Still nothing on the Qari question I asked about on Thursday?

Pity.

I guess I'll just play a different race and continue to look at them sideways.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, May 10, 2010 - 08:36 pm: Edit

They're a simulator race. Not many people are that proficient with them.

By John Smith (Johnsmith) on Monday, May 10, 2010 - 11:33 pm: Edit

The only C4 race I've used is the Frax. I don't think anyone in any of my play groups has ever tried them, honestly.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 01:00 am: Edit

Kevin, I've played Qari a bit, mostly duels. I would have to agree with your assessment. While some of the smaller Qari ships are viable, the mid to larger ones are underpowered, undergunned, and overpriced. If you are going to use them, either knock 10-15% off the BPV, or give them a couple more power and phasers.

I believe that this is the case whether you are playing duels, squadrons, or fleets. In duels, the lack of crunch is the issue. In larger battles, the KK will stack very nicely, but this is counterbalanced by the fact that your ability to fight out of any shield means less when you're dealing with fleet-sized volleys. An open map does give the Qari a significant boost, however.

The SGM is cute, but unlike wire-guided plasma, the special guidance doesn't mean much, especially when you only have one drone rack. As for Scuds, I've never used them because they seemed too complicated and silly.

If you balance the BPV a bit, they are a fun race to play. The turret adds an interesting challenge because you really have to think about where you are going in advance, else you will end up with the thing pointing the wrong way. The KK is a neat weapon, and if the Qari survives a few turns, can become quite terrifying. The race is almost viable, certainly more usable than many of the sims.

By Kevin Humar-Barrett (Cheethorne) on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 08:28 am: Edit

Thanks for the advice Andy. Most likely I'll not be playing the Qari in my game tonight. My group doesn't like making modifications to ships, which is fine, but it means that I'll be steering clear of over-priced ships.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 04:36 pm: Edit

Kevin Humar-Barrett:

I could not really provide any advice on the Qari because I lacked opportunity to fly them. I am an old hand with a lot of the original empires (up through the LDR), and am pretty familiar with a lot of the Early Monsters (off the top of my head I could not tell you what the last monster I actually have fighting experience against). I was never a "big fish" except by the standard of "biggest fish in the small pond". I have no doubt that the real masters (Bill Schoeller, Tom Carroll, Paul Scott, Kevin Block-Schwenk, etc.) would laugh at my feeble efforts (I am not making fun here, I am in awe of the skills of these gentlemen).

Happiness can come from being the local deadly guy.

How many people can claim they "bluffed" an Orion pirate into running from their large freighter? (The sad part is that it ended the Orion Pirate campaign. The rules for the campaign allowed the chance that any freighter the Orion encountered MIGHT be a Q-ship, and when the freighter turned into his attack and moved aggressively to engage . . . it was too much for him and he broke and ran . . . he was so rattled he never even fired at the "Q-ship", and never noticed that it did not fire at him, even when he started running.)

By John Swift (Sirbroadsword) on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 10:35 pm: Edit

@ Petrick

Hmm... I think one of my problems is that I'm still thinking in SFC terms, where all the cleverness you describe (exploiting minimum shields and turn breaks to turn things to your advantage etc.) just isn't avaliable... I might have been able to figure out the "launching and HETing" strat you used against that CW (whose captain, assuming he survived, should be executed with a spoon, just by the way), but I don't think I ever would have realised that I could, by exploting a turn break, shoot the Eel up and then drop my warp packs before it could bite me...

I am, however, still quite pleased with the time I defeated the Planet Crusher using optional the (S6.1) rules. It was the first serious scenario I had ever played (I'm not sure why I was so eagar to torture myself then), so I probably got some help from beginner's luck, but I think the SSD I still have sitting in Basic Set box, with mostly just its shield boxes coloured in, demonstrates that there may well be hope for me yet... Then again P.Crusher with (S6.1) turned on is pretty much just the Sunsnake scenario, isn't it? Hmm...

