Archive through March 17, 2010
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Early Warp Romulans:
Archive through March 17, 2010
Actually, it requires one change.
The Klingon fleet admiral chooses diplomacy with the Roms instead of a blaze of glory or total surrender. Smarba comes early, spurred by fears of tholian super-ships.
The klinks end up selling the roms hulls, and that DOES give you EY kestrel hulls in addition to EY Eagles and Hawks.
There is a small possibility of late-EY sparrowhawks and skyhawks coming out of this.
Alan,
On general principle, I agree with you.
However, I am going with a few assumptions that I did not stick into the high-level description (because it starts to get fiddly).
- The Klingons had full designs for the up-coming Y-series ships.
- The Klingons had engineering support. Part of the intention of the invasion was to take over the shipyards for their own purposes.
Now, the design plans are probably not too big of a deal, as most of the main flag ships (like our fleet's C3) would have had them for redundancy, if nothing else. The bigger problem is the engineering support. So, perhaps a group of engineers were able to escape to meet up with the fleet?
Also, note that I am assuming it takes a decade (the decade comes from the Fed/Rom Anarchist article in CL) to get the production lines moving. During the intervening time, I figure there would be 'eagle' conversions (to get some heavy plasma on-line), but that the Klingon fleet would serve as-is (well, no jump racks). Then, once the upgraded production lines start producing, the older ships (both eagle and Klingon) can be converted or retired as necessary.
And, considering the effort to change over the production systems to warp, I figure which design is used would be fairly negotiable. SFU history makes quite clear that the "real" Romulans could have made Kestrels easily enough. They just chose not to. Here, I am just presupposing that they do choose to use Kestrel designs.
Also, I do assume that several WE and WV are converted over time. They are invaluable for their Pl-R, even if their tactical speeds are much more limited.
Xander,
I *did* say there were trust issues.
However, for all of their "superior race" propaganda, they obviously don't completely buy into it. They were never too proud to by the Klingon technology in Y158. I doubt they would be too proud to cut a deal in Y78. Particularly since they have been having their head handed to them regularly.
I am figuring about 20 or so warships, plus some support vessels. That is more than enough to protect themselves against Romulans with no masking device and only range 5 bolts. Seriously, that is shooting fish in a barrel. But it is no where near enough power to actually conquer a world. Sure, they could devastate world after world, but to what end? There is no benefit to that. (Even Klingons understand there needs to be a goal to all the killing.)
While I do think such a deal actually working in the end is unlikely, I really don't think it is implausible.
Weren't there Orions operating in Romulan space (illegal colonies) in this period? Perhaps our cut-off Klingons turn semi-pirate, making an alliance of convenience with the Orions and conducting a guerrilla war from Orion bases? The attacks force inter-House cooperation and the Romulans get their act together to develop tactical warp early. They also get plenty of experience fighting using tactical warp. Eventually, the Orions/Klingons are defeated and driven out of Romulan space, but the war distracts the Roms from putting pressure on the Feds & Gorns. Later, Smarba happens as part of a "war reparations" deal with the Romulans.
Quote:The attacks force inter-House cooperation and the Romulans get their act together to develop tactical warp early
If the war with Earth, and the war with the Gorns, didn't spur tactical warp development, I don't see how Orion pirates - regardless of support - could do so (and what incentive would the Orions have to be party to that, anyway? Surely, with the amount of corruption that existed in the Romulan 'house' system, they were MUCH more profitable to leave as-is than if the Klingons gained influence)
Funny you would mention the pirates ...
I actually have the Klingons killing the Orion colonies. It demonstrated their commitment to the deal. Plus, it kept the crews busy during the initial few years while they integrated into their new Empire. Given the crew reductions (see below), I figure it would also give a good chance to work in some Romulan crews to get experience with the new systems.
I agree with Xander. Having the Klingons ally with the Orions does nothing. Having Klingons kill Orions helps cement the new relationship.
Oh, and for the one who mentioned an "earlier Smarba", not exactly. These Klingons would be executed by the Klingon Empire on the spot for arming the helpless Romulans. Once they make the deal, there is no going back. They have to stay and integrate. It is completely a one-way trip.
On the other hand, I did expect a non-trivial portion of the fleet to want to return to Klingon space. I figure 10-20% of the ethnic Klingons (including 99% of the surviving ESS contingent), and about about 80% of the subject races, would want to go home. They are allowed to peaceably leave, but with non-ideal ship choices so as to preserve the strength of the remaining fleet.
They figured that it was better to let the malcontents leave now, than risk getting stabbed in the back later. Even if the malcontents somehow make it back, they figured retribution would be a long time in coming, and by then they would be ready.
