Sigh.

Hydran tactics are pretty well laid out in the Tactics Manual.

Essentially your cruisers and dreadnoughts are designed to take a pounding and keep on flying. The problem is that they tend to be susceptible to Mizia attacks, and all of their heavy weapons (whether hellbores or fusion beams) are two-turn cycle weapons.

Fusion beams are really only effective upclose, but at that they do support and complement hellbores.

Hellbores grant a major advantage in that once an opponent has a down shield, the hellbore will exploit it. While virtually every other empire has to go through the pain and suffering of downing a shield, only to have the enemy hide behind another one, the hellbore will cause internals if it hits and there is a down shield anywhere on the ship.

This also allows the hellbore to optimize Mizia attacks. As noted in the rules, hellbores can be timed as to when they resolve their damage, allowing the Hydrans to literally score Mizias as part of the same fire from the same ship in the same direct-fire impulse (although they are not as good as PPDs where each PPD pulse that hits on a given impulse is a separate volley).

This gives mixed Hydran fleets some synergy, but they have to exploit it by the fusion armed ships getting in close to knock down a few shields, and then staying between the enemy and the hellbore ships to protect them while the hellbores Mizia the enemy away.

The use of fighters supports this. While stacking them masses their firepower, it also makes them very vulnerable to destruction, and you should avoid having all fighters on the map at one time. Keep some (in large battles) in reserve so that if the enemy tries to blast a hole through the fighters at one point, others can be launched to threaten close range fusions (and later, close range fusions and phaser-Gs) in their faces and thereby creating another down shield for the hellbores to exploit.

The above is a good reason to hold your hellbore fighters back for a second strike when possible.

When recovering fighters, take a look at the availability of EW platforms, and try to get as many fighters as you can on the best platforms. Note that if a ship operates both Stinger-2s and Stinger-Hs, it can incorporate any recovered fighters into a single squadron. So do not fixate on Stinger 32B being recovered by its home ship, consider how to regroup your Stingers into fighters to optimize your EW lending to the reformed squadrons.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 05:43 pm: Edit

Important safety tip: Don't lose 20+ Stingers by having them within 1 hex of an exploding DD. ;)

By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 07:15 pm: Edit

Or an exploding anything for that matter. What annoyed me in the process of flying myself in the Farthest Stars was the speed 15 limits on the Stingers. This, on the more open maps that campaign used, forced me into the tactic of a high-speed approach, then a late turn, or even second turn slow-down to allow me to lauch the Stingers from my ships and have them able to support eachother. Megapacks and WBPs can alleviate this problem to some degreee.

The longer the Speed-15 Stingers stay in play, the more likely the enemy is to simply out run them and play keep-away, preving their proper use.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 07:26 pm: Edit

Stingers are really drones in disguise. The only real difference is the 8-impulse delay before they can fire.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 07:57 pm: Edit

Now I always found Hydran tactics a little... lacking. The Tactics Manual for the most part seems to impart "Close to range two and SMASH!". And most Hydran Tactics term papers I've seen are based on simply getting your Stingers to be able to jump from range 4 to range 2. Useful yes. But it seems to be the end all be all of Hydran Tactics development.

I myself am about to start a campaign where, well, I'm playing the Hydrans and they're doomed. Quite literally, they're about to be set upon by the full force of the Lyrans, Klingons, and Hivers (From Omega), and possibly a few other Omega Races (Vulpa, Braths, maybe the Singers).

I know the Hydrans are doomed. General Wars era campaign. No way they can survive that even if the Kzintis jump in to pull some pressure off.

That in mind I've been scouring looking Hydran Tactics. Particularly something less... suicidal banzai charge than the typical tactics. I need to be able maintain fleet strength as long as possible. My long term strategic plan is one of harrassment, exile, and attrition after all. I have no illusions about getting knocked off map after all. I am certain I'll lose the capital.

Anyone have any suggestions? I haven't flown Hydrans anywhere near enough, I only had one practice battle with them against... well, a very subpar player. (He allowed 6 stingers to get to range 2 on his D7 without ever taking a shot at them other than his range 22 disruptor sniping at them).

Battle goal: Survival and inflicting ship damage (not necessarily kills, just as much damage as I can). Survival of my fleet is more important to me than the damage inflicted. If I can keep the fleet intact well, I have options after all. Under no circumstances do I want to go trading ship for ship against my opponents. Nor will I have the capacity and time to repair any severly damaged ships.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 08:04 pm: Edit

Yeah, I've got some suggestions. First of all, what kind of campaign is it that sets one race up against 3? Are you part of an alliance? Obviously, if you're being ganged-up on, the answer is to get allies, and quickly.

