"Remember, my goal here is:
- Romulans building Kestrels.
- Romulans not being Klingon slaves.
- Klingon Empire being fairly uninformed, at least to start.

To get there, I need:
- Full designs, not just captured examples.
- An example (still need it).
- Knowledgeable Klingons."


I figured that at least one captured ship would be taken apart and analyzed (lets say it was too expensive to convert due to damage.)

So, they convert the captured Klinks to EY Kestrals, and about 5-10 years later, start building Klingon-influenced designs (aka, the EY Sparrow/Skyhawk series).

Works for me. It's all conjectural anyway, so why sweat the small stuff?

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 12:46 am: Edit

Xander,

If we had a relevant (not major, just relevant) Klingon colony on the far side of the Tholian Holdfast, you don't really need the fleet anymore. In fact, having the fleet leave actually helps, as it leaves the colony open to recruitment/annexation by the Romulans.

But, since the Federation is still so far away, it wouldn't take much to just evacuate like you mentioned. (And I doubt they would have a major enough colony that would prevent the ability to evacuate that far out.)

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 01:02 am: Edit

Actually, I am not that enamored of EY Fire/Sparrow/Sky/Sea-hawks. I actually made them. The Y-Firehawk and Y-Skyhawk work OK. The Y-Seahawk is like any other frigate. And the Sparrowhawk just sucks. In the end, I only did the Firehawk and Skyhawk.

If you want to see my take on them, go to my "Wednesday, April 28, 2004" post in the "March 15, 2010" archive. I have links to them there. Yes, they are that old ...

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 02:05 pm: Edit

Mike West:

Define "Quickly". Anyone military man knows the concept of establishing a lodgement on a distant shore (whether across the English Channel or simply across a river) so that invasion forces can be built up. The Tholians were not going to tell the Klingons "We are all that is, and if you just let us have this area of space we promise not to bother you any further". Even if they did, the Klingons would not have believed them.

The wonder is the Federation did not heavily probe Tholian space,but actually backed off on their own border demarcation decree (see that slight bump away from Tholian space in the nominally circular region claimed by the Federation, i.e., under the decree hex 2919 is Federation Space).

The Klingons probably figured the Tholians were not a major invasion sometime in the Y90s (during the Great Klingo-Tholian war) when the Tholians were unable to muster really powerful fleets to defend themselves. The Klingons reached Tholia, so had a good idea of what the Tholians had, but the technological difference was just too great.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 02:45 pm: Edit

We still have a Klingon Admiral deciding that it's OK to let alien invaders occupy just "some" of klingon territory, as if to say "we didn't really need that rimward bit anyway" I just can't buy that, Mike.

While I still think an EY Smarba *is* viable, If we want a Klingon admiral to go rogue we need a better motivator than "desk job". Because the tholian invasion promises all the glory and advancement a Klingon Admiral could hunger for even if the tholians aren't a galactic threat. Our Admiral is not going to be penalized for one missed opportunity when another opens up.

If you want a rogue admiral, what you need is a screwup.

The Admiral messes up in some way so as to either loses important Empire assets to the Tholians or he could have acted to deny the tholains a foothold, something. You need something that says neither he nor his crew (maybe his fleet) can go home again, EVER.

Getting caught napping by the tholian invaders and having his fleet trashed qualifies. Do we know how this invasion fleet was destroyed by the tholians in the mainline continuity?

Once ties to the Empire are forcibly cut, taking refuge with the Romulans quickly becomes the best deal on offer.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 03:01 pm: Edit

John,

I don't think you need a screw for this rogue admiral. I think you need someone smart, capable, charismatic, and extremely ambitious; but someone who has been passed over for the highest rank by others he believes (quite possibly correctly!) to have been promoted ahead of him because of their political connections.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 03:32 pm: Edit

Actually, given the setup I gave (forward fleet elements leaving just prior to Tholians wiping everyone else out), I agree with Petrick that the Admiral's "correct" response is to return home while actively probing the Tholian infestation. The Romulans are left as not an important consideration now.

And if the Klingons are going to panic and ask for help, they are going to ask the Federation, not the Romulans. Remember, the Klingons and Federation get along reasonably well right now. Why arm the Romulans (which will take years to bear fruit) when you can just engage the Federation who can react right now? If the threat is that big, you need the immediate action.

