Peace dividend. Yes. But yet they still managed a significant fleet, including battleships. To my way of thinking there had to be some underlying economic reason why GW tech ships were considered a better long term investment then X1 tech.

One possibility is durability. The Tholians built their ships to last; easily 100 years was expected out of a hull. Before the GW I think the target life expectancy was 30 years. During the GW some Alpha races were perfectly happy to build ships (including PFs) designed to wear out after 5 years. My point is maybe the added wear of X engines/strategic speed reduced the life expectancy of the hull too drastically to be considered a long term economic solution. The same can likely be said for all overbuilt classes like the BCH and HDW. Maybe the Alphas overcome this limitation. Maybe not. Ideally the answers should be considered and addressed in Loren’s Tholian history, but the answer may have far reaching implications on X2 and the trade wars.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 07:21 pm: Edit

Tos,

you're confusing terminology. The Tholians in the home galaxy did not have X1 technology ships as we know them. What they did have were ships with more advanced tech than the average GW ship. The web caster is a good example of such tech; it isn't what we think of as X1 tech, but it's highly advanced stuff. So, the bulk of the Tholian fleet was highly advanced. Just because it didn't include 3 point batteries or some of the other advances collectively recognized as X1 doesn't mean they weren't far ahead of GW ships. Exactly what that tech was is still undefined, because Loren hasn't finished his work yet. I know about some of it, and some of why they were pushed out of their galaxy, but not all. Suffice it to say all of this stuff will be addressed in an interesting manner you'll all enjoy.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 07:28 pm: Edit

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Quote:

One possibility is durability. The Tholians built their ships to last; easily 100 years was expected out of a hull. Before the GW I think the target life expectancy was 30 years. During the GW some Alpha races were perfectly happy to build ships (including PFs) designed to wear out after 5 years. My point is maybe the added wear of X engines/strategic speed reduced the life expectancy of the hull too drastically to be considered a long term economic solution. The same can likely be said for all overbuilt classes like the BCH and HDW. Maybe the Alphas overcome this limitation. Maybe not. Ideally the answers should be considered and addressed in Loren’s Tholian history, but the answer may have far reaching implications on X2 and the trade wars.

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By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 09:02 pm: Edit

Mike, I think you are making an equal and opposite assumption. You assume that since no Neo-Tholian Home Galaxy X-Ships have been published that they ships with excess warp and higher strategic speed did not exist. I assume that Home Galaxy ships that provided the equivalent strategic advantages and oversized warp engines we think of as part and parcel of X1 did exist in the Home Galaxy and were found to be too cost inefficient to operate in fleet strength during extended periods of peace.

It turns out you are right. (C3:R7.60B) “The equivalent of X-technology was never developed in that Home Galaxy.”

I drew my incorrect assumption from that fact that the Holdfast, not known for speedy technical evolution (this is the same group that struggled mightily to convert a PC into a DD), managed to quickly convert several ships to X-tech, including the NCX, only a few years after the arrival of the 312th.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 09:19 pm: Edit

If you look at the data already in the background you will notice this about M81 Tholians; the Mother of Invention is Necessity. Another thing that drives innovation is competition. In their heyday the Tholians had neither. There technology was more than adequate to serve their needs and ability to control their empire.

Whether you are highly advanced or not is relative. Remember, the Fed CA was the X-ship of its day when it first flew. The Tholian PC and Pol were wonder weapons for a time.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 11:15 pm: Edit

<HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT><P>It turns out you are right. (C3:R7.60B) “The equivalent of X-technology was never developed in that Home Galaxy.” <!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0>

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 11:53 pm: Edit

Why would the Tholian Home Galaxy even want X-ships? Faster, longer ranged ships make it easier for regional governors to move on the primary capitol. More powerful ships would also have the same effect of making it easier to overthrow the current central government. Both would play havoc with the stability that the THG had.

I like that the THG developed technology differently than the more localised groups. Instead of trying round-a-bout paths to justify having the THG invent something that mimics standard X technology, what would be so wrong if trying for a new concept that fits with the relative stability of the THG.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 04:35 am: Edit

I think I said that (more or less)

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 06:42 am: Edit

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An alternate idea is to take what that says litterly. The Alpha equivlent of X-Tech was not devloped in the THG. But something else equally or more advanced (recall they are at X2 in overall tech) is/was present.

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By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 04:30 am: Edit

Loren,

"Remember, the Fed CA was the X-ship of its day when it first flew."

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 05:01 pm: Edit

One of the few things we know about X2 is:
1) GW can be upgraded to X1
2) GW and X1 cannot be upgraded to X2

I'll add to that:
3) Homeworld Tholians never developed X1 ships.

Lets say for a moment that these are immutable truths. Where are the Tholians getting the design and production facilities necessary to build the from scratch hulls necessary to base X2 off?

To me a more likely path is the Tholians, who don't burn up tons of fuel patrolling a vast empire, upgrade all of their ships to X1 tech.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 05:28 pm: Edit

Tos,

Well, off the top of my head I would make a couple of responses.