As for tactics... you need Hellbores. Lots of 'em. Going with a hellbore-heavy fleet helps mitigate the need to "banzai charge". Oh, you'll still want some Stingers and Fusion ships, but try to keep a large number of Hellbores available. What year are you playing in? Building as many Iraqois as possible is a good idea.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 08:12 pm: Edit

We're starting in the Fall of 167. And yeah, it's a General Wars campaign, with some odd twists to it as you might guess. So historical alliance applies and the Hydrans are allied with the Kzintis right now. Part of my strategic concern of course being when to bring them into the war.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 08:21 pm: Edit

So are you using a historical map? If so, how are the Hivers involved?

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 08:30 pm: Edit

Historical map. The twist is that two clusters of Omega races have been transplanted into the Alpha Sector. One based around the Branth Homeworld (And a serious Branth Fleet and Branth allies including two Alunda Ships, Sigvirions, Hivers, Alunda, Worb, Singers, and Lorillyl), which is allied to the Coalition and appeared "Offmap" between the Far Stars and the Old Colonies, with entry into Hydran-Lyran Neutral Space and the two nearby hexes.

To complete the strategic picture we also have the return of the Paravians in the empty space between the Gorns and ISC set against the Gorns. The ISC is in a Civil War, north vs. south. (North the Alliance Player, South the Coalition).

And a similiar Omega Cluster appeared one hex south of the minor planet between Gorn-ISC-Romulan neutral zone. Including a major FRA force and the Aurora system, and the Drex, Koligahr, Maesrons, Vari, and Probr, which will ally with the Grand Alliance.

We're also playing random Andromedan Invasion rules (One invasion per year, random hex, random arrival season).

And a Souldra Invasion from the void beyond the ISC.


Yes, because the General Wars themselves were not complex enough.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 08:37 pm: Edit

Well, it seems the initial setup screws the Hydrans, since they not only face their historical foes, but get a new foe on top of that. But that's really a campaign matter, not a tactical one.

Y167 isn't a good year, but then again, it's not good for anyone. You have the ST-1, whereas most folks don't have fighters worth a ••••. Use 'em. You get some "new" fighter types in Y168, so be prepared.

For tactics, again, I recommend utilizing a Hellbore-heavy fleet, although given the period, you're gonna need Fusion/Fighter ships as well.

What kind of command limits are you using? S8? Flexible Command Rating?

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 08:52 pm: Edit

Command limits for ships listed within the MSC, no rules beyond that however.

By Kevin Humar-Barrett (Cheethorne) on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 10:37 pm: Edit

I've always felt that a fleet formation that used larger Hellbore-armed fleets in a second line behind a line of smaller fusion armed ships would be good for Hydran fleets.

This is similar to how the ISC Eschlon formation forces the opponent to either focus on the weak front line ships (mostly frigates) or ignore them to focus on the larger PPD armed ships behind the gun line.

The key part of the Eschlon is that the ships in the back have longer range weapons than the ships in the front (bigger plasmas and the PPD) and the ships in the front are nasty if you ignore them and close with them to get closer to the ships in the rear. This would seem to be a perfect comparison to Hydrans with Hellbore-armed cruisers and dreadnoughts in the back and the fairly tough fusion armed frigates and destroyers in the front.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 02:10 am: Edit

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Quote:

The longer the Speed-15 Stingers stay in play, the more likely the enemy is to simply out run them and play keep-away, preving their proper use

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By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 02:56 am: Edit

Xander, yeah, but then they're more likely to get popped by the exploding frigate/destroyer trick.

Unless you're paying for extended range tractors, or can be sure to release them outside of overload range.

By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 07:20 pm: Edit

Also, when you're trying to drag around Stingerss, that's power that could be used for movement or weapons.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 07:30 pm: Edit

Agreed. It's a balancing point. That's what makes dragging/pushing Stingers at r2 unpalatable. But, if you're tractoring them at r1, you have to watch your range brackets. Having the guy jump from r10 to r8 and unloading on you with photons (for example) before the stingers can clear the blast radius of their tow (or nearby escorting ships) is BAD(tm).