In fact, who is to say that didn't happen? The Klingons could have talked with the Federation about the problem. While the Feds would not be willing to outright attack the Tholians (no need on their part), they would probably agree to fight with the Klingons against the Tholians if the Tholians went any farther. The Klingons wouldn't be entirely happy with this (they want their worlds back), but it would at least give them assurances of help if the Tholians were only a vanguard.

Anyway, back to our rogue Admiral. We have already dismissed Alan's "slighted" admiral because the ESS would stomp him immediately. I also imagine that if the Admiral screwed up as badly as JT postulates, the ESS would remove him immediately, too. Just because the admiral can't go home does not mean his crew cannot. And the ESS is there to ensure that they do, in fact, go home, whether the admiral is in the brig or in the morgue.

That ESS issue that Petrick raised is a really, really hard one to get around. Outside a lone ship, I don't see how you can either purge or subvert and entire fleet's ESS contingent. There is just too many of them, and they are extremely difficult to subvert.

To get the screw up JT mentions, you need the ESS to be complicit in it. And even just having the ESS head complicit doesn't do, as he would be removed, too. (That is the beauty of an organization like the ESS. It isn't leader driven. If your leader fails, replace him.) You would have to have the majority of the ESS complicit to get them to turn, too. The ESS is a really hard nut to crack to make this work.

So, I have been talked out of the rogue admiral.

I am just going with scattered survivors, of which a small number of ships are rescued by the Romulans. From there they get the technology and expertise of some surviving engineers. (While warriors may not be swayed by creature comforts, I doubt the engineers would resist.) That gets me what I want, even if the grand sweep is gone. I can accept that.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 04:06 pm: Edit

Mike,

Why would he have to subvert the ESS? Why not assassinate them? If he does manage to subvert the leader, he knows who most of the ESS personnel in his fleet are, before he ever makes a move. (There might be some who even the leader doesn't know, precisely to guard against something like this. But I'm not convinced that it's plausible there would be enough to stop the plot, if it were sufficiently well planned.) It would be a risky move certainly, but I'm suggesting our would-be Kaius Kulius Kaesar is a man who would take such risks if the reward for success were carving out an empire of his own. And he is charismatic enough to get others to go along with him, especially veterans who have served with him on previous campaigns.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 04:37 pm: Edit

Mike West:

The basic history seems to indicate that there was no prepared Klingon invasion fleet in the area occupied by the Tholians. The Klingons had probed the Romulans, marked them for conquest, and were building the logistics network to support the invasion, but had not actually begun assembling the invasion fleet.

Y79 Tholians arrived but the Klngons are unaware of this, currently being engaged in the first Klingo-Kzinti war.
Y82 First Klingo-Kzinti war ends.
Y83 First documented encounter with Tholians.
Y84 Klingons attack Hydrans
Y87 Klingons complete conquest of Hydrans.
Y88 Second Klingon-Lyran war over spoils of the Hydran conquest.
Y89 Romulans attack Tholians.
Y91 Second Klingon-Lyran War ends.
Y92-102 The Great Klingo-Tholian War.

The Klingons were making plans and preparations to attack the Romulans, but had not assembled an offensive fleet for the project. Indeed, it is likely most of the Klingon ships in the area were just a defensive fleet, and probably mostly D3s/F3s given the low level of threat of the Romulans and the belief that the Federation was more or less politically neutralized. The Klingon fleet was tied up fighting first the Kzintis, then spent a year building up to attack the Hydrans, then was tied up fighting the Lyrans.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 04:44 pm: Edit

SPP,

I was going from the introduction to Y1 which specifically mentioned much of the remaining D3s and F3s being destroyed by the arriving Tholians. I took that to be the invasion fleet, but I could have misunderstood.

However, that means my revised plan works well enough. The Tholians got sloppy and some Klingons and ships got away. Some are rescued by the Romulans. Story proceeds from there. No more rogue admiral.

Alan,

Go read SPP's responses when I made the exact same suggestions. You can't "just kill off" the ESS. It doesn't work like that.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 05:42 pm: Edit

Nobody expects the ESS.

Our main weapon is fear . . .

Fear and surprise . . .

Our two main weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless determination . . .

Three, our three main weapons are fear, surprise, ruthless determination, and fanatical devotion to the empire . . .