On the topic of the "new" Hawks, maybe make the base SeaHawk show up much earlier than the historical date. By Y174 it is less than useful. As one of the first MY Romulan hulls (even if a few downgrades need to be done to make it more MYish), it would be quite serviceable. This also allows deferring the whole modular hawk problem for a while- first they had to get the TacWarp/MY warp capabilities to work with a new hull, then you move on to the fancier modular system.
Quote:If the war with Earth, and the war with the Gorns, didn't spur tactical warp development
Both wars were fought before either side developed tactical warp. The Gorns could have conquered the Romulans post-tactical warp, but chose not to due to Paravian guilt. The Orions are a different story, they are actually occupying worlds in Romulan space and the Romulans regarded it as a deniable Federation invasion (see Prime Directive: Romulans for details on the Romulan perspective on this). I believe that the immediate, very real threat of conquest would get them to cooperate (and perhaps a strong political leader needs to appear as well). As for why the Orions would do this deal, greed. They sell the Klingons fuel and support facilities, the Klingons have a large enough fleet that they can loot entire colonies rather than the smash-and-grab activity the Orions had been stuck with up to that point. They have a real chance of creating a second Orion enclave in Romulan space.
alan,
i know but i believe that my suggestion would serve mikes need for ey kestrels without a huge change to the history. or atleast i think so. whatever works best.
I really don't think the Klingons would do that. They don't really have a viable long-term population. So, they need to find a way to integrate somewhere.
And why bother with the Orions? They get to be instrumental in Romulan society if they help them, and can integrate there. With the Orions, they are just tools to be used and discarded. (And I have to believe the Klingons more than understand that, and can identify that from quite a distance.) The Orions have nothing to integrate into.
Again, the Klingon force has two choices: Go home or integrate with the Romulans. If they are not going to integrate with the Romulans, they just need to go home. Pissing around with the Orions helps no one but the Orions. And these Klingons are not going to be Orion tools.
I still don't see why building an ally against a technologically superior foe (the tholians) would be any kind of offense, let alone one meriting execution.
I am NOT suggesting the fleet hand the keys to Klingon technology to the romulans on the spot. But in the first years of the tholian presence where the main thing that's known is they pack near-cruiser firepower in a frigate hull, you'd think the Klinks would be looking for allies interested in containing the threat.
It could be the greatest con in the history of this alternate SFU with he klink admiral concocting a whopper about fighting his way through to the romulan border with a message of danger and a hand outstretched in freindship...
The problem is that there are not enough Tholian ships to prevent the Klingons from simply "going home". The Tholians largely moved aggressively but mostly fought defensively. In deep space, the Klingons, although on the wrong side of the Technological curve, could bring more and heavier hulls to a fight (command rating 10 DNs versus the Tholians having only one fleet with a Command Rating of 6, the one led by the NDD). So while Klingon Squadrons and particularly their smaller ships had real problems, in a very real sense as long as the Klingons did not attack a Tholian base they could effectively just drive through Tholian space.
The reason they could not invade the Romulans with the Tholians there was that it was not possible to "mask" the "superfast" Tholian ships from raiding Klingon convoys. This made it impossible to remain in the sphere of space the Tholians were carving out, or to invade Romulan space. Basically the Tholians could out run any Klingon ships which let them maneuver with impunity, and the Klingons could not attack any real Tholian Strongpoints with the ships they had because of the Tholian's web.
As it was, the Klingons eventually managed to destroy the NDD and the two NFFs, but may not have been aware that those were the only ships of their types the Tholians had. And of course other problems (wars with other empires) kept distracting them from trying again (making a major effort) during the Middle Years. It also explains why the Tholians (unable to build larger ships) invested so much in fixed defenses (literally one significant or major base for every hex of space they carved out as the Holdfast).
SPP,
Part of my base assumption is that it is easy for the Klingons to go home. They don't even have to go through Tholian space! Just veer coreward a few hundred parsecs, and no one is there at all!
My concern on "going home" is not that they can't. (They can.) The concern is that their careers are over. They are the sole surviving fleet of of a force totally wiped out by a new enemy. (In a fight they didn't even fight! They don't even get *that* glory!) And, they can't even pursue their original goal of conquest. While they won't get *punished*, because they did nothing wrong, they also don't get to advance, either. In effect, they are at a dead end.
So, instead of just going home and looking forward to those desk jobs, they decide to embark on empire building. Sure, they can't rule the upgraded empire, but they can sure have a LOT more influence than they ever could back home.
