Archive through March 15, 2010
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Early Warp Romulans:
Archive through March 15, 2010
While my first thought was to give the Romulans full EY technology, I'm not necessarily opposed to scaling it back. But only if that is the right way to go to make them fun. My concern is trying to handicap the fun to make them fit Smarba.
I realize that any movement will be more fun than they are now (I admit I've played them only once primarily because they were more of a puzzle than a game). What I'm shooting for is the most fun, not just more fun. If we're going to go to the effort of making designs and playtesting them, lets try to make them as fun as possible (this need to obviously be accounted for both the Roms and their opponents). My suspicion is that this requires that the major classes, at least, be about balanced for duels.
I realize the the less we change the easier it will be to balance them. So maybe the right way to go is to just take the current ships but swap the impulse for warp drives (and add the normal warp-speed impulse deck). There could be two sets of warp drive sizes one for for the W-Generation and one for the Y-Generation (and maybe even a third MY-Generation set equal to the historical sizes). This retains much of the "antique" flavor (lasers, no transporters...). Then the only issue for balacing would be whether or not to retain the mask/veil (or perhaps make them only function at speed 0 and 1). For those who want to worry about Smarba, this still allows the Klingons to give them phasers and transporters (among other things). The next step might be a "Kestrel" equivalents (based on the actual Klingon early years ships). This has the advantage that the ship designs alredy exist.
I suspect that part of the issue is trying to retain their "flavor" while making them fun. I'm not sure what the EY Romulan flavor we should be aiming for is. I realize that it is easy to accidentally convert them into pseudo-Gorn.
Andy, I have to agree with Mike that I'm not enthusiastic about decoupling movement from other functions. I've fooled around with such an idea for a race concept I'm working on and the result is a very "modern" ship (it gives ships a very X-like behavior--run all day and do "everything else").
Gary, my biggest concern about a better mauler is now we have a whole new weapon to test and balance (and publish--if we stick to existing items, we really just have SSDs plus the half column of ship descriptions).
Doing the Kestrel convrsions seems to be fairly straight forward (just keep all the systems), but does seem to require giving the frigates 2xF torps (I can't see 2xG and the ships just aren't set up for single torp configurations). The cruisers are just fine with 2xG. The C4 conversion is interseting. I can see several possible torp configurations: 2xF + R, 2xG + R (it probably shouldn't fit an R on the center warp, but...), 3xG (the most "reasonable," but its so bland), 2xR (center empty to "balance" the heavier torps), 2xR + F, or even 2xR + G (the last three are really pushing it, but the Vulture does have 2xR). I like the 2xG + R (or 2xF + R) the best (they also "mimic" the K9R). It will have a huge shuttle bay (8--again mimicking the K9R), one interesting idea could be to give it 4 (laser) fighters.
David. I was just trying to avoid making the Romulans TOO power efficient. With low max speed and that much extra power, they might be better off going speed 0 and just using the extra power for EW/reinforcement; I wanted to avoid that scenario, if possible. Still, even going with GW-style impulse decks and standard warp engines, it would be an improvement.
I would prefer if phasers and transporters remained Smarba. The lasers add a "coolness" factor and the landing on planets ability supercedes the needs to transporters.
Gary,
Regarding the mauler: If you give the Romulans early warp, the mauler is *instantly* converted in to a much more effective weapon. I figure we are pretty much guaranteed to see a warp-powered Falcon included in any conjectural Romulan submission, and it should be pretty effective.
David,
I still don't think that kestrals make any sense. They Klingons just won't ever make the treaty before Y159. They have no reason to, and they actually have more interest in just keeping them down.
As an aside, I did 2xG on the D4, 2xF on the D3, 1xG on the F4 (like the original KF5R) and 3xG on the C4. You just can't get an R on the engine mounts.
It occurs to me that if you give the Roms full EY tech you can run the WE under EY rules (and most first-generation-warp Eagales) as-is.
