| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, October 28, 2023 - 01:57 am: Edit |
Be nice to the Klingons while you can. It puts them in a better mood when you inevitably surrender.
| By Robert Russell Lender (Rusman) on Saturday, November 25, 2023 - 02:45 am: Edit |
Regarding Module R8 and the Salvage Tug (R1.49) and the Harbor Tug (R1.50)... I cannot find anything expressly forbidding the installation of Skids or Ducktails, but the ship description for at least the Harbor Tug mentioned in Module R8, sates the ship is a singular construct, which logic may indicate precludes the ability to install Skids or Ducktails to the ship. I would tend to guess that the Salvage Tug is also a singular construct (but again, it doesn't state so in the ship description for R1.49).
1. Can either ship install Skids or Ducktals?
2. Could such ships be built from scratch with a any Skids or Ducktails "Hard Welded" to the ship as part of its construction?
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Lastly, the ship description for the Harbor Tug (R1.50) states the following... "As Harbor Tugs are not intended to operate outside of their home systems, amenities for the crew are sparse and their is virtually no room for "passengers" or other non essential personnel". this would seem to imply the ship doesn't have the range or life support to venture much out past the outer edges of a system. Yet the ship SSD has the exact same boxes (hull & systems etc) as any small freighter (plus the Tractor/APR section), which I've never seen any mention of having such hugely limited range or space for its crew.
Can anyone shed some light on this? It really seems to me to be a discrepancy that doesn't make sense. I understand it's certainly implying the Harbor Tug cannot rescue crews and tote them around the galaxy. But the notion that a two Crew Unit ship that is effectively a Small Freighter In Balast (with a Tractor/APR ducktail), cannot travel out past a system doesn't seem right.
And would this apparent limitation also extend to the larger Salvage Tug?
| By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Saturday, November 25, 2023 - 07:00 am: Edit |
Hi Robert
in Module R11 [R1.68] Harbor tugs and salvage tugs cannot use skids or ducktails [R1.69].
| By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Saturday, November 25, 2023 - 07:11 am: Edit |
edit
| By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Saturday, November 25, 2023 - 11:48 am: Edit |
Robert, there are quite the variety of skids available in R11 and it is my understanding that a small freighter, if operating without the cargo pod, can operate up to three of them. Likewise, a large freighter can operate with two, four, or even six of them.
With that, I've put together a sort of "Mock Harbor/Salvage Tug" with additional capabilities. It's not quite the same as what you were asking about, but it can be close.
| By Robert Russell Lender (Rusman) on Saturday, November 25, 2023 - 04:26 pm: Edit |
Wayne, Thanks for the R1.68/9 rule pointer. I had not noticed that previously.
As to the apparent range limitation for the Harbor tug leaving a system...
The ship description for the Harbor Tug (R1.50) states the following... "As Harbor Tugs are not intended to operate outside of their home systems, amenities for the crew are sparse and their is virtually no room for "passengers" or other non essential personnel". this would seem to imply the ship doesn't have the range or life support to venture much out past the outer edges of a system. Yet the ship SSD has the exact same boxes (hull & systems etc) as any small freighter (plus the Tractor/APR section), which I've never seen any mention of having such hugely limited range or space for its crew.
Can anyone shed some light on this? It really seems to me to be a discrepancy that doesn't make sense. I understand it's certainly implying the Harbor Tug cannot rescue crews and tote them around the galaxy. But the notion that a two Crew Unit ship that is effectively a Small Freighter In Balast (with a Tractor/APR ducktail), cannot travel out past a system doesn't seem right.
And would this apparent limitation also extend to the larger Salvage Tug?
| By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Saturday, November 25, 2023 - 06:07 pm: Edit |
It's not that one can't go 'cross-country' with the harbor tug, just keep in mind that it wasn't designed with that in mind.
It would be like taking a sub-compact off a used car lot and expecting it to handle an off-road course designed for a Hummer. Doable (better is short), but not comfortably.
| By Robert Russell Lender (Rusman) on Saturday, November 25, 2023 - 07:54 pm: Edit |
And yet there is almost every indication that a Small Freighter is intended to go long haul distances between systems and even across vast regions of space (across the Federation or beyond).
As I quoted above, the implication of the entry of the Harbor Tugs ship description seems to indicate that the ship barely has enough life support to support the ships crew within a system, let alone between systems and beyond.
As implied, Small Freighters go long haul distances. Heck, take the Small Freighter In Ballast SSD. If the ship can support being a one crew unit ship traveling long haul distances (albeit without making profit), there is basically zero difference between a Small Freighter and a Harbor Tug. Other than the Harbor Tug having a Tractor/APR section and two crew units, there is literally zero difference between the two.
I'm just wondering why the ships description implies the ship cant operate with a crew outside a system (or at least is barely able to do so for long). Again, I know it doesn't explicitly say the ship cannot operate past a systems boundaries with a crew, but the description seems to imply that.
| By Mike West (Mjwest) on Saturday, November 25, 2023 - 08:58 pm: Edit |
I will assume that the tug has no range because the systems are simply not there.
Yes, a small freighter, even a small freighter in ballast, can be built and have the supplies for long-range travel. All well and good. But the tug doesn't have all that stuff installed. Sure, it *could* have a standard freighter's life support system, supplies, and crew amenities installed. But it *doesn't*. This is presumably to save money (on maintenance, if not initial cost).
Take a box van chassis. You can install a lot of things into it. You can even turn it into a full long-distance mobile home, of sorts. But, if it has none of that and only has a 10-gallon gas tank, it can't make the city limits and back, much less make it to the next town over.
