X2 ph-3 and other small defensive weapons
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: OLD X2 FOLDER: X2 ph-3 and other small defensive weapons
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By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 02:55 pm: Edit

MJC-

You are missing the "Cheap Kill" advantage of ADD's if it kills the drone at range 3...no further effort need be expended on the incoming drone...and if you miss you have the ability to target it with another system (such as a phaser or type IX) at range 2 or 1 hex...

Jeepers, use your own math..at range 2 or 3 ADD's kill 5 time out of 6 shots...thats a 85% success rate.

for the 15% that miss, you still have the other options available for use.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 03:05 pm: Edit

Not to mention that:

ADD's can fire more than once per impulse.
ADD's are auto kills.
ADD's are unaffected by EW.
ADD's cannot be intercepted, tractored, shot down, outrun, or avoided.
An ADD launcher carries more rounds and reloads than any E rack or G rack carrying dogfight drones.

Just what else do you need?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 08:40 pm: Edit

Quote:

Jeepers, use your own math..at range 2 or 3 ADD's kill 5 time out of 6 shots...thats a 85% success rate.


I'm sure we both know by now that it's 83.33%!


Quote:

ADD's can fire more than once per impulse.


If you have two add racks ( GX-racks ) and X-Aegis, then I supose so...but doubling the GX-racks doubles the number of type IXs that can be chucked out.

It the GX-rack doesn't get the ability to fire type IXs at E-rack rates than yes you'ld be nuts not to use ADDs.


Quote:

An ADD launcher carries more rounds and reloads than any E rack or G rack carrying dogfight drones.


That's not true of the GX-rack.


I would like best of all for the G2X-rack and the E2X-rack to be able to switch from ADDs to type IXs (and back) in a matter of impulses as that would grant a fantastic ability to defend against drones.


Quote:

Just what else do you need?


If someone is using MW drones to kill my ECM drone than an ADD won't be very good at killing all the kill vehicles...if a type IX kills it before the release point then they all die then and there...also if I'm fighting a Ph-1 swordfish drone set to R4 an ADD ( as an ADD currently stands ) won't be able to stop the damage ( although it is only a handful of points of damage ).

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 09:31 pm: Edit

MJC-

If all you are worried about is some one using MW drones to kill your ECM drones, then you worried about the wrong part of the battle.

The MW drones do not represent a material danger to your ship (as say drones with explosive payloads with some multiple of 6, 12, 18 or 24 points of ship damage potential.)

if you are in a postion where there are more drones targeted on you than you have the ability to destroy, then the issue really is not the possibility the ADD might miss...the problem is the ship commander putting his ship in a dangerous place without a plan to deal with the challenges.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 08:02 am: Edit

Quote:

If you have two add racks ( GX-racks ) and X-Aegis, then I supose so...but doubling the GX-racks doubles the number of type IXs that can be chucked out.



And how many ships are going to actually carry two of these racks? Only the biggest ones, right?Further, why should I have to double the racks to provide adequate drone defense when one normal GX rack can do the same job? Especially if ADD's get a new to-hit table, which many agree they should?

Quote:

It the GX-rack doesn't get the ability to fire type IXs at E-rack rates than yes you'ld be nuts not to use ADDs.



Even if it does, it still isn't enough. Think about it. My Klingon XD7 with one of these GXE-Rack things faces off against a Kzinti XBC who carries six drone racks of some kind...take your pick what. At range 15 or so, he fires off six drones at me. These are X-drones that travel at speed 32. Because it can fire only once every eight impulses, my X E-rack is going to get to shoot down a whopping two of these drones before they've closed with my ship, unless I run like hell to keep them at bay for the entire next turn...and that's only if I hadn't already fired a drone of my own, and the rack was free to fire as soon as possible. Even with two such racks, I'd still only get four of them.

Now, with my trusty X ADD rack or GX rack, I could easily knock down all six, and not have to change speed or course. The point? That E-racks are not the best or most efficient anti-drone platform out there...that's what Anti Drones are for. E racks work great against fighters or other attrition units, but against drones - particularly top speed X-drones - they just can't fire fast enough to handle even a medium sized drone wave. Oh, sure, you can pick off the rest of the drones with tractors or phasers. But why would anyone put themselves in such a situation when a plan old ADD rack or GX rack would do the job so much better?

I suppose you could lobby for some kind of super drone rack that will do both; that is, fire ADD's or type IX's at E-rack rates, with the freedom to switch between modes at no penalty. I doubt it'll happen, though...that's just a bit too much, even for X2.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 09:56 pm: Edit

Quote:

ADD's can fire more than once per impulse.


Before you start harping on about how many ships will have 2 GX-racks on their hull ( and I'ld commend you take a look at the Fed CX, DDX and FFX as they are ) explain the above...for one GX-rack.


Quote:

Because it can fire only once every eight impulses, my X E-rack is going to get to shoot down a whopping two of these drones before they've closed with my ship, unless I run like hell to keep them at bay for the entire next turn...and that's only if I hadn't already fired a drone of my own, and the rack was free to fire as soon as possible. Even with two such racks, I'd still only get four of them.