If we were going to do double-conjectural Kestrels, straight F-torps would be too good from the stasis feature of F-torps. We would need some kind of no-stasis FY torp or, just as we allow a GW-era Klingon to have 3 spaces of torps in for each set of 2 disruptors, we could allow 2x G-torps in EY.
A good mesaure would be a gorn's plasma armament. An EY Kestrel should match it.
We could use some technobabble to reduce the effectiveness of a warp mauler.
If we state that one of the technincal problems with the Mauler is that when it draws power directly from warp engines, the damage done to the warp engines is increased due to the fragility of early warp drives. When warp engines were improved, the mauler effect on the engines was more easily contained.
Just give the falcon less batteries. Say 20
That works too -- what about not connecting the warp engines to the mauler device at all?
Does anyone ever actually fire the mauler that way?
I never did. Never felt that any shot was worth crippling my future energy supply.
John,
All EY F-torps do not have the statis box (YFP2.0). The statis box was never developed until the MY sometime. (Presumably right on or just after Y120.)
Mike,
Cool. I didn't know if the F itself was a MY invention or not.
YIS for the stasis box-equipped Plasma-F torps is Y140, IIRC. If not, it's close.
Mike, my thought on the Kestrels was to make them a Klingon simulator "race." Remember the Klingons were planning on attacking the Romulans (before the Tholians arrived). Call it a "worst case secenario" (or exercise) in preparation for that. And if nothting else, it would be in preparation if the Romulans were to capture a mutinied ship. Once introduced, the Klingons just kept updating them to use as a "tactical challenge" for students and captains. As such, they'd actually be more "real" than the standard Romulan warp capable ships (at least against Klingon opponents). This could even be streched to be the reason why the Klingons thought giving the Romulans the ships would work at all.
As far as Kesterel torps, why use F torps for the D3 conversion? Most W-generation ships have the same heavy weaponry as the Y-generation (the D3 and D4 both have 2 disruptors). I'm confused by your reference to the original KF5R, my KF5R has 2 xF torps (or are you referring to a pre-Captain's design?). Where do you put the torp? As far as the R torp in the engines of the C4 conversion, well if its in the simulators, it doesn't need to really fit. And Roms without R-torps just doesn't seem right...
The bigger question is probably the mask and veil for these ships (considering that the Klingons probably never knew about them). On the other hand we could just fudge it and say they did (or just ignore the plausability issue).
One "fun" Kesterel ship might be a KD4M version (it would be even more "speculative" under my approach than the mask/veil).
I don't think that a warp Falcon is going to be a problem. Remember that the Falcon itself is not introduced until Y119, almost the end of the EY period. The warp version would presumably be introduced the same year and would thus be facing MY era ships more than EY ones...
John, while not being able to use the warp isn't a big disadvantage, it is sometimes useful (you start in range and know you need the extra damage for the kill).
David,
If the Klingons had conquered the Romulans, it is most likely that they would never have used plasma. They would have just continued to use their existing ships. It is also highly likely the Romulans would have been reduced to just another slave race. (Though their "racial ego" would have made this a continuing difficulty.)
However, as a Klingon simulator race, it probably could work. It would show that the Klingons did contemplate whether they should switch weapons in the event of a conquest.
As shown on the D6/D7 differentiation (the D6 gets a single Pl-S per pair of disruptors, while the D7 gets a Pl-S and a Pl-F for the same pair of disruptors), I decided that the D3 mounts were smaller or less robust that those on a D4. Consequently, the D4 mounts could hold a weapon just slightly larger than one box, while the D3 mounts were already at their maximum with a single box.
I wanted a differentiation, and that is my in-game reasoning.
Yes, the original, pre-Captain's KF5R had a single Pl-G/S instead of a pair of Pl-F. (BTW, there is no KF5R in Captains; it is a K5R. 
)
As for the C4, please do what you feel best. I still think the C4 should be 3xPl-G. This shows that it is not an ideal Romulan ship. They may have wanted the Pl-R, but they just couldn't fit it on the ship.
