Archive through March 31, 2010
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: General Tactics Discussion:
General Tactics:
Archive through March 31, 2010
Pretty expensive option at 2 BPVs per admin shuttle... but it sounds like it would be an effective emergency mine field opener option.
of course it would have to be a "deep space" mine field such as in "Admiral Stockers war"...
The reason not to use a minesweeper might be as simple as "None available".
The only draw back I see with Reids idea is that most aux CVs are slower than a "normal warship" such as mine sweepers built on a Old Fed Light Cruiser hull or a klingon D6 cruiser variant.
the defending "side" will see a single Aux CV (or a group including escorts, depending on the year of the encounter...) and have plenty of time to respond with faster ships, should they want to.
There are lots of things an Aux CV should be doing instead of hauling a dozen or two of old admin shuttles to use to destroy random mines... and with captor mines (assuming they are deployed to the mine field reid chooses to attack) he might not even destroy an actual mine... just provoke a captor mine response at the loss of a 2 BPV admin shuttle.
Actually I was thinking as an Orion, Where I DONT have minesweepers.
Using captured freighters or wild weasels is probably the most efficient way an Orion would have of defeating a minefield. The only other way is if the Orions happened to have a couple ESGs in option mounts.
Do pirates *have* auxiliary CVs? I know they operated freighters, but I'm pretty sure they didn't have any auxiliaries.
I can't see pirates bothering to attack a base most of the time, there are some examples of them using a "trojan freighter" and even attacking an ISF base station in a couple of scenarios. Mostly though they're going to attack weak, undefended targets and a base with a decent minefield around it doesn't qualify.
Guys I was just thinking out loud, but its not a bad tactic if you dont have a minelayer.
The Orion Sal carrier conversion could carry it out, sit there turned off fc and Orion stealth Bonus plus 6 points ECM would make it VERY hard to hit, an ECM drone would make it harder plus all its power to shield reenforcement, leave a couple of Impulse points for Impulse turns. It could last quite awhile.
And Guys Its just thinking out loud and Yes as an Orion I've had to crack open a few bases in my time. I usually use the Freighter snowplow tactic, since one thing most Orions have are lots of captured freighters sitting around. But this is an option.
Actually Reid, I suspect that it could be a "standard" option for Orion Raider Groups (say 2 light raiders and a Salvage Cruiser, or even a CA (Enforcer) and 2 CR Raiders.
For those times when you simply ***CAN'T*** sit around and use the normal mine sweeping procedures... like being pinned up against a deep space mine field with a police or navy task group in hot pursuit.
stop just short of the mine field, emergency decellerate to 0 (with a speed plot set the following turn for slower than the wild weasels each ship launches... if the mine field is of normal density, 2 or three turns at speed 4, the wild weasels will clear the mine field ahead of the pirates ships and if the pursuing forces show up before the pirates can "get out of dodge" you have the benefit of the mine field protecting your flanks. (atleast until the "owners" of the mine field show up to patch the holes you made). 
You'll lose 3 or possibly even more weasels... but if it allows the pirates to survive and escape pursuit, it might well be worth the loss of the BPVs.
Yup and as your last ship is going through the minefield drop a few T bombs out of your shuttle bay to close the "gap" you just made.
The pursuit will probably not be thinking of that while trying to chase you down.
Dont even really need a SAL 3 ships with 2 shuttles each could easily do it.
The SFB Tactics Manual, I see that it covers weapons, movement etc. Is this more a recap of those rules or is it actual tactical advice/tips that people have used successfully for each race?
Mostly tactical advice and tips for playing specific races, weapons, and units (fighter tactics, PF tactics, etc.)
There is some recap of rules as well in the interest of discussing tactics, but it is mostly tactics advice.
And some of the data is based on OLD tactics that have since been superceded by the various aces...
(not me though)
Can you give examples of that old tactics that have since been replaced by better tactics?
You know the section on echelon tactics on the ISC chapter?
Ignore it...
Oh, and since they added megapacks (and bombers), plus drogues, as well as plasma carronade.....many tactics are....questionable.
Plus IIRC the modern "stupid tractor tricks" don't get covered as much as they merit (given the common use of them in squardron battles seen on the BBS.
David wrote:
>>The SFB Tactics Manual, I see that it covers weapons, movement etc. Is this more a recap of those rules or is it actual tactical advice/tips that people have used successfully for each race?>>
It is specific ideas and tactics and ways to play the various races and technologies in there. As noted, a lot of it is considered "old" and/or "out of date", but really, it is fun reading if you like the game, and certainly everything in it is valid if you are learning the or newish to the game.
I appreciate everyone's input. Out of curiosity, we is the ISC echelon formation no longer valid (or every valid)?
I've had reasonably good use out of compressing the echelon to 1 hex's separation instead of 3 between ships.