Now, with my trusty X ADD rack or GX rack, I could easily knock down all six, and not have to change speed or course. The point? That E-racks are not the best or most efficient anti-drone platform out there...that's what Anti Drones are for. E racks work great against fighters or other attrition units, but against drones - particularly top speed X-drones - they just can't fire fast enough to handle even a medium sized drone wave. Oh, sure, you can pick off the rest of the drones with tractors or phasers. But why would anyone put themselves in such a situation when a plan old ADD rack or GX rack would do the job so much better?


Can you do the math on that.
Assuming they're in two waves, launch from the CX-racks and the BX-racks of said Kzinti That's a four drone wave and two drone wave.
The ADDs fire at R3 and R2 on the four drone wave, killing 1.16 each or 2.33 into total against that wave. Against the two drone wave the 2.33 that will be probably be killed can't actuall be more than 2 and therefore we can expect only 4.33 drones to be killed on the way through...those two GXE-racks killed 4 remember and didn't fire upto 8 ADDs, just four type IXs.

ADDs and EX-racks have a different effect on the game...the EX-rack cause drones to be held in the enemy ship for longer and the ADDs cause the drones to be bunched up.


Quote:

I suppose you could lobby for some kind of super drone rack that will do both; that is, fire ADD's or type IX's at E-rack rates, with the freedom to switch between modes at no penalty. I doubt it'll happen, though...that's just a bit too much, even for X2.


Well that's what I think would be the best solution.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 08:07 pm: Edit

Quote:

Can you do the math on that.



Yes...apparently better than you can. I notice you left out the fact that ADD's can fire at range one.

What will you do when the launching ship is too close for you to fire more than one piddly type IX drone? And that doesn't have to be very close; not at the speeds these drones travel. I've said it before; I'll say it again. ADD's are the best anti-drone system you can get. They're cheap, fire quickly, they auto-kill any drone they hit, they aren't affected by EW, you can fire them while performing EM, and with X-aegis you get plenty of flexibility. I mean, sure, some kind of uber-rack that's part E rack, part G rack, and part ADD would be great; unless you're a Kzinti, because any ship carrying one - or worse, two - of these racks, in combination with phasers, is now completely drone proof against all but the most massive drone wave. Why would anyone want this to part of X2? Must we improve everything to the point of ruination? What is this exactly the "best" solution to?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 10:02 pm: Edit

Quote:

Yes...apparently better than you can. I notice you left out the fact that ADD's can fire at range one.


I'ld be glad to add R1 into the calculation of X2 got full Aegis but I'm not conivced it will, I seem to be in the nimority on that.


Quote:

What will you do when the launching ship is too close for you to fire more than one piddly type IX drone? And that doesn't have to be very close; not at the speeds these drones travel.


A couple of things, 1) I'll smite the ship with heavies 2) I'll fire off my GX2-racks as ADDs, I can still load ADDs into a G-rack, I'm not proposing that ability be taken away.


Quote:

I've said it before; I'll say it again. ADD's are the best anti-drone system you can get. They're cheap, fire quickly, they auto-kill any drone they hit, they aren't affected by EW, you can fire them while performing EM, and with X-aegis you get plenty of flexibility. I mean, sure, some kind of uber-rack that's part E rack, part G rack, and part ADD would be great; unless you're a Kzinti, because any ship carrying one - or worse, two - of these racks, in combination with phasers, is now completely drone proof against all but the most massive drone wave. Why would anyone want this to part of X2? Must we improve everything to the point of ruination? What is this exactly the "best" solution to?


Well I think it's worth playtesting to see if the Combo weapon does kill drones like nobody's business.

For what it's worth I see Kzinti's as having Four Drone in an Unrefitted ship and refitting up to six ( on their XCA ) as the BCX and the CCX both already carry six drone racks.
I think the Kzinti XCZ would have a pair of CX2-racks ( which would be a six space C rack ), a pair of GX2 racks ( which if it could fire off type IXs too like all the other GX2-racks would need to be dealt with of the ship will die from server scouging ) and a Pair of BX racks that are themselves feed by the Lego-drone bay.
That's a massive 8 drones per turn ( using the GX2-racks to slug conventional drones ) and a massive 24 space on which to base your purchace of special drones.

An 8 drone wave ( if the ship moved at speed 31 for the right 12 impulses ) would very difficult for a pair of ADD racks to stop.