I just went for the no-mask option. I was treating the kestrels in isolation (i.e. independent from my Star Drive or conjectural warp efforts), and so just left the mask as impulse only. (Besides which, even after the "real" treaty, the Romulans initially thought they wouldn't need the cloak with warp power, either!) I am leaving my kestrels with no mask.
As a Klingon simulator race, would not the Romulans be saddled still with plasma bolts since that was the most advanced weapon available to Romulans before the Tholian arrival? It would be odd to develop a background that would require precognitive Klingons.
RWW,
That is a good point. However, they would be "evolved" to seeking plasmas after they are seen in use. (But, as you imply, they probably never see any Romulans again after Y70 or so.)
Do note that my kestrels are just a "out-of-game" mental exercise because I like kestrels. Davids are the simulators
Mike: You are right; my missive was targeted at David. Fun conjectural kestrels need not over turn established history. (I don't like EY kestrels but that is a different matter.)
As John Trauger pointed out (effectivly): if you 'back down' the immediate post Smarba hulls (WE/BH/SNA, and presumably one of the Vultures) to EY rules, then you have the Romulan W-class hulls.
Ignoring any galactic ramifications, the (my) question becomes: what would a Romulan Y-series look like from that developmental standpoint?
I had always approached the idea as "backing down" the WE/BH/SNA would give the Y-class ships, not the W-class ships.
If, however, we do fully back the ships up to W-series (with the 16 pt engines, etc.), then that gives us a wonderful opportunity: to have not only EY ships based on the "eagles", but the chance to make a brand new set of Y-class ships. We can do BOTH of the options mentioned before.
Assuming that brand new Y-class ships are to be made, there are two main choices: make up something completely new or backdate the 'hawks. I kinda like the 'hawks.
I know that I had discounted the hawks before, but, if we are going to presume a fully capable EY Romulan race, then the Klingons and Romulans will have had some contact and, considering the races involved, conflict. Their narrow border would likely have precluded any major wars, but I am sure they would have been fighting each other as much as the Feds for position.
Therefore, suppose they captured a few examples of Klingon ships that influenced their designs. (The Fed ships didn't influence their designs because they are ugly.) The result of the influence were the "proto-hawks". These proto-hawks would have the same general lines as the later ships, but completely without the modularity.
I have to go whip some up now ...
OK, I created my "proto-hawks".
I used the Firehawk and Skyhawk. I chose the Firehawk instead of the Sparrowhawk for two reasons. First, I figure that the GW Sparrowhawk was chosen first due to expediency; the Romulans would have preferred to use a "real" cruiser. Second, I just can't make the three engines work right for a Y-ship.
The Early Firehawk is just cut down to Y-size. Do note that, despite the similar appearance of the sides, this ship is in no way modular. That would be added later.
The Early Skyhawk is a pretty nice little YDD. Again, this has no modular capability.
Also, neither ship has cloak. As their current technologies of the time (mask and veil) don't work with warp, they are only used on defensive and sublight units.
I doubt either of these would ever be published, but I thought I would show them off anyway.
Seriously resurrecting my old dead topic, I have recently had a few new ideas.
The simplest, most direct path is still to assume that the Gorn raid fails, and they develop tactical warp drive. We can do the timing however, and we can do the progression however, but the base idea is that they uses the WV/WE/BH/SNA base hulls with slightly crappier power levels. This probably requires a civil war somewhere along the line to keep them in check, but nothing too major. Smarba still works, because the WV/WE/BH/SNA are seriously deficient to their contemporary opponents. They still need the technological infusion.
However, there is one more divergence point to look at: The failed Klingon invasion (that gets stomped by the arrival of the Tholians). The obvious path here was touched on in the Historical Q&A topic. Basically, the Klingons get the invasion off in time, take over, make the Romulans their "most favored subject race", even adopt some Kestrel designs, and go to town.
But, that path (unless you are a Klingon supremacist) isn't that satisfying. The Romulans turn into also-rans, and that just doesn't do. (Plus, the existing Kestrel designs don't work right: the security stations have to go back in.)