1) I dispute that these are really "immutable truths". Once again I call everyone's attention to SVC's post, which, as far as I know, is the most recent thing he has said about X2. We know almost nothing about what X2 will be like because SVC hasn't made up his mind yet. About the only statement concerning X2 that I would be willing to regard as likely to be an "immutable truth" is that the X2 BPVs must be compatible with X1 and GW BPVs. Everything else is up for grabs.

2) Where did the Tholians get the design and production facilities to build PFs, a system that was never used in the Home Galaxy and which (presumably) would not have been programmed into their automated hull-casting equipment? And, at least as far as we know, the Tholians didn't employ "welded hull" designs in the Home Galaxy either, combining two or more PC hulls together to make cruiser or dreadnought class ships. But the Tholians in this galaxy figured out how to do it.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 06:16 pm: Edit

Trevor: be careful what you call attention to.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 06:20 pm: Edit

SVC,

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. If I misread your intent with that post, I apologize.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 06:41 pm: Edit

Alan; Ha! No, that wasn't the point. You posted a link, I clicked out of curiosity (dangerous to post links to things I said before), and updated the previous post. So the thing you think you linked to is different than it was when you thought you linked to it.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 06:49 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Alan said:
Where did the Tholians get the design and production facilities to build PFs, a system that was never used in the Home Galaxy and which (presumably) would not have been programmed into their automated hull-casting equipment?

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By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 07:17 pm: Edit

SVC,

Okay, got it.

Scott,

Well, it does indicate that the Tholians were able to produce hull forms they never produced in the Home Galaxy. I'm not sure what you're referring to with the Police Cutters, however. My understanding (I'll have to check R8 to be sure) is that those were (unlike PFs) also produced in the Home Galaxy. They weren't something new the Tholians came up with after arriving here.

Regarding X2, based on SVC's update to the post, I'll assume for purposes of this discussion that Tos is correct and that older X1 or GW ships can't be upgraded to X2. But the hull of the ship is the "box" that you put stuff (engines, weapons, sensors, etc.) in. It's that "stuff" that gives the ship its capabilities.

It seems to me that the question is whether the Tholians have the capability to produce a "box" that can hold X2 "stuff", even if they can't put that X2 stuff into an older box. Now there are several possibilities here. Maybe the X2 stuff puts too much strain on old hulls, but by using newly developed alloys the Tholians are able to use their automated hull casting equipment to produce hulls with the same external shape as the old hulls, but which can indeed use X2 stuff. Or maybe the answer is in the "Advanced Structural Integrity Fields" that many people have supported as an X2 technology. Perhaps an ASIF is so integral to the hull that key components must be installed as the hull is built. Thus an older hull could never be retro-fitted with ASIF but a newly built hull of exactly the same shape might have it. This would not be the same as a GW or X1 design being upgraded to X2 since the internal properties of the hull would be utterly different. It would instead be a new X2 design that had the same external shape as the older GW and X1 designs.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 07:40 pm: Edit

Read the Tholian Pol discription to find the answer of how they were albe to build them.

In short Pols are partial PC constructs. They get twice as many out as a PC.

You might assume that the Pol is the front end of a PC using a similar process as building a Com Module for a Neo-class vessel.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 09:48 pm: Edit

I do note from the R8 description that it says the design dates from Y115, suggesting that I am wrong about the Pol also having been used in the Home Galaxy.

Is my memory just just playing tricks on me, or is there information somewhere else that says it was used there as well?

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 01:12 am: Edit

Loren?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 01:45 am: Edit

No, this is a Holdfast developement.

I wrote the background for this unit... well to be totally accurate it's more like I wrote the thesis, having discovered the specific need, showing the lack of ability to adiquately patrol the borders and I described how such a unit could exist without changing the history and (more importantly) without affecting F&E! I had put together many separate discussions with SVC and SPP to come up with it. One was more than a year before when I proposed a scenario called "Sucker Punch". A short review made this scenario be made never to be. It involved a situation where a small Andro hide and got a shot off on a passing DN while still at high warp, crippling it. It was then confirmed (not just for me but for all SFU) that no ship EVER approaches ANYTHING at high warp where it is vulnerable. The next thing was when I wrote the CL28 story and was in discussion about how many Tholian ships I was using. SPP pointed out that I had nearly half the Tholian Fleet involved so I needed to adjust things a bit. Later when I was working on a back story I had a situation where I wanted to have a prominant Tholian killed by a young Tholians who had been brainwashed by the Klingons. My logic was faulty in MANY ways including that the rules state that there is absolutly NO piracy in the Holdfast and as such the borders are sealed and so the Klinglons could not sneek a brainwashed Tholian back into the Holdfast. (Further developement makes this even more unlikely but that is clasified... sorry.)