Anyway, I'll go with what you suggested when I get around to playtesting a Bobcat floatilla against the Eel and see what happens... Still, I think my original point that the scenario is wrong when it claims that all PFs would have an easy time against the Eel stands... If you have to use all sorts of cleverness to win and still might lose even then, that's not an easy time, is it?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 01:14 pm: Edit

John Swift:

Luck is always a factor.

Let's say the Moray Eel has been damaged to a point such that you need to score just ten points of damage for an "It's dead, Jim" die roll. You get ten consecutive tries to roll that "1",and fail to do so . . . goodbye colony.

This can happen (at least it has happened to me).

An example from another game.

I was involved in a "Richtofen's War" campaign.

I made "ace" by volunteering for all the "Balloon Busting" missions. The balloons counted as "aerial kills" for ace status even though they could not maneuver because you had to survive their flak defenses.

Ace status gave me a die roll modifier, which soon got me double ace status (which increased the modifier) and led to triple ace status (I was pretty easily downing enemy aircraft as a result).

One day, on my way to quadruple ace status, I bounced a German observation plane and its escort. The escort aircraft was considerably faster than my plane, but I blew past him to make a firing pass on the observation plane. The observer got off a burst as I went past.

The effect of the observer's burst was a "critical hit" which "temporarily" jammed my controls. I was required to fly in a straight line (at level altitude) until I rolled either a "1" or a "2" to free my controls.

I no longer remember for sure how many times I rolled to free my controls. Something like ten or more times, while the escort plane (which, as noted, was faster than my plane) overhauled me and shot me down.

I had good luck that the critical was a "minor" one (if he had rolled snake-eyes, I would have been killed outright) and I had time to run and clear my controls, but my luck doing so was really, really, REALLY bad.

So, the fact is that the Moray Eel is killed by a "random die roll", i.e., you have to roll that "1", and you might do it the first try, but you also might never do it.

By John Swift (Sirbroadsword) on Friday, May 14, 2010 - 01:24 am: Edit

"I no longer remember for sure how many times I rolled to free my controls. Something like ten or more times, while the escort plane (which, as noted, was faster than my plane) overhauled me and shot me down."

Wow, that's gotta suck... :-(

By Dennis Surdu (Aegis_777) on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 12:06 am: Edit

I have a general question about play balance. As an experienced palyer, I generally find playing two smaller ships (for example) against a single larger one to be a fair fight. I admit you are required to often think further ahead with the small fleet, but if the ships are kept in a tight group, they can easily mitigate any serious advantages the player with the single ship might have (ECM comes to mind). Does anyone care to offer their view on the matter?

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 10:01 pm: Edit

Well that depends on the ship. By this I mean a lot of big ships can do serious damag to one of the two smaller shps and then mitigate damage from the otehr before it can kill it next turn. As well some with unique damaging abilities can similarly crush one while not allowing the otehra good shot.

Ie take for example an ISC CC vs a D5/F5 combo. With 2 PPDs it can internal an F5 from R15(ading in 8 P1s as well) with PPDs nearly strippig all weapons and then just throw torps at the D5 while it reloads.

Or at R8 a C7 can jut throw 20 internals to most destroyed while using drones on the other ship to aleviate the return fire. So most big ships have a slight advantage in the 10 to 15% of BPV range.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 12:13 pm: Edit

Dennis Surdu,

I meant to respond to your post earlier but didn't get around to it. I agree with Kerry that it depends a lot on the ship. I think there are some cases in which 2 small ships are a good match against one larger one of comparable BPV, but I don't think it's true as a general rule.

One inherent advantage that big ships of some empires have is that they will have better weapons than the smaller ships. Kerry already mentioned PPDs, which are only carried by cruisers or larger ships. But that's not the only example. In this galaxy (as opposed to M-81, the Tholian home galaxy) only ships of cruiser size or larger carry the web caster. A Command Module operating independently would be the sole exception. But a CoM his so power-deficient that it is very vulnerable when not attached to a rear hull. Smaller Tholian ships could still carry snares, but those are far less effective than a true caster.

