 2024 - 02:13 am: Edit

I think that any hypothetical product for the Juggernauts should focus on flexibility. Set up the juggernauts--we already have most main ship classes, with varients and a few designs that could be used to support them-- construction ships and such, but make the base material flexible enough to support several "alternate" settings like the way C6 gave us several different takes on how those empires might survive until the modern day. Since any given Juggernaut campaign is likely to only interest a minority of players, having several options would likely give 'something for everyone'.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Monday, November 18, 2024 - 05:51 am: Edit

IIUC, the existing Juggernaut SSDs are based on intelligence extrapolations from encounters with Juggernaut ships. A Juggernaut project could be a Juggernaut Threat File, similar to the Andromedan Threat File, with speculative ships based on tech the Juggernauts might have.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, November 18, 2024 - 02:27 pm: Edit

For what it's worth, the former Shapeways product pages for such units as the Juggernaut battleship suggested that when "real" data was uncovered regarding such units, they turned out to be remarkably close to the intelligence estimates worked up for use in the Star Fleet Academy simulators. But, again, this would not have made it definitively so - at least, not without formal verification in Star Fleet Battles terms.

And, of course, even if such "real" units were to exist, it need not necessarily be in Alpha where such data is to be directly sourced from.

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So far as "threat file" designs are concerned: personally-speaking, I'd find it interesting to see a Juggernaut-esque range of ships which, instead of using phasers (and phaser capacitors), made use of Magellanic warp-tuned lasers (and capacitance banks). As in, rather than use phaser-4s as their heavy weapons, they would use heavy lasers instead.

But, would one rather see such a setup as a variation of the Juggernaut armada's SSDs themselves, akin to the various "friends of the Frax" discussed elsewhere? Or would it be better for them to be drawn up as an entirely new faction ("monster" or otherwise) instead - say, in a would-be Module C5R?

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Tuesday, November 19, 2024 - 12:18 am: Edit

Well the first goal would be to create enough "plain vanilla" juggy designs to function in most campaigns, perhaps with some "weirdie aspects".

At the very least, that means attrition units, varient ships and a few other classes, such as NCAs.

For varients, I'd suggest,in order to save ssd's, a "plug and play" ship with a modular fitting, either one that can be changed "in universe" or just representing a basic hull that is fitted out for other duties.
Given the assumption that the juggernauts were originally a colony mission, that kind of design might actually make sense.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Saturday, November 23, 2024 - 08:46 am: Edit

Here is a list of SSDs for the Juggernaut's:

Empire Name / Unit Type	SSD Pages
Juggernaut DN	CL33-118, CL01-38
Juggernaut CA	CL35-113
Juggernaut CL	CL35-114
Juggernaut BB	CL41-99
Juggernaut JUG-M	CL41-100
Juggernaut DD	CL41-101
Juggernaut FF	CL41-102
Juggernaut JUG-B	CL41-99