Then it hit me. I put together that the Tholians had such a small fleet then started adding up the parsecs of boarder that had to be totally covered by the PC and larger hulls. Perhaps there was some out posts but those could be destroyed and breached. The rule was NO secret breaches. SO there had to be something more. It just so happened that R8 was being started at the time and I began to formulate a solution. I realized that the Tholians could build a small craft that didn't have to confront the enemy head on. Consider the great fiction piece "The Return of the Hood". That had to slow to tactical or rosk destruction. On a stratigic scale tactical is vurtually stopped so all a small ship would have to do is get close enough toforce any intruder to slow to tactical and make a call for backup. It then stays ahead and far enough away to not have to engage directly, only keep the intruder at tactical speed. The Pol was born. I was going to make my own SSD but time was getting short on R8 and SVC felt it best to just design it himself. It would have been what it wound up as anyway since if I sent anything different it would be adjusted and redesigned until it was what it is. Just as well. I'm proud to have found the missing unit.

MY POINT HERE is that it was the specific need of the Holdfast that created the Pol. The Will had no need for such a vessel and when you run a whole galaxy you need vessels a bit longer ranged than a Pol. The conditions were just so different (as you all will see in time). So while there was any number of short ranged personal craft (yatchs etc) there was never a Pol class in Will history.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 10:12 am: Edit

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"Remember, the Fed CA was the X-ship of its day when it first flew."

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By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 08:07 pm: Edit

Per my 5:40 PM post in the "Tholian Background" thread of the Prime Directive RPG topic, here is why I disagree with Mike Grafton about X2 Tholians getting particle cannons.

First, there's the issue of tech-sloshing. By the time X2 rolls around, the Tholians will have been without particle cannon technology for roughly a century. That's long enough that, despite the fact that they had the tech once upon a time, it feels like tech-sloshing even if it technically isn't. I think it's esthetically more satisfactory, gives the game more "flavor", if in the later eras the particle cannon remains a Seltorian-only weapon.

But that's a matter of personal taste, which, we are told, non est disputandum. The more important reason in my opinion is that the Tholians reverting to particle cannons in the X2 era does not fit in well with established SFU history. Here's my rationale for believing that.

In the Early Years the Tholians arrive in this galaxy with a handful of small ships and the capability to build Patrol Corvettes, which are phaser-only. Their NDD and NFF ships have particle cannons and, though they are technology superior to anything else in Alpha, eventually get destroyed by superior numbers of larger ships. The Holdfast can obviously produce new phasers for its Corvettes but the Tholians need something more powerful. They organize a complex operation to steal disruptor technical data and reverse engineer those as the heavy weapons for their new (Archeo-Tholian) DD design.

Tholian engineers and technicians were already very familiar with the particle cannon. And more importantly, during the Early Years the particle cannon is far superior as a weapon. Even the Tholian DD, though an MY ship in other respects, cannot overload its disruptors during the EY period. It doesn't gain that capability until the Middle Years. But the NDD and NFF could overload their particle cannons. So not only did the particle cannon have a higher rate of fire than the EY disruptor, it had more crunch power as well, within 8 hexes. In spite of this, the Tholians organize their expedition to obtain the technology for an inferior weapon with which they are not familiar. The only plausible explanations for this are that either the Tholians couldn't build particle cannons or that disruptors were enormously easier to build, so much easier that the Tholians used them in preference to the (superior at that time) particle cannons.

Nothing relevant to the issue of Tholians and particle cannons occurs for several decades, when the Neo-Tholians arrive. They provide the Holdfast with the ability (after several years) to produce new web casters from scratch. Why could they not do the same for particle cannons? I don't know. But either they couldn't or else the effort to switch weapons production over to produce particle cannons would have been so disruptive to the Tholian industrial base that they didn't make a serious attempt. Such a disruption would be well worth it for web casters. But by this time, the tactical advantages of particle cannons over disruptors are more dubious. So what advantage would the Tholians have received if they disrupted their production capability in order to produce these weapons? Now I do think that an X-tech particle cannon is a bit better than an X-tech disruptor at short/medium ranges. But Tholian first generation X-ships still didn't use them, suggesting that either they couldn't build them or the industrial base repercussions were more serious than justified by the limited tactical advantages.

Perhaps by the X2 era the Tholian manufacturing technologies had improved to the point that conversion of production facilities was not a big deal. But I doubt it. It is much harder to convert a current real world factory producing a specific type of fighter aircraft to one making a completely different type of fighter aircraft than was the case in WWII. That may not be true for all high tech systems, but its true for a lot of them. Will X2 magically reverse this dynamic?

The only case I can see for X2 Tholians being willing to suffer the probable industrial base disruptions is if, at the X2 level, the particle cannon is again far superior to the X2 disruptor (as in the early years) and some improvement in industrial technology minimizes changeover/conversion disruptions.

It's possible...

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 08:12 pm: Edit

One comment on my claim in my previous post that

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Tholian engineers and technicians were already very familiar with the particle cannon.

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By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 08:16 pm: Edit

Alan, the main problem I see (besides having an operational PC) is that something in the PC system requires some rare element(s) that weren't available until a lot later (after they stated trading with their neighbors?) and by that time, using disruptors was a lot easier than trying to redo PCs...

(Note that 'PC system' includes the capacitor system that allows the PC to have more than one shot per turn, without that capacitor, the PC is worse than a disruptor!)