Again, this takes a fairly ambitious and creative Klingon Admiral who is willing to turn his back on the Empire. Not likely, but certainly not impossible either. It also requires a large chunk of his officer corp to follow him. Again, not guaranteed or anything, but Klingons have shown an inclination to follow when they believe in a leader. So, the Admiral is charismatic, too. That's OK; he's gonna need it to win over the Romulans.
Also, as mentioned above, he is gonna have to do a bang-up job of diplomacy to get the Romulans to buy into the deal. I am sure there will be significant checks and double-checks to insure adherence on both sides. There are millions of ways for the whole thing to fall apart. However, that is part of the story: it didn't.
Finally, the point is not that it is probable this could happen. Nor even be likely. It can, in fact, be highly improbable. The key point is if it is *plausible*. If it is even in the realm of possibility. I am not looking to make this more probable. I am simple seeking plausibility at all.
So, if the Klingons can shrug their shoulders, say, "Oh, well. Didn't work out," turn around and just go home to accolades for surviving the whole fiasco, then, yes, this scenario breaks down. And if all Klingon admirals are highly loyal, and willing to sacrifice their careers for the Empire, then the whole thing just vaporizes.
But, if a Klingon Admiral can be creative enough to think of this ploy, be ambitious enough to want to try, be bold enough to try to get this glory, and be selfish enough to turn his back on the Empire, then this can work. And nothing I have ever seen written about the Klingons shows me that this Admiral could not exist. (But, I can always be wrong. I have quite a track record at that.)
Quote:It could be the greatest con in the history of this alternate SFU with he klink admiral concocting a whopper about fighting his way through to the romulan border with a message of danger and a hand outstretched in freindship...
That is not what I am looking for.
The Klingon Admiral is in no way representing the Klingon Empire. He is not even pretending to represent the Klingon Empire. He is *only* representing himself and his fleet. He is blatantly stating that is all he represents. The only deals he makes are for him and his crews. They will deal with the Empire when it comes calling (if ever).
Now, if he wants to use the "threat" of the Tholians to help his bargaining position, fine. But he in no way represents, or pretends to represent, the Klingon Empire.
Mike West:
Three words: Empire Security Service.
Background: The MAJORITY of the fleet's officers would not be negatively impacted (junior officers watch officers, etc.) as long as they were following orders. While the Admiral, perhaps his staff, and some senior commanders might think their fate would be bad (i.e., the desk jobs you are suggesting), they are attempting to abscond with the Empire's assets (the ships), and from an ESS officer's point of view, these ships are needed to help defend the Empire from this new (Tholian) threat.
Even assuming an amazingly charismatic Klingon Admiral, I do not see the ESS officers agreeing to his plan. The Empire is under threat NOW, these ships must get back to imperial space NOW to defend the Empire from this new threat.
Further, I cannot see subspace communications already being cut, and cannot see the Admiral explaining to his staff and commanders why he is going to disobey orders from the Imperial Staff, and eventually from the Emperor himself, to return to defend the Empire from this threat and instead embark on a plan that may take a decade or so to come to fruition, if it ever does at all, while the Tholians are attacking imperial space.
Basically, you get into a major mutiny situation as the ESS will arrest the Admiral and anyone who agrees with him in order to get the ships to return to Imperial space to defend the Empire.
You cannot just ignore the ESS (which I admit is a common blindspot for a lot of people considering the Klingons and their possible actions).
I could have seen it working the Other Way (Romulans in Klingon space), but that does not help you. But given the ESS, I cannot see your admiral cutting any kind of deal without the express sanction of the Empire.
Mike,
You're telling me the Klingon Admiral can represent the Empire in aggression but not in diplomacy?
He can be forgiven for not attempting something outside the actual scope of his orders, but his orders didn't cover the tholians either.
Forget the tall tale aspect--that's just for fun--the Admiral can say, "Look, we have to defend against this new threat. So do you. Can we tell the Empire you are interested in working together?"
What's the propigation speed of subspace radio anyway? if it's like classic trek where a message takes days or weeks to get to a destination and back, an admiral *has* to be empowered (and trained) to conduct diplomacy because he doesn't have instant consultation with the Empire.
If he does have close to real-time subspace radio contact, he can act as a diplomatic conduit for negotiations until trained staff can be dispatched. Nobody gains the rank of admiral without some ability to talk the talk and negotiate.
SPP,
I didn't forget the ESS. I assumed he worked around them (which seems to happen with striking regularity in the various fiction pieces). However, what I was forgetting is that, while apparently not that difficult to do on a single starship, would be vanishingly difficult across a whole fleet.