By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 09:39 pm: Edit

Perhaps that is why the Lancer class, which would be 'on the gunline' that Kevin suggested, has such a relatively strong forward shield and large center hull?

But in playing in the Farthest Stars, perhaps as a result of the Flexible Command Ratings involved, I find that Stingers are best focused on a single major carrier, such as a DN (and by extension, the Ranger class), with the other ships providing casual fighters to fill out the fleet.

It's a balancing act between ships and fighters for the Hydrans. Too many of one over the other leads to a gap in their fleet doctrines.

By Terence Sean Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 10:00 pm: Edit

Don't all Hydran ships have stronger #1 shields than opposing ships of the same class?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 02:57 am: Edit

The problem with playing Hydrans using ISC gunline tactics is that if you put the fusion ships in front, they have no deterrent that keeps the enemy fleet from closing to range 4-5 from the fusion fleet, gunning them down with phasers and disruptors and then evading range 3 or less.

Plasma ships can at least force you to wade through a forest of plasma torpedoes to get THAT close to the gunline. You can still do some damage, but the PPD ships will do damage right back, more so than hellbore ships will.

Essentially, if half the fleet is fusion, and half is hellbore, than really you are only getting a decent shot with the hellbore units. The disruptor fleet will give better than it gets in this case.

Still things usually aren't as simple as this in any case.

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 11:16 am: Edit

Well that and as well the ISC gunline is almost always a "theoretical" system. In theory it works well in true application it fails pretty hard with the exception of it does fulfill the requirement of protecting the bigger ships from destruction, but throws the smaller ships under the bus.

For the hydrans it's worse as the PPD has great "hitting" power(4 pulses with decent numbers to hit) while hellbores quickly have poor hitting chances at the ranges stated ie outside of R15 the hellbore blows, while even at R15 it is subpar(hells are 7 to hit ere with PPD being an 8 with 4 chances to hit).

I have limited experience in facing the ISC tactic as well only playing against it some 8 or so times as after that my opponent would not use it no matter what I said. As well these were all equal BPV campaign games with KLI vs ISC and in nearly all the games the gunline gets overwhelmed with seekers and DF. ie my std approach was to send seekers at the outer 4 ships of the 5 front gunline ships and R15 fleet fire at the middle one. This means that the gunline has a large hole in it and the front ships have too many seekers to deal with. ie 12-14 seekers per ship would be average(1 scatter per ship + launches).

Normally the gunline just evaporated on the turn the drones came in, or after using tbombs ofensively the second turns launched drones evaporated it. Yeah he was able to PPD a ship badly but the S torps had 20 hexes to reach any ship and the Ftorps/gtorps of the gunline had to far to travel and then got hit with offside p3s to minimize their damage.

So it normally went:
T1 we close and ship launched drones start as do scatter launch and a gunline ship takes 38 disr from R25 doing some 10 ints to it.

T2 25 or so ship launched drones close and then scatters provide a second wave. after using phasers and tractors on the ship lunched drones ships launch T2 racks which follow scatters in. Tbombs get used against scatters and the middle ship takes 80 internals from fleet fire. With outer ships getting hit by the T2 ship launched drones near the end of the turn crippling them as well.

T3 the gunline is gone and the main ships have to deal with an entire fleet minus 1 ship with weak shielding and some internals. At this point a lot of fleeing went on.

The hydrans would have a greater resistance to drones but that just menas more DF goes into ftr killing/crippling and the gunline is able to get closer as the opps don't fear them til R2 or closer, and at R8 2-3 ships are going goodbye with more dieing due to seekers afterwards.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 02:36 pm: Edit

The probelm with gunline tactics is that they're passive. It's trying to run hydrans as a fire and maneuver fleet.

Hyrans, especially fusion Hydrans, are the big blue barbarians who sweep in at you making you wonder how the HADES you're going to kill them all.

You might get away with fire and movement with a pure hellbore fleet. There would be enough stingers to make someone think twice about getting too close and hellbores are effective beyond OL range.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Thursday, January 07, 2010 - 07:46 pm: Edit

Fusion beams can be effective out to range 10, a fusion 'gunline' isn't as helpless as you think.

And having seen a textbook ISC eschelon formation fight a Hydran 'pike&shot' fleet (mixed fusion/hellbore) that used the exact same tactic, I can tell you that the Hydran does it BETTER.

There are no limits to how many hellbores you can bring in a Hydran fleet....