Just because things can be installed in a given hull does not mean that they are installed. For whatever reason, harbor tugs just do not have a lot of otherwise standard stuff installed.
| By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Sunday, November 26, 2023 - 01:01 am: Edit |
I'm no expert, but it's my understanding that real world harbor tugs tend to stick to the sheltered waters of harbors and don't have accommodations for long deployments; it's not part of their mission, since sticking around harbors means they're close to a dock for end of shift.
Real world salvage and anchor handling tugs, on the other hand, can spend months at sea, so they've got to keep crew happy.
Then there are pushboats working the rivers. They're also tugs, but they've got all sorts of special considerations for wrangling barges in waters that won't be as deep as what other types of tugs operate in and...
Waitaminit... I'm getting off topic...
Short version? While there're a number of different kinds of "Tugs" in the real world, they're quite different. IMO, the Salvage and Harbor tugs in SFB reflect that well.
| By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, November 27, 2023 - 04:41 pm: Edit |
Robert Russel Lender:
The SSD is not able to fully convey what the tug is. There are connections and cables and mechanical systems to grab on and hold the item being moved. which can be MUCH larger than the tug. And allow more than one tug to work with an. outsized object. Consider pictures of tugs working around a large passenger liner firing into dock in New York. While the graphic looks like a small freighter in "ballast mod" it is not, neither are the collection of boxes despite being organized as a small freighter a small freighter. We chose to use the outline to make it easier to find the systems on the ship for purposes of recording damage. (hulll hit, of there is the hull. Bridge hit, here is is, and so on). Lets face it, there are only so many things you can do with a small outline. So you want to know the range of the harbor tug. If it is not towing something it can easily make the next inhabited system, but the crew will NOT be happy because it is cramped (the "white space" is in fact filled with the mechanical parts and electronics to perform its primary function). That second crew unit is there to help ease the load on them (remember, that shuttle by itself takes maintenance, but so does the rest of the ship).
| By Steven Zamboni (Szamboni) on Monday, November 27, 2023 - 09:13 pm: Edit |
The "hard-welded" nature of the Harbor and Salvage Tugs is one of the reasons the Shapeways models were made distinct for those two ships. Freighters can be repackaged into various utility ships, but Tugs are a bit more solidly built.
| By Robert Russell Lender (Rusman) on Tuesday, November 28, 2023 - 10:53 am: Edit |
Thanks everyone. Incidentally, the reason I'm asking is that I'm running a campaign and trying to justify to someone why he can use the Salvage tug at longer distances but not the Harbor Tug. Other than the ship description mentioning "amenities for the crew are sparse", there is really no rational explanation when compared to a Small Freighter SSD.
As a compromise, I've gone ahead and told him he can only operate that ship no more than two campaign hexes from its home system (and then only in emergencies).
| By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, November 28, 2023 - 02:52 pm: Edit |
Rusman,
Your best bet is likely to tell him to NOT use either the Salvage tug or the Harbor tug. Rather he should just use a freighter in ballast. At that point he can then do whatever he wants with the pods, skids, and ducktails. Just use the ship he actually wants. And with the ridiculous number of skids, he should be able to get close enough to what he wants/needs.
| By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, November 28, 2023 - 03:21 pm: Edit |
Mike West:
There is a codex to what you are suggesting. Many of the skids are held by governments and assigned to the freighters, and after the relevant mission are taken off the freighter so they can be used by another freighter. After all, if you let some random freighter make off with your search and rescue skid, you will not have it when you need it. Freighters do not often stay around where you can call on them. So before you go will nilly on this, read the background (R section) for the item and see if the government is not going to take it from you just as. you were about to embark on a mission where you were counting on its presence. Remember, what you think is important is not what a government thinks is important.
| By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, November 28, 2023 - 04:52 pm: Edit |
Petrick,
Sure. But, I was trying to address Rusman's concern with a direct substitution. I.e. instead of using a salvage tug, just use a freighter in ballast. If they need more capabilities, there is always a skid and/or ducktail to add. Yeah, there is probably government (or corporate) control over those elements, but aren't they already going to face that as a salvage tug? I can't imagine that any government wants their salvage tug gallivanting around outside their home system!
| By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, November 28, 2023 - 05:22 pm: Edit |
Mike West:
The question is who owns it. However, a salvage tug would need business to be profitable. It is a bigger ship and intended too go to the cite of "something bad" to salvage the carcass. It becomes a problem that if you are on such a ship, you are not going to be accepting contracts to take a few citizens off planet. You can do such a thing on a small freighter (or a large freighter, or a huge freighter), but again where is the profit?
| By Robert Russell Lender (Rusman) on Tuesday, November 28, 2023 - 09:13 pm: Edit |
Mike and SPP,
In the Campaign I'm running, the player wants to be able to haul back large shipwrecks (or portions of a wrecked hulk), for later scrapping etc. Not just cargo in Pods (or pods themselves). Hence the Harbor / Salvage tug topic.
| By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Wednesday, November 29, 2023 - 11:36 am: Edit |
RPG campaign? If so, might their adventures prove useful for fiction?
| By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Thursday, November 30, 2023 - 10:37 am: Edit |
For all of the ships in the September Hailing Frequencies, what is the Warship Status for each unit? - Ken Kazinski, 30 Nov 2023.
| By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, November 30, 2023 - 11:20 am: Edit |
For the PFs, they are RPW, but PUR. While they are rare and there weren't many of them, they were standard regular production ships, purchased from another empire. I take this from how Kestrels are handled overall. Petrick can tell me why I'm wrong if he needs to.
(Except the survey PF. It is LPW.)
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