As the General War developed, fighters designed early in the war found their usefulness increasingly minimized. To combat this, and allow marginal combat edge against the newer fighters coming off enemy production lines, an enhanced sensor package was designed that allowed fighters an increased effectiveness in dogfights. The package came in the form of a targeting pod allowing enhanced off-boresight tracking and corresponding in-cockpit IHADSS equipment.

(J11.3#) DOGFIGHT POD: This pod increases the dogfight rating (J7.62) of the fighter by one point. Cannot improve the dogfight rating of a fighter with a '0' or negative rating.
(J11.3#1) CARRIAGE: Maximum of one per fighter. While a fighter design that entered service after Y173, or with a dogfight rating of '3' or higher, could carry such a pod, it would gain no benefit from doing so (the enhanced targeting and tracking sensors, or systems with similar capability, were already integrated into these designs).
(J11.3#2) AVAILABILITY: Maximum of one per fighter in a squadron; extras cannot be purchased as commander’s options.
(J11.3#3) ARMING: None required.
(J11.3#4) COST = 1 point.
(J11.3#5) YEAR of availability = Y175.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 09:38 pm: Edit

I really don't see how an improved sensor package is going to make any difference in a dogfight. From reading the rules, it seems to me that gaining advantage in a dogfight is all about getting the other guy in arc of your guns/missiles, and it's speed and maneuverability that does that.

Also, these pods are completely useless for Tholians and Hydrans, because under (J11.111) the DFR is reduced by one for each pod carried by a non-drone-armed fighter. Even a drone-armed fighter is going to have to give up a drone rail to carry it if it wishes to gain any benefit, and most fighters are going to be better off having a drone on that rail rather than a dogfight pod IMO.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 10:32 pm: Edit

Or you could just carry a phaser gun pod and shoot the guy at range 1, thus negating a need for a dogfight.

Since DFR is all about manueverability, speed, agility, etc, I don't see how a pod can 'raise' your DFR.....

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 11:34 pm: Edit

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From reading the rules, it seems to me that gaining advantage in a dogfight is all about getting the other guy in arc of your guns/missiles, and it's speed and maneuverability that does that.

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By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 12:00 am: Edit

BTW - Terry, while it's technically true that this is "useless for Tholians and Hydrans"...uhhh...are there ANY single-seat Tholian or Hydran fighters that would still be around in Y175 that don't already have a DFR of '3' or more? Remember that this can only take a fighter UP to 3, no higher.

Even the Stinger-1, available in Y134, has a DFR of '3', already. So...no, it doesn't help them. But they don't *need* it!

The Tholians are slightly worse off, of course. Their Spider-I (Y165, DFR 2) probably might still be hanging around in Y175, when this pod becomes available...but that's only a single case of really an obvious limitation.

And...it's...uhh...Tholians. They ALWAYS get the short stick on fighters, it's just not their strong point. They just don't have a lot of fighters to *begin* with, and they do get the Spider-II, after all, with a DFR a few years before this becomes available. (Again, yes, the Tholians don't get a lot of use out of this...this is not a problem, IMHO)

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 12:07 am: Edit

What if, instead of upping the DFR of the mounting fighter, it had some sort of adverse effect on that of an opposing craft instead?

Say if it had some sort of localised scrambler effect, or something.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 12:10 am: Edit

I don't think the SFU fighters have a bore sight. Their phasers are usually FA and the low power mode used in dogfighting is going to be the same arc (maybe not, I dunno). So to fire "off bore sight" would be to increase the fighter's phaser firing arc.
You'd than have to argue that the increase in arc can only work in low power mode.

But the thing is that typically the phaser arc is FA which means one fighter is clearly forward of the other. A small increase in arc isn't going to change that for most of the time.

Personally, I think SFB dogfighting should be played with Ace of Aces.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 12:19 am: Edit

RE: Tholian Fighters. Perhaps, but they have a bad-ass gunboat!

I might like to see a bonus for having dropped all pods and drones.

What old fighters could use is a single shot low power rear firing phaser that they can fire only when disadvantaged. Or maybe the ability to mount phaser pods backward? A special retrofitted rear firing pod mount?

Hmm, that's neat. Since the senor/scanners are primarilly forward the rear firing phaser pod (which could hold any pod) only gets a range of one (fine for dogfighting or a last ditch shot at a drone). Slows you down by one though (plus cost of retrofit and the pod).

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 12:36 am: Edit

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I don't think the SFU fighters have a bore sight. Their phasers are usually FA and the low power mode used in dogfighting is going to be the same arc (maybe not, I dunno). So to fire "off bore sight" would be to increase the fighter's phaser firing arc.

