How about an EMP (electromagnetic pulse) function for Lyran ESG?

Thumbnail sketch: Instead of sending out an ESG, it propagates an "EW" wave that temporarily shuts down drones, shuttles, PFs (maybe even ships?) that come into contact with it. Maybe number of EMP points equates to number of impulses shut down. The larger the unit hit, the less it's affected (but it's still affected). Maybe keep defensive capabilities, passive fire control, etc. Maybe forces EMP'ing unit into inactive fire control for a number of impulses?

Haven't thought about interaction with cloaks or plasmas (main focus being local enemies), but there should probably be something.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 03:42 pm: Edit

So this is different than a a IPG how?

Have you read my two proposals recently?

By Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 03:45 pm: Edit

What is an IPG? And no I haven't read your two proposals, perhaps you could direct me to them.

By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 02:09 am: Edit

An IPG is an Ion Pulse Generator, from the Vudar Module (F2). The rule number is G36.0

By Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 02:29 pm: Edit

I don't have those products. Call me an isolationist, but I prefer my neighborhood.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, February 22, 2010 - 08:17 am: Edit

My two proposals are on the BBS.

Basically a EW fighter for Hydrans and Vudar.

And an EW PF for the Lyrans.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, February 22, 2010 - 12:44 pm: Edit

Mike: It is different from an IPG because it actively disables units. An IPG either destroys small units or produces a very temporary EW effect. This is actually quite different.

Brodie: You can be an isolationist all you want. But if you don't know what weapons are already available, at least in the main setting, it is very hard to know how to scale a new proposed system.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, February 22, 2010 - 01:31 pm: Edit

for this proposal, it's very important to have a clear idea "disable" means because that determined how powerful the device is.

By Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, February 22, 2010 - 09:42 pm: Edit

Gents, please note that I wrote "thumbnail sketch" above. It's basically a general idea I have, certainly open to discussion/interpretation.

Mike Grafton: I honestly can't find your proposals. Which thread are they under? However, in light of Mike West's post my basic answer is: this isn't a fighter thing (well, I don't presently think so).

Re Vudar: I was thinking they were Omega, but it's quite apparent now they aren't. (And nothing against Omega, just not my preference)

John Trauger: My first answer is the slippery politician answer of "what do you think it means?" My second answer is:

• Drones - no movement (for 'x' number of impulses), subject to potential loss of target tracking or maybe even self-immolation
• Shuttles - no movement, no weapons control, no lab, etc. (for 'x' number of impulses)
• SC5 ships - no movement (possibly tumble?), no power, no weapons, no shields (for 'x' number of impulses)
• SC4+ ships - either no effect or a few critical systems shut down (for 'x' number of impulses)

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 - 08:40 am: Edit

http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/12031/24708.html?1265502591

http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/12031/24707.html?1265304893

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 - 02:05 pm: Edit

Brodie,

That's not powerful, that's insanely powerful. the way the device will play is an EMP ship gets close to some important target, renders it inert and then the rest fo the fleet plasters the non-functional target.

Since this is phrased as an ESG improvement, every Lyran ships can do it. Existing Lyran tactics go out the window and shrink to "close and hose"

May the gods help an enemy fleet if this effect is area-effect. One Lyran would be able to disable, if temporarily, an entire fleet.

convoy raids change the moment the orions get their hands on this version of the ESG (and they will). A whole convoy (and its defender) and be thrown off their game.

Same effect on bases?

How 'bout mines?

The sort of effect you're desribing rewrites Lyran tactics and tactics used against them.

This completely breaks the way Lyran-Hydran fights will run because by definition it hits smaller units (like hyran fighters) harder.

As hard to deal with ina fleet engeement, duels become hell as a lyran opponent fires weapons at a less-than-optimal time to ensure they get to fire.

We won't even talk about Lyran ships chaining out multiple ESGs to create an extended-length non-functional time.

You want a subtle effect that works with Lyran tactics, not replaces those tactics. A pulse that forces "disrupted" fire contol on a unit with active FC MAY still be too powerful, but totally disabling a unit unit is a total game-breaker.

By Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 - 03:42 pm: Edit

Well again I didn't exactly post a "finished" concept.

And yes, the basic idea is to dissuade enemies from approaching too closely to Lyran ships. (This is a Y200-ish idea)

What if, for example, the energy cost to use was expensive (e.g. required warp power)? Or the EMP'ing ship loses active fire control for 4, or 8, or whatever impulses? The EMP wave/bubble/thingy loses its potency the larger its radius? What if only cruisers (or SC3 and larger units) could carry it? Can't combine multiple EMP "hits," only affected by most potent hit? Lyran unit can either do EW or EMP but no both; likewise either ESG or EMP but not both? Etc. (And no my original thought wasn't an area effect)

What if the "impact" effects were ameliorated? Drones don't stop but lose tracking temporarily (e.g. have to "spin around" until they lock onto their target again), or force a random HET? Shuttles either lose movement or lose fire control/lab? Movement cost for ships doubles (effectively knocking speed in half) and/or turn mode doubles, or shields kicked down to minimum, or roll for one or two critical system failures? (...for 'x' number of impulses...)

Compare this to a ship breaking down. There the ship actually takes damage and is helpless. Here the unit is stunned for a bit, but doesn't take damage from the EMP (potentially from enemy ships, sure).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 - 04:19 pm: Edit

Brodie,

the one thing you need to keep in mind is it doesn't encourage ship to stay away from lyran nearly as much as it *encourages* lyrans to get close to enemy ships. This is not a defensive system regardless of your intent. It's an offensive one, because it will be used offensively.

if you want it as a defensive weapon your question is not what consequences there are to the generating ship so much as why the Lyrans won't want to close with it.

the decive you're proposing has the inverse of the ISC PPD + echelon when it was introduced. People complained that the ISC were unbeatable for their BPV. Over time tactics evolved to deal with the echelon and these dats it's kinda passe. the ISC don't echelon because it doesn't seem tog et them anything.

We introduce a device with a totally unbalancing effect, then put all these strings on it to try to balance out that powerful effect. Then tactics change. Someone figures out a gimmick that gets him the advantages of EMP and minimizes the blowback. You block that gimmick and then another pops up.

Do you remember about 10 years ago when the ADB dry-docked the Andro Krait TC for a while because someone figured out a tournament tactic that gave it an unfair edge? That was with well-tested off-the-shelf tech too.

By Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 - 04:38 pm: Edit

Is it "totally unbalancing," John? Are the above suggested attached strings workable? If not, what do you think could be a good mix?

How is a Lyran encouraged to close with an enemy if he can't shoot after EMP'ing? Are you going to cluster your Lyrans together, risking massed fire against them from unaffected units, all for the chance to whack one or two enemy units (nothing to sneeze at sure, but what's the risk:benefit)? Shoot, one possible fix for that is any Lyran unit in the same hex as the EMP'ing unit loses active fire control along with the EMP'ing unit (I'm not a fan of that, but it's one possible solution).

So we have to come up with new tactics to deal with this new problem. Darn. Isn't that part of the fun of this game? I'm not belittling the point, just pointing out it could be a good thing.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 - 05:55 pm: Edit

You're missing the point.

New tactics will be appearing with a heavily abusable weapons. To make it viable we'd have to box it into a narrow usage corner and hope that SFB game mechanics allow it enough middle ground to be useful without being unbalancing.

I'm not ignoring your couter-proposals for limits. I'm explaining why they're not enough and *can't* be.

Alpha Octet SFB has only one "your ship is inert" weapon. The SFG. That weapon imposes a significant cost on the generating ship as well as protecting the target ship for the time it's under SFG. I think the only reason the SFG is reaonable is that it gives some benefit to the target ship in addition to the problems.

Think of a "transparent SFG" that lets weapons through, but still shuts the ships down and compare that to your proposal.

By Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 - 09:58 pm: Edit

Sort of like a break down, only without the initial damage.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 12:47 pm: Edit

Now pair it with seeking weapons. Sure the Lyrans don't have many seeking weapons, but their fighters are klingon and do launch drones.