We'll go out and come in again.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Mike,

I did read SPP's responses. Two points...

1. My initial post on this matter was in direct response to John Trauger's statement that

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Quote:

If you want a rogue admiral, what you need is a screwup.

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By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 06:29 pm: Edit

One final thought, at least for now - if the "rogue admiral" idea is a non-starter (and I'm not crazy about it anyway), another possibility might be that the Klingon ships that made contact with the Romulans were crippled survivors of a disastrous encounter with the Tholians. If the encounter took place in the "Eastern" part of Tholian space, severe battle damage (perhaps including dropping the warp engines and disengaging by sub-light evasion, and later using impulse-generated non-tactical warp) might explain why they had no hope of returning to Klingon space. But just maybe their ships would hold together long enough to reach the Romulans - and what other choice did they have?

By Terry "Full Stop" O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 06:31 pm: Edit

Alan, you have to remember that the Wehrmacht and Soviet political commissars were using 1940s technology to do their spying. The ESS is using 26th century tech, so a lot of it is automated and invisible. Klingons have no concept of personal privacy; they know that any and all of their actions can be recorded and reviewed by the ESS.

Also, an ESS officer will generally not interfere in the actual command of a military unit. They will wait and gather evidence, and when they feel they have a case for a pattern of corruption,then they make an arrest (source: article on the ESS in Cap Log). But deliberately ignoring an order to return to Klingon space would probably trigger an immediate arrest (it's mutiny, after all!)

As seen in the story Mutiny on the Demonslayer, a charismatic (and perhaps megalomaniac!) commander like Commodore Valgan could subvert the ESS command on his ship, and kill or subvert most of the ESS spies in the crew that he knows about. There would still be ESS spies amongst the crew that the chief of ESS did not know of, enough perhaps to commit acts of sabotage at critical moments. In addition, there'd be a lot of crew who would resist the plot, and they would need to be killed or captured. I'm not sure that, after such a "intra fleet civil war", there'd be enough crew left to make the Klingons a viable fighting force. You don't need enough ESS everywhere to make mutiny impossible, just enough to make it difficult to attempt and unlikely to succeed.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 06:43 pm: Edit

That looks to be Mike's current working scenario.

I'm still holding out of an EY Smarba given the passive attitude toward the tholians the Feds took. If word of the Tholian incursion gets to the Klinks at Y80, they'll have time to prepare a grand strategy against he tholians resembling their General War strategy against the Feds.

By Terry "Full Stop" O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 09:02 pm: Edit

So if the scenario we want is
1. Roms get tactical warp early
2. They also get Kestrel ships

Suggest the following scenario:

Gorn raid fails & Romulans get tactical warp. This results in a lot more threat to the Gorns and Federation. The Feds are forced to move more ships from the Klingon border to the Romulan border. The Klingons make diplomatic contact with the Romulans, since it is now impossible to conquer them. The Klingons sell some technology to the Romulans, since the Romulans are no immediate threat and Masked Romulan ships are able to "blockade run" Tholian space. The border dispute happens between Klingons and Federation as happened historically, but Star Fleet is stretched thinner and the Klingons make more headway into the Federation. Sensing that victory is possible if the Romulans also attack, the Klingons sell them some older ships as a diplomatic bribe to get them to attack the Feds. Klingo-Romulan invasion is eventually defeated by Federation (and possibly Gorn allies operating in Fed territory against Roms), because of logistical difficulties. In particular, Roms don't have enough tactical warp freighters.

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 09:18 pm: Edit

SPP- "Nobody expects the ESS.

Our main weapon is fear . . .

Fear and surprise . . .

Our two main weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless determnation . . .

Three, our three main weapons are fear, surprise, ruthless determination, and fanatical devotion to the empire . . .

We'll go out and come in again."

That was hilarious, you should do an entire pythonesque humor page in Captain's Log maybe a Lyran who wants a live and tasty Hydran returning it to the shop because it's dead, or a Federation Lawyer goes to an Orion company to purchase an argument and only gets contradiction. :+)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 09:36 pm: Edit

Actually, the most obvious means of getting a Klingon ship to the Romulans and having the Tholians involved is a badly damaged ship which mutinies and disengages. It is not Klingon officers who deliver the ship, it is Klingon subject races. They would have killed any Klingons on the ship, which eliminates most chances of a surviving ESS plant (there are, no doubt, some ESS types among the subject races, for a variety of reasons including being "true believers", but ultimately in the face of a successful mutiny they might be inclined to go along).