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By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 04:57 am: Edit

OK I hadn't checked the DFRs... so fair enough.

I'm still not convinced that fighters don't have good enough tracking as it is. They can target stuff tens of thousands of kilometers away, and yet their targeting gear is not good enough to target something so close that there's a chance of colliding with it [(J7.6621)]?!

I don't see anything in the dogfight rules which suggest dogfight drones can be launched at a target which is out of arc. (The can track a target out of arc of course as normal I'm sure.)

I think the proposed item is too expensive, should be 0.5 BPV or even cheaper given its limitations, and probably available earlier. Dogfighting just is not that important in SFB.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 06:03 am: Edit

It's an optional rule that rarely see's use.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 12:44 pm: Edit

For late-war fighters, sure, dogfighting sees pretty limited use.

When using somewhat older fighters against 'newer' fighters, it's not a bad tactic to drag them into a dogfight to stall them in their ship attacks, if nothing else. You cannot, after all, fire at something outside of the dogfight once you are in it.

So a pod like this makes sense to help these older fighters - now somewhat past their prime as superiority fighters in open space - have a chance at interception/defensive missions.

Certainly, most worlds will do their very best to update to newer fighter types (replacing F-4s with F-16s or F-20s, for example), but some just won't be able to afford that. A pod slung under the fighter to help it do better in dogfights (at the cost of some attack capability) provides some useful extension of the fighter lifespan. (And, as a pod, if the fighter is NOT going on a CAP or fighter sweep mission but a ship assault or something...you can just leave it off, and put the Type-I back on the rail. Flexibility!)

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 01:00 pm: Edit

The best thing 'older' fighters can do vs newer fighters is mount RALADs/dogfight drones.

Also, dogfighting has only one use, and that's to tie up fighters. Admin shuttles work great, since they have a 360 degree phaser and don't care if someone is behind them (or not).

Given how easy it is to NOT get into a dogfight, what is the point of this pod? IIRC, a faster fighter can always decline a slower fighters dogfight challenge.

Again, assuming both players WANT to use this rule. It is entirely optional, and either player can decide it isn't worth the bother.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 01:26 pm: Edit

Well:

1) It's not an optional rule, it's a "commander's"-level rule. So it's actually in the game by default.

2) Shuttles aren't that great in dogfights. Note the (J7.66) 'Degree of Advantage' table. Their '0' DFR is a serious penalty, here! Not to mention only 6 internals...

3) I don't see a rule indicating a faster fighter can "just decline" a dogfight. Granted, if it gets called into one, it can usually get away okay ...you have to 'gain the advantage', then execute a 'breakaway' (J7.71) maneuver. Being faster definitely helps in gaining the maneuver advantage, but doesn't guarantee it.

4) Agree on carrying RALADs or dogfight drones (both of which can fire in dogfights). Ergo the idea noted pretty early on that something like an F-8, with two Type-I rails, would be well served to put this pod on one of them, and a RALAD/dogfight drone on the other to become something less hopeless of an interceptor fighter.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 01:30 pm: Edit

Again, the premise here is that this isn't a GOOD choice - certainly, replacing the fighters with newer ones is the BEST option. But for planets/colonies that *can't* afford to do that, this kit gives the fighter some offside chance of being useful.

The presence of booster packs in this time period, too, may show up on such fighters...they can then catch an unboosted contemporary fighter.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 01:39 pm: Edit

Xander Fulton:

The real question is: "How often have you successfully pulled off the maneuver of using older fightes to trap more modern fighters in a dogfight?"

Your whole premise depends on that factor.

Generally, I think the older slower fighters are going to be cut to ribbons before they can even begin challenging the more modern fighters.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 01:51 pm: Edit

This is nonsense. Why don't have have a "plus one die roll pod" for ships? Not going to happen. Rejected. Dead horse. Forgetaboutit.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 01:56 pm: Edit

Well, it's not a "plus one die roll", it just boosts the DFR. And we do already have a pod that boosts the ground attack rating of fighters - this is just something similar, but for...dogfights.

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Generally, I think the older slower fighters are going to be cut to ribbons before they can even begin challenging the more modern fighters.

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By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 02:14 pm: Edit

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I'm still not convinced that fighters don't have good enough tracking as it is. They can target stuff tens of thousands of kilometers away...

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By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 03:19 pm: Edit

Xander Fulton:

As SVC said, this topic is closed.

It does not help when you cannot (appaently) even answer the question asked.

I will assume that you have never successfully pulled off the tactic you were proposing the pod for, since you avoided answering it.

Topic is closed.