So, I came up with a variation of that idea: How about an abortive invasion? The base idea is that a forward element leaves just prior to the Tholians arriving. This leaves a powerful fleet free and mobile, but it is no where powerful enough to take over the Romulans, and can't take on the Tholians. To a large extent, they are stuck. Assuming they are pragmatic enough to not want to die in a blaze of glory (not a sure bet, I know), they really have two choices.
The first choice is to simple go home. There is enough space between the Tholians and Federation that they could make it. Not a sure bet, but given that they are fairly powerful, that should be doable, even with some losses. And returning from that defeat shouldn't have much shame, as circumstances outside their control overtook them. They didn't fail. But then, they didn't succeed, and many command careers likely would end up stagnating from the stigma.
The second choice is to redefine the opportunity. If their chance for conquest is gone, and their future back home is gone, why not make a new future here? So, why not cut a deal with the Romulans? Sure, there are a horde of trust issues to work through, but (especially since this is an alternative path) we can gloss over them and assume they work out. It doesn't need to be probable; merely possible.
The deal is that the Klingons provide the technology required to modernize the Romulan fleet and production capabilities, and in return the Klingons are reorganized into a new House. Once they figure out the two species are inter-fertile (which I think is true in the SFU), their House can start to intermarry and even accept Romulan followers and members. Also, some of the initial Klingons would reject this (I imagine most of the subject races would very much want to go "home"). I assume the objectors are allowed to leave reasonably freely.
In return, *we* (the players) get EY Kestrel ships. Since their shipyards would be geared to produce these ships, and any 'Eagle' designs would be specialty ships. (Presumably, in the future, the third generation ships would still get made, as the Kestrel designs would be long in the tooth by then. But I am not going that far.)
Now, if you hate the Kestrel ships, this idea sucks rocks. Fine, I accept that. But, I *like* the Kestrels. So, for me, this rocks. My main point of this post is to get help in figuring out the major implausibilities. I.e. why is this "impossible".
Mike,
The thing is, I don't think you do get EY Kestrels, except perhaps for conversions of the ships that were part of the original invasion force. The entire Romulan production chain is set up to produce "Eagle" series ships and it would be a massive dislocation to change that over to produce Kestrel designs. And the officers in the Klingon fleet would not know how to set up a production line to produce Kestrels anyway. They're soldiers, not industrial engineers.
I think you end up with EY versions of the Eagles (the cruiser would be better than a War Hawk but not as good as a War Eagle, for example) and a few Kestrels converted from the invasion ships but now cut off from their normal logistics chain and therefor converted to Romulan systems. And I think you get a very early introduction of "3rd Generation" ships. These would require less disruption of the industrial base, since they keep more characteristics of the Eagle-type but adopt some, but not all, Klingon features. You might even have an EY version of the Sparrowhawk. Or if not that early, you get an MY Sparrowhawk that bears about the same relationship to the "real" Sparrowhawk as the LD5 bears to the true D5.
But I don't think you would ever get the "classic" Kestrels of the KR type.
well if the romulans develop warp at the same time as everyone else they could have received "kestrels" as part of a deal to put pressure on the feds and or the tholians while the klingons preform an ey era version of operation nutcracker on the tholians.
Jeffery,
But that's a different alternate history than the one Mike is supposing.
What if the Tholian homeworld arrived in our galaxy a couple F&E hexes 'over' (towards the 'west') vs where it did historically? That might be enough to actually not just cut off the potential invasion fleet from the rest of the Empire, but actually split off a couple of planets in the Klingon Empire entirely...presumably, with some (?limited?) production facilities on them? These, now stranded on the far side of Tholian space from the rest of the Empire, choose to ally with the Romulans, and history otherwise follows as you outline.
(Although, honestly, I don't think they'd fare that well. Romulans are...quite...certain of their superior racial status compared to others. To see the government forming a new house for them to integrate into Romulan society would require a pretty staggeringly powerful Klingon presence. One powerful enough that the Klingons in question would probably just choose to fight, anyway.)