I've also had good results from repacing gunline FFs and/or DDs with PFs and fighters (except for a few SC4s to anchor the gunline)
The ISC echelon formation doesn't work well basically because SFB movement rules don't really allow the formation to react properly. For example if you need to stay around a fix point, like you defending a base or a planet, it is next to impossible to prevent the opposing force from flanking you. This has a lot to do with the way speed must plotted for the enire turn (except for the tiny amount of reserve power). Your gunline will be guessing which way the attacker is moving. If it is sitting, the attcker can suddenly acclearate towards one of the flanks, and before the gunline can turn and move, the attackers have gotten around and are attacking the core ships. If you set your gunline in motion, they'll either get pulled away from their core ships or they are headed towards the wrong flank. Basically I've never seen the formation work when the opposing force was determined to attack the flanks of the formation.
I haven't had the opportunity to see if the echelon formation works any better under the Federation Commnder movement rules. I gut feeling is that you can make it work much better. Those rules are much more flexible for unplotted acceleration and deceleration. Perhaps someone who has tried this could provide additional insight.
Gunline as written does not live up to it's name against many races, but mainly seekers especially drone users.
Against drone users the gunline just gets overwhelmed with seekers and then in fleet fire a DD(a gunline ship) gets hit with fleet disr or photon fire further exasperating the issue.
It does do the job of protecting the bigger ships so if in a campaign that restricts SC3 and SC2 ship manufacture it may be worth it. Otherwise it tends to go like this:
Near full control of seekers ar launched on T1. DD loses a shield + minor intsfrom R16+ disr fire.
T2 these close and get supplemented with further seekers with ships closing to R15 where they blow up a gunline DD. This is mos likely the centermost DD of the gunline. The whole gunline drone defense implodes and entire gunline takes drone hits.
T3 Gunline with many internals tries to defend against the next round of drones dieing to em while disrrace moves onto next level of echelon.
Of course on T2 you ge to paste one ship pretty well and may actually get internals on it, but by T4 you've lost the gunline and had 2 other SC4 ships hit pretty hard as well.
I never liked the echelon formation concept.
Consider a military troop formation as they are marching. When you turn left, the left side slows down, the right side speeds (extends strides) up. That's nice in real life but in plotted energy stuff, not very good against a mobile unit.
Yeah, catchy sideslip movements might help, but to maintain the formation, the best you can do is apply reserve warp. There's too much effort just to maintain formation at the cost of lost reserve capabilities.
However, if the ISC fly in a more flexible formation, which most opponents of mine have done, they are just plain NASTY.
Can someone give a general overview of what the "stupid tractor tricks" would be as they apply to squadron level battles.
Would this be simply using your ships to tractor each other for a single impulse or so in order to get extra movements on the impulse chart? Or is it something else entirely?
Kevin - that's part of it, as is avoiding unwanted movement hexes by the same method. Another important effect is on turn modes - for instance a pair of Fed CA's moving 24 can turn after only moving three hexes by using a tractor to drop to 12 at the right time.
Yeah the tractor tricks are many. Some of the most common ones are:
1. Using tractors to slow your psuedo speed to allow for better turn mode.
2. to allow for additional moves due to both tractored ships moving. This usually buys one or more ships extra movement.
3. Using tractors to allow for psuedo speed additional movement. By this I mean gaining additional hexes by ausing the psuedo speed. ie 2 MC 1 ships both plot spd 10 while using imp for movement. After imp 7 movement(which 10 moves), by having 1 ship spend 1 point in tractor their psuedo spd drops to spd 4. both move on imp 8(with a most likely carryover of one movement til imp 9) for a gain of 2 hexes of movemetn. tractor is dropped after movement on imp 9.
This also allows for the ability to gain good movement after spd 0 usage(I think the 2 ships can move like 13 hexes with a good plot).
4. Rotation at end of turn gains a ship 1 hex. This of course can also be used on ftrs aka tractoring 4 hydran ftrs that are R3 to an opponent on imp 32 and rotating them to reach R2 over the break has spelled many a ships doom.
There are a few others but these are the most notable.
In addition, any 2 ships moving at spd 1 or greater, can add a movement on impulse 1. The only way a ship can move on 1. THis is the only way a ship can get out of a balck hole (tractor rotate, and delayed movement), or stop a speed 32 seeker at range 1 from impacting on 1.
From Kerry's description of tractor tricks, under point 3, I'm not sure I fully understand what he is saying.
Ok, so two heavy cruisers (movement cost 1) are using 9 warp and 1 impulse to go speed 10. When one tractors the other, he says they drop down to speed 4. This is the first thing I don't understand, why wouldn't they drop to speed 5 (9 warp / new move cost of 2 = 4.5 -> 4 + 1 for impulse = speed 5).
Second, even assuming that he is right about the speed 4 issue. He says that speed 10 moves on impulse 7 and speed 4 moves on impulse 8, but what is the "carry-over movement" on impulse 9? Where did that come from?