So, no I didn't ignore the ESS, but I did discount them way too much.
However, I can still work with this. 
How about if some of the ambitious Admiral and some of his loyal staff just "disappear"? How about this ...
When the Admiral finds out that the rest of the invasion force no longer responds, he sends scouts to figure out what happens. When he gets the story, he hatches his plan. He says that they need to get back to the empire, but during the trip they will probe the new enemy's strengths and weaknesses. During this time he and his followers lead one of the forays. They then kill their ESS staff (which is apparently not that hard on a single ship in a story like this) and head off on their own.
While having the fleet made life easier for the Admiral, it isn't completely necessary. The primary part he needed was the technical expertise, and we can assume he had that. (He definitely has the plans and information, and will have one working example.) I don't know how he gets some of the engineers on his ship. Maybe he "pities" them and lets them staff the ship's engineering in reward for their service thus far, or something.
So, in the end the Admiral still makes a deal for himself and his men. Obviously not for a full House, but still for a position of influence. When he delivers on his promises, he is rewarded. While they are quite Machiavellian, the Romulans are generally honorable.
Of course, the rest of the fleet assumes the stupid admiral's grandstanding resulted in his death, are happy about that (figuring a cruiser is worth getting rid of him), as now they have a convenient scapegoat, and go home without bothering with more forays.
This way my ambitious Klingon Admiral still gets to deliver the information and technological information, and only has to kill the ESS on one ship to do it.
Quote:You're telling me the Klingon Admiral can represent the Empire in aggression but not in diplomacy?
John,
Apparently, I am not being clear. I am not saying the Admiral cannot represent the Empire. I am saying he doesn't want to! He is defecting, for all intents and purposes. He has no future with the Empire. So, he is making a new future in a new Empire.
Doing anything with the Romulans, other than conquering them, is counter-productive for the Klingon Empire. The Empire would not give the Romulans anything that doesn't come from the end of a disruptor pistol. There is no point. There is nothing to gain.
[The only reason the Klingons did Smarba is because they were cornered. They were at war with the Kzinti and Hydrans, and the Federation was preparing to join them. The Klingons could not handle all three at once, so they needed to make the Romulans a credible threat to counter-balance the Federation. That was not the case in Y78.]
If they give the Romulans warp, they help the Romulans but get nothing in return. They don't know the Romulans. They don't respect the Romulans. The Romulans are children who pretend to be grownups. They are the ultimate pretenders. There is nothing there for the Klingons except as future subjects. And the Tholians have taken that away.
So, if the Admiral stays loyal to the Klingon Empire, he needs to just leave the Romulans in their backwards, immobile space ships, and go home. Since he can't conquer them, leave them be.
The only reason the Admiral would ever make deals with the Romulans is because he is operating independently, not as an agent of the Klingon Empire. So, I made him a newly declared free agent.
Mike West:
Uhm . . . killing the ESS on his ship does not eliminate the ESS from his ship. It is established that there are ESS spies in the ranks, and they would get the word out. See "Mutiny on the Demonslayer". Further, killing the ESS would be a definitive message of "I am committing Mutiny against the Empire" (and again see "Mutiny on the Demonslayer").
Your plan might work, since it is only one ship and the rest would perhaps have to make the choice to go home rather than pursue him deeper out of supply. But he would still be contending with ESS spies, and Klingon crew and officers who are loyal to the Empire and not to him.
Mike,
If they give the Romulans warp, they help the Romulans but get nothing in return. They don't know the Romulans. They don't respect the Romulans. The Romulans are children who pretend to be grownups. They are the ultimate pretenders. There is nothing there for the Klingons except as future subjects. And the Tholians have taken that away
That speaks from knowing tholian limitations and objectives, neither of which the Klinks know at the time. You know the tholians aren't a true threat to the Empire. The Klingons don't.
An extra-galactic force with superior technology has invaded Klingon space, apparently bent on conquest. Their numbers and limits are not known. The Empire also has constant intirgues with other powers, the Lyrans, Hydrans, Kzinti, and let's not forget the Federation. they cannot put their entire Empire toward fighting the tholians or they'll have war on every front except maybe the Federation.
How is this any less "up against the wall" than the conditions that percipitated Smarba? We know it isn't the same because we have perfect knowledge of the tholian side. But the Klingons don't and won't for years. In the fog of war, the tholian invasion will look like a crisis of the first order and aid to the Romulans might be the only way to bring enough pressure on the tholains to contain them.