I would also like to point out that if a Fed XCA had only 8Ph-5s ( because she was unrefitted ) and if she could only fire rapid pulsed Ph-6 shots then she could get to bear at most 12Ph-6 shots ( unless she centerlined the drones ) which would because of the chance of only doing three points of damage, only be able to kill 6 type VII drones...incomparison to the 9 and Fed CX can kill with her rapid pulsed phasers.
X2 ships will need massive non phaser based defenses against drones ( even drones chucked by the Kzinti CMX ) and that means either drone GXE-racks based defenses or S-Bridge based ones or BOTH.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 10:07 pm: Edit

If the Ph-5 can rapid pulse as pairs of Ph-6s and trios of Ph-3s then this is less of a problem.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 07:30 pm: Edit

Here's my X2 ADD, which I've broken down and started calling CIWS:

(XErbn.CIWS) X2 Close-In Weapon System (CIWS)

1. HISTORY: Several races developed Close-In Weapon Systems (CIWS) to replace ADD systems in Y205. This advanced defensive weapon can protect against not only drones, but also against plasma torpedoes and even direct fire weapons. This represented an exponential improvement in fleet defenses and it wasn't surprising that the technology appeared across the Sector.

2. DESCRIPTION: There are four CIWS munitions available. Only X2 units can have CIWS racks. CIWS can be fired from CIWS racks or specific X2 drone racks. Use the Close-In Weapon System Table to resolve CIWS success rolls.

CIWS Munitions
TypeDesignationDescription
ABLAblativeCounter-Direct Fire
ADDAnti-DroneAnti-drone defense
APDAnti-PlasmaAnti-plasma defense
CHFChaffSeeking Weapon jammer

3. OPERATION: CIWS can be thought of as an X2 ADD except as modified below. A CIWS rack can fire any munition it is loaded with at a rate of one munition per impulse (or one per AEGIS pulse). X2 drone racks can fire CIWS munitions as defined by their respective rules.

ABL: This munition is an X2 exception to (E1.12). Ablative munitions are fired into a specific hex side immediately after the attacker has announced all DF weapons fire but before rolling DF weapon effects. The ablative burst lasts only that impulse and only affects DF weapons striking that specific hex side. On a successful CIWS roll (see Close-In Weapon System Table) the burst subtracts damage points from DF weapons hitting the affected hex side, at a rate of 2 damage points for DF weapons fired at two hexes or less away (true range) and 1 damage point from DF weapons fired greater than two hexes away (true range). More than one ABL can be fired into a specific hex side (to improve the chance of success), but only one successful roll will be effective.

ADD: This is the X2 ADD. On a successful CIWS roll, the target drone is destroyed (E5.21) or damage scored (E5.3). This is the default CIWS load. All CIWS munitions included in a unit's basic BPV are this type.

APD: This munition can only fire at plasma torpedoes. On a successful CIWS roll, use the Ph-6 table (Klingons use the Ph-3 table) to score damage against the target plasma torpedo using its true range. This is the default CIWS munition for units operating in plasma-enemy areas.

CHF: Chaff munitions are only fired into a specific hex sie against seeking weapons at a specific range. On a successful CIWS roll, 4 O-EW points are applied against each seeking weapon (friendly and enemy) within the chaff-firing unit's hex side whose tracking arc covers the chaff-firing unit and are within the true range rolled against. Each impulse after the chaff burst, the chaff burst's O-EW will reduce by 1 point. More than one CHF can be fired into a specific hex side (to improve the chance of success), but only one success roll will be effective.

4. NOTE: Default CIWS munitions can be replaced with desired munitions for 0.5 BPV which must be paid under (S3.2), or replaced with Type-XII dogfight drones for 0.75 BPV.

By Roger Dupuy (Rogerdupuy) on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 02:30 pm: Edit

RBN, I had an 'ablative' kinda itch for the X2 Klingon's defensive system replacement. Can you give a 'real game' example of the ablative munitions?

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 08:34 pm: Edit

An example:

A Federation XCA and Klingon XD7 are in battle and the XCA has closed to within 4 hexes of the XD7's #6 shield. The XCA fires all four fast-load photons with no overloads. All phasers were fired earlier to snipe down drones and batter the XD7's shields. The XD7 player elected not to reinforce his #6 shield as he was saving the power for his boom disruptor.

The XCA has no more DF weapons to declare firing so the XD7 player announces firing an ABL against the photon fire from each CIWS and rolls. The first result is a 5 (miss) and the second result is a 3 (hit). The second ABL bursts and covers the #6 shield.

The XCA player rolls for hits and results in a 5 (miss), a 2 (hit), a 2 (hit), and a 6 (miss). Consulting the photon table (using the standard chart for sake of argument) two standard photons would score 16 points of damage (8x2=16). At range four, an ABL provides 1 point of protection per DF weapon so 2 points are reduced from the photon barrage resulting in 14 points of damage.

The earlier Ph-5 fire scored 22 points against the XD7's #6 shield, leaving 14 shield boxes. The photon fire reduces the #6 shield to 0 boxes, but without the ABL the photons would've score internal damage.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 08:48 pm: Edit

Just out of curiosity, how many points do people think should be held in a Ph-6 cap?

I think since it fires for half the cost of a Ph-5 ( 0.75 points ) that a 1.5 point cap would be silly and therefore it'ld have a 2 point cap.


That being said I think 2Ph-6 are better than 1Ph-5 for yet another reason because you would be able to store 4 points of power in said caps instead of three.

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