Frankly the whole scope of Mike West's plot is that he is fixated on a Klingon ship being delivered by a Klingon and utterly ignoring the subject race mutiny route.

I am not saying that it is the only option, just that to me it is the most obvious, and by its definition the ship Mike West could deliver can be virtually any ship available at the time, to include a dreadnought.

He might have a charismatic mutineer who keeps the rest of the crew from killing all the Klingons so that some of them might, after . . . shall we say "intense questioning" by Romulan intelligence might give up secrets the Subject race personnel do not know about Klingon warp engines.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 09:41 pm: Edit

Good point SPP.

That works both ways. A separated boom with skilled personnel could also be marooned in romulan space and "adopted" by the romulans.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 09:44 pm: Edit

Shawn Hantke:

I think anyone that knows me knows I have a sense of humor, albeit a warped and twisted one. Unfortunately it is also one that I have a difficult time accessing. I honestly could never make a living as a comedian. Just every once in a while I manage something that warrants a chuckle or two, although none of it is original. [See my comments on Caprica, i.e., I am certain that I was not the first person to draw the "soap opera" analogy and act confused about the title, i.e., "As the Cylon Turns" ("As the World Turns"), "All My Virtual Children" ("All My Children"), "The Edge of Annihilation" ("The Edge of Night").] You might ask SVC about doing a Monty Pythonesque humor section, but I suspect even he would wind up soliciting input (probably far better than my riff on "Noboy Expects the Spanish Inquisition").

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 11:30 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Frankly the whole scope of Mike West's plot is that he is fixated on a Klingon ship being delivered by a Klingon and utterly ignoring the subject race mutiny route.

---

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 12:53 am: Edit

Why not just say that the Tholians came to this galaxy a couple of years later, just after the Klingons began their invasion of the Romulans.

The Klingons have established a foothold into the territory when all of sudden their supply routes are cut off by the Tholian arrival. The Klingon admiral in charge of the invasion realizes that they're cut off from the empire and decides to gather up his forces and heads back for home to deal with this new threat to the empire. Leaving behind several logistics areas (repair yards) that, even though may have been ordered to be destoryed, were abandoned somewhat intact because of the rapid retreat.

The Romulans scour the remains and discover enough technical knowledge to re-engineer warp engines and have blueprint data so as to develop Kestral designs.

By Terry "Full Stop" O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 04:53 am: Edit

I can't see any way for the Romulans to produce kestrels. Even in the "real" history, they never did, instead preferring to come up with Klingon-influenced homegrown designs that used their unique tech better than the Kestrels. If they get warp, then they upgrade their existing designs because they are there.

The only way I can see is if the invasion is successful. The Romulan space assets are wiped out. THEN the Tholians arrive, cutting off the newly conquered territories from the main part of the Empire. Romulans revolt, capturing a large number of Klingon ships, and also technical knowledge (experts sent to upgrade Romulan industrial capacity). In preference to restarting production for their old-school ships, they start making Kestrels.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 11:00 am: Edit

Mike West:

Apologies. I DID (emphasis) think that you were fixated on a Klingon delivering a ship. The error is mine.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 11:32 am: Edit

SPP,

No problem.

Terry,

In the "real" history the Romulans seriously considered making the Kestrels. They just chose not to because they wanted ships that worked better with cloak. Well, there is no cloak (or veil or mask) here. The real question is, do you want slow, unmaneuverable ships with Pl-R, or fast, agile ships with Pl-G. A completely different question. (And note that my answer is "both", not just the Kestrels.)

That said, I agree that if they just "get warp" they will only make their WV/WE/BH/SNA type designs. (And I have a better way to get there.) That is why I want actual Klingons involved. They are that "ingredient K" that pushes the Romulans into making the Kestrels instead of just sticking with the WV/WE/BH/SNA. And it is also why I need for the D4/F4 designs to fall into Romulan hands. It is far more likely to use something already created than to reverse engineer something. Is that the likely path? No. But it isn't impossible either. (Again, even with the cloak disadvantages, the "real" Romulans still thought about producing Kestrels.)