A similar dynamic occurs with the plasma-using empires. SC4 ships carry type-F plasma torpedoes, and a few of them can carry type-G torpedoes. But I can not recall any non-X SC4 ship that carries type-S torpedoes, to say nothing of type-Rs.

The balance is also affected by the tactical situation and the rules being used. For example, you didn't mention in your post whether your games are generally played on a fixed map or a floating map. The advantage of a cruiser with type-S or type-R torps, compared to 2 small ships with type-F or type-G, is more pronounced in the latter case. The same could be said of a cruiser with range-30 disruptors compared to 2 small ships with the same total number of disruptors, but limited to range-15.

The advantage of larger ships possessing inherently superior weapons doesn't apply to every empire. Small Federation and Hydran ships have exactly the same weapons as big ships do. And 2 small ships may have as many, or even more, such weapons as one large ship. But the advantage applies strongly for some empires.

Just my .02 quatloos worth...

By Robert Gamble (Robertgamble) on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 01:51 pm: Edit

It's all situationally dependent of course. I recently created a scenario involving a Cuirassier and Hunter Frigate (Hydrans) taking on a small convoy and a Lyran Leopard Destroyer. In that case, splitting up the two ships was viable when engaging the Leopard because of the Hellbore (and the victory conditions).

I think in most cases and straightforward duel type scenarios with a 2-3 small ships against a bigger one, keeping the small ships together (same hex if possible - until one's about to blow up) is a better option. However, I've also toyed with the idea of a 'string' formation, particularly if you have a small ship which has impressive firepower (the Fed DD at WS-3 comes to mind). The big firepower ships should probably be a few hexes behind the other ships, but the approach should be designed so that all your ships stay on the same shield. The idea would be to do serious damage to the facing shield of the enemy ship with the lead ships, forcing the enemy ship to turn off due to the threat of the higher firepower. This trades one combined attack for a beneficial position, and if done right could wreck both a front shield and flank (preferably rear) shield to limit the bigger ship's maneuvering for the rest of the game. If the big ship keeps coming, then it gets Mizia-d.

It still may be the case that keeping all ships together would be best, but I keep trying to find viable tactics that don't require the boring superstack. ;)

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 02:21 pm: Edit

Yeah but Robert the problem when splitting up your forces is that it is easy for your opponenet to use spd to keep one section of your forces a suboptimal firing range and just overrun the other.

For your lyran DD example having an 80 point ship vsa 60 and 50 point ship means the DD is outmatched by 30% of it's BPV so I'm not sure how any tactics help much there. I mean the DD is pretty much at a disdvantage unless the opponent splits up.

If normally you have a hammer ship(Fed DD) and a larger ship on your side it actually is best to lead with the larger ship(to draw fire) and then let the DD come in to lower the hammer. If you lead with the DD it's too easy to just whack it hard and then run from the less dangerous ship not fearing it's retribution as much.

In all these cases I am not implying the bigger ship survives unscathed. But taking 10-15 internals on a big ship means it lose some p3's and hull. While the big ship gets 30 or so nternals on the smaller ship meaning its power curve just got tanked and it is seriously hurt.

The big ship can run a turn repairing it's p3s and come in on a different shield now facing a crippled ship and it's artner. So the next run in the other ship gets hurt bad again etc. Rinse and repeat.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 07:07 pm: Edit

Kerry, you forgot that small convoy with the Lyran (3-4 freighters evens the combat BPV a bit or tips it in the Lyran's favor)...whichs allows the Lyran to use his ESG as a hellbore sponge but that still leaves 4 fusion beams for close range work.

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 03:12 am: Edit

Well actually Stewart if the lyran has like 2 smalle freighters with shuttles out I doubt the hydran is going for fusion range.

I normally assume most players look and state a lyran DD with 2 small freighters and their 2 shuttles means they won't come into close range.