Your way, you have a Klingon Admiral not just abandoning the Empire, but abandonng the Empire the the midst of a crisis. Sure he doesn't get the glory of conquoring the romulans, but he's on the front lines of an alien invasion. He goes home in disgrace only if he is unwilling to be the vanguard of the Empire's defense. there's plenty chance for glory and advancement in fighting the tholians.
SPP,
That is true. OK.
Well, sending the message out that he is committing mutiny isn't that big of a deal since he is, you know, actually committing mutiny.
Since I need only it to work for my purposes, I guess I am close enough. He would definitely have to stack the deck in his favor and work extremely hard to succeed. But, he is, after all, really ambitious. And, since this isn't even SSJ level, that works for me.
Thank you.
(For the record, I still think the best way for Romulans to get warp power early is just for the Gorn/intra-house raid to fail. Which isn't actually that hard.)
Quote:He goes home in disgrace only if he is unwilling to be the vanguard of the Empire's defense. there's plenty chance for glory and advancement in fighting the tholians.
That is true. So, if we make the Admiral an loyal and efficient, rather than blindly ambitious, then what he does is probe this new threat.
The Tholians likely know where he is, and they have not come for him. So, he should be fairly free to investigate the threat. He does not outright attack, as that accomplishes nothing. His first responsibility is to investigate. Therefore, he would do so.
What he would quickly find out is that the new invaders have a definite border that they don't go past. They also find out that they never see anything much larger than an F3. As he probes, he sends reports back to the Empire, where they find out that the Empire doesn't even know any of this happened! (Remember: it took four years before the Empire even found out that any of this happened at all.)
So, after a month or two of investigation, the fleet has probably mapped out most of the new border, and have made it back to the Klingon side of the new threat. At this point, they are probably well out of supplies, and they have probably been able to send for some additional reinforcements to replace them as they head back for supplies and repairs.
But, even if the Tholians were continuing to expand, or were being highly aggressive against his fleet, he would likely not both giving the Romulans any technology. If the Tholians are an immediate threat, he will contact the Federation. (Remember, they are still on fairly good terms in Y79.) If the Tholians are not an immediate threat (which he would have figured out on his way home), then he will just inform the Empire. Either way, the Romulans don't really help out meaningfully.
So, the Admiral can try to go rogue and act independently, or he can do his job and investigate the Tholians on the way home. But in no case do the Klingons as an Empire make any kind of deal with the Romulans. There is no need, and nothing to gain.
Sorry Mike, gotta go with JT and SPP on this one.
Nobody knew anything about the Tholians back then except they had smokingly hot supertech (web,phaser-1's,web,phaser-4's,web.....)
and their light frigates (PC's) could eat D3's for breakfast and give D4's high blood pressure.
Best way to give conjectural EY Warp Roms Kestrals is say they captured them in skirmishes with the Klinks near the Tholian border.
The Klingons quickly discovered that the new enemy wasn't expanding. That right there puts a severe kibosh on their need for panic. They are not going to be making deals with the Romulans.
On the renegades, yeah. The best I can do with that is have the admiral run off on his own. Sure, he could theoretically do that, but why would he?
But the problem with getting a couple of captured ships is that the Romulans need the knowledge, not just the ships. I don't want them to convert an existing ship. I want them to make new ships! A pair of converted D3s is pointless. A fleet of redesigned D4s is cool! That is what I am looking for.
So, how about some post-contact Klingon refugees? How about if a few of the engineers survived the assault and got away, but were then found by the Romulans? Maybe in a tug or something. Maybe a battered boom was found with survivors and the computer core intact? Might they capitulate and help the Romulans out? Or would they just "fall on their swords", too? Remember, these don't have to be warriors; just engineers.
Remember, my goal here is:
- Romulans building Kestrels.
- Romulans not being Klingon slaves.
- Klingon Empire being fairly uninformed, at least to start.
To get there, I need:
- Full designs, not just captured examples.
- An example (still need it).
- Knowledgeable Klingons.
Quote:Even assuming an amazingly charismatic Klingon Admiral, I do not see the ESS officers agreeing to his plan. The Empire is under threat NOW, these ships must get back to imperial space NOW to defend the Empire from this new threat.
See, I think this is where the suggestion of 'have the Tholians arrive a few F&E hexes west of where they did, historically' may help.
The Klingon fleet cannot operate independently in support of the Romulans. Too many reasons prevent it. However, if there are Klingon COLONIES on the other side of the Tholian Annex from the Empire, proper, you've got a better case for a fleet staying on that side of their space. There are, after all, Klingons there to defend from this new threat. (FWIW, they'd have to be pretty major colonies for the fleet to not consider simply evacuating them)