Bill true on the carryover to move on imp 1 that is an important one as well ie:
5. By tractoring on imp 31 for imp 32 movement both ships move so this normally forces a "carry-over" movement to occur on imp 1 of the following turn.
Kevin to answer your question. If two ships are both using imp for movement then the imp is discounted for tractored psuedo speeds. There may also be a further restriction that they have to be the same size class(from memory books are at home).
The "carry-over" movement is when two tractored units move on the same impulse, if their movement causes both ships to move two hexes then only one moves on the impulse the movement is called for while the second ships movement is delayed til the following impulse ie it is "carried-over" to the next impulse.
My example was just to provide that by using the spd 10 plot both ships would get an extra movement on imp 8(with the second ship getting it on imp 9) thereby allowing the pair of ships to move 2 total hexes when the original plot(spd 10) would not have moved on either imp.
My actual usage of it was a little more devious as due to an ED the prior turn I had a pair of ships do a spd 10 til 10 spd 9 til 22 spd 10 til 32 plot(again from memory the imp 22 may be imp 21 or 23). By allocating tractors and tractoring on imp 7, 15, 23 each ship gets a movement on the following imp(ie 8,16,24). While this allows for 17 total moves on a spd 10 restriction the tractor power costs so I think the ships only gain 4 or so additional hexes.
Again for the carry-over movement it is being assumed the ships are heading in the same direction. Normally for opposing ships(ie tourneys) this is not the usual case(ie the ships are normally moving against each other). This is where a lot of the abuse comes in.
Had a good game last night and thought it would be interesting to not only share what happened, but also solicit input on what you would have done differently or what you thought was a good plan. As I’m getting back into SFB, and SFBOL specifically I’m trying to learn as much as I can from those that have more experience than me. Here is how the game unfolded, ranges and speeds are approximate:
ISC TCC (me) vs. FED TCC
Turn one I plotted a 15/26 speed, had the plasma ready to go in a standard mode, charged PPD, used the full battery and recharged with warp. I also planned an HET in EA and put a few remainder pts on the #4 shield (in case I used the HET). My initial plan was to close and fire the PPD to soften up some shields, fire a PPT and a standard plasma and see the result. HET if necessary to stay out of photon OL range, depending on the situation. As we closed I fired the PPD and hit all four pulses. I fired it on I32 so that I could start the recharge on T2 while still firing so that it would be ready to go T3.
Fed had anticipated the move and had a little reinforcement so my net result was only several boxes off the 6/1/2. At the beginning of T2 I fired a PPT from tube B at around R10 and then a standard G from the same tube half a dozen impulses later. I originally wanted a PPT from B and a standard from C, but positioning didn’t make it possible to get into C’s arc. So he knew one was fake, just not which one. I went ahead and got to R8 just before the PPT hit to see what he was going to do. I figured if he weaseled I’d head in for a phaser strike, if he phasered the PPT I’d turn off as I didn’t want to get any farther inside OL range. I figured the R8 gamble worth it for positioning since the photon was only 50% at that range. The gamble paid off as he fired all four…and all four missed! The dice were with me. He then weaseled dropping to speed four. I was doing something like a 24/19 plot (approx) so looking at the impulse chart I had a good chance of getting in close I thought on an aft shield. The weasel took care of the PPT and standard. After the post-explosion phase I popped off a standard F from one of the aft tubes and then a few impulses later I HET’d (from EA again) into him and launched off a PPT and standard G from the C tube. My thought was that, again, if he weaseled I’d be safe from his Ph-1 counter-strike or he’d have to phaser down the inbound plasma. He popped a second weasel and deceled down to speed 0. I hit R1 and we had a tractor action (from him against me) which I won with 4 points of reserve power. I took his #5 down to a few boxes after this with 6xph-1’s. Next impulse I hit R0 and did internals with the 4xph-3’s. This netted a couple of power, both 360 type ph-3’s and a photon! As I said, the dice were definitely with me.
We ended it on EOT for T2 as he had an 0400 wake time, and I had a 0500 wake time. It was a good game and I enjoyed it very much. For T3 I would have had the PPD ready to go, would have recharged all the phaser capacitors and put some into tractors to resist another grab attempt. I would have tried a 0/10 plot in reverse to try and back out to beyond R4 to get the PPD a shot. And put what I could in reinforcement, probably the #1 as I tried to back out. Or I could have completed the overrun and launched the last F on the way out and then try to come around for a PPD shot with reinforcement on the #4. I don’t believe his torps would have been ready as I ‘think’ he fired them during the beginning of T2 so I’d only have his phasers to deal with unless he popped a third weasel or burned some on the F.
Obviously there were several options open to him as well. So with that as background, what did you like, dislike, what would have done differently or the same, what do you see that I don’t, what would you have done on T3 in each ship?