Although I really dislike the the use of ships that are not combat worthy(small frieghters) to eat up BPV in handicaping the lyran DD.

I mean by the same token having 6 small armed freighters and a DD of any type vs a KLI C7 means that the only thing the DD player is doing is trying to escape the freighters. The battle is lost before it has begun. Using freighters as an "equalizer" is a totally lame attempt at abusing the rules system.

I mean really a B10 plus escort ships of 3 D5s against a DN and 5 large freighter and 5 small freighters means a total rout. Why do those not in campaign situations use freighters to handicap their opponents is beyond me.

I mean for the same useless usage try a Large auxilary carrier with full fighters but not actually having any seekers or reloads of any type take on an equivelant bpv force. The carrier is BPVed per having full supplies but handicapping it makes it less than useless. I mean pedantic usages such as this highlight the spurious usage or lengths some will go to gain an advantage over an opponent.

By Robert Gamble (Robertgamble) on Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 10:03 am: Edit

I really wasn't aiming for a specific discussion of the scenario, just pointing out that there are times and ship combos where splitting up is viable (or necessary).

For those interested (and I won't go into too many details as the scenario has been submitted to ADB - needs a couple of minor fixes which I need to get off my duff and actually do), the thing that makes the freighters less of a liability is the Base Station they're trying to get under the P4 umbrella of while being escorted by said Lyran.

By Sidney G. Kanouse (Konus67c7) on Tuesday, June 08, 2010 - 10:51 am: Edit

I was going through some SSDs the other day and decided to make a list of good one on one ship battles. These are mostly found in basic set and advanced missions. I call this "Good Fights, part one".

Kzinti FF-Klingon E4
Kzinti CS-Klingon D6
Fed. CL-Klingon D6
Fed. DD-Klingon D6
Fed. FFG-Klingon F5
Rom. KR-Gorn CA
Kzinti CC-Klingon D7C
Tholian PC-Klingon E4
Rom. WE-Gorn CL
Rom. K7Rb-Gorn BC
Rom. K4Rb-Thol. PC
Rom. K5Rb-Thol. DD
Klingon D7-Kzinti CA/BC
Fed. CC-Klingon D7C
Fed. NCL-Klingon D5
Fed. NCL-Rom. SpHA
Rom. KRb-Thol. CA
Rom. SEA-Fed. FFG
Klingon E4-Hydran Hunter
Wyn Orca CW-any CW
Wyn ZFF-Klingon E6

There are plenty more of these, feel free to add on to this list. Let's have a good clean fight.

By Michael Bennett (Mike) on Tuesday, June 08, 2010 - 12:26 pm: Edit

Fed DD vs. Klingon D6???

The Fed gets maybe one good shot, and that's only if the Klingon lets him get close enough.

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Tuesday, June 08, 2010 - 01:49 pm: Edit

Sidney,

First of all allow me to commend for great work done. One of the continual problems I hit is good 1:1 pickups when there's a gap in campaign play. Tourney cruisers are great, but they can get a little stale and while very balanced, they often result in ships that don't QUITE fly the way that the actual ships do.

Second, I reposted your list to our group's discussion board (most of the group doesn't follow the SFB Boards) and we had a quick question come up. You mark refits in some cases. Did you take battle year into account? Between carronade and drone speeds, it could change matchups. Many of them won't matter with the list as posted, but in the case of disr-light Kzinti vs. heavy-laden Fed/Klink drone speed becomes a factor.

Third, while I was posting this a discussion from the Klingon Tactics board from this morning came back to mind. Had you considered fixed vs. floating in these discussions? Some matchups are weighed differently based off of the room you have to run in.

Thanks again for the list!
Mike

By Sidney G. Kanouse (Konus67c7) on Tuesday, June 08, 2010 - 07:22 pm: Edit

I admit that I did not take into account refits, fixed or floated map, or drone improvements. I usually look at damage output, shields, turning and burning, etc. I also take into consideration what ships are usually out on patrol and would they run into each other. For example, it is quite likely that a Fed. DD on patrol picks up a Klingon "something" on the wrong side of the border, he goes to check it out, oh no it's a friggen D6. If things go south, does he fight or run? A careful Fed. DD captain can give a D6 a good tussle. I look at it this way, space is not "fair". Tourney cruisers have their place, but in space the ships are not always equal, and no one can hear you scream, Bwahaha! Okay, sorry. A Fed. FF could easily be on patrol and run into a Rom. SpHA, not a fair fight, but s**t happens. For example my friend and I are doing an Alpha-Magellanic one on one soon. A Fed. CB v/s a Baduvai CS with all but the mech link refits. They are 8 points apart in BPV, but I believe the Fed. is packing more punch. An unlikely matchup but sometimes it's as easy as wondering how two ships would matchup, and then fighting them. I'll let you know how it goes.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Tuesday, June 08, 2010 - 07:59 pm: Edit

Sigh. Reposted from the Battle Reports thread.

"Here are what I consider 'The Classic Fights'.

All of these fights use the setup in the Basic Set scenario The Duel, with following mods:

Year is Y150 unless otherwise specified.

No Commander's Option Points. This means no t-bombs, modified drones, etc.

Fixed map.

The Match-up's:

Klingon F5 vs Fed FF.
The Fed is a smaller ship with a BIG hammer. The F5 is a good destroyer....but has a glass.....butt.

Klingon E4 vs Fed POL.
This is one of the great frigate fights of all time (the POL is actually a light frigate, you know...)

Fed CA vs Klingon D7.
The classic. Still one of the best.

Fed CL OR DD vs Klingon D6.
Strange fight. The Fed CL is abit outgunned, but has more power than the DD...while the DD has, technically, more firepower....but fights more efficiently by NOT overloading its torps. The D6 commander has energy to spare, but lacks crunch power....

Fed DD vs Kzinti CL.
2 oddball ships fighting it out. The scenario 'The Stasis Box' is the classic set-up, with a twist. The Fed DD is a light cruiser in disguise, while the Kzinti ship is undergunned...until the refits, anyway.

Lyran DD vs Klingon F5.
For those that think the F5 isn't a destroyer...think again.

Lyran FF vs Klingon E4.
A good match-up for the E4.

Klingon E3 vs Kzinti FF.
A surprisingly good fight. Can turn into a real nail-biter.

Fed CA vs Gorn CA.
Good training scenario for new plasma players.


The Classic Romulan Fights:
These are all post-Smarba, obviously.

Fed CA vs Rom KR.
Good for newbie Roms. Cloaking isn't a very good idea, however, even if he DOESN'T have t-bombs.Also, note that with no CO points, the Rom does NOT have an NSM.

Fed CL vs Rom WE.
THE classic fight. Good training scenario for Rom newbies to learn the cloaking rules.And the WE DOES have an NSM...heheh.

Fed DD vs Rom WE.
Different dynamic than the Fed CL...but can be even more deadlier if underestimated by the Romulan captain.

Replacing the WE with a BH in the above battles
results in more fluid battles that emphasize mobility over 'sub-hunting'. Plus, the BH is very fun to fly. Like the Fed DD, it's actually a CL in disguise...."

Oh, and the Fed DD vs the D6 isn't anywhere near as lopsided as you may think. That Fed DD has more firepower than the D6...you just have to know how to use it correctly....

By Michael Bennett (Mike) on Tuesday, June 08, 2010 - 09:43 pm: Edit

I like the matchups! And I like the clarification about the philosophy that sometimes matchups are not fair.

And I really like the Y.150 time period. Middle Years in FC.

What was the reason the Fed DDM was not included?

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 01:09 am: Edit

'What was the reason the Fed DDM was not included?'

For the same reason the Fed CA(M) wasn't included; it doesn't exist.

By Michael Bennett (Mike) on Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 08:26 am: Edit

What?! Is the DDM just a FedCom thing?