I didn't know where so to put this, this seemed most fitting.

Has anyone tried EY/MY ships against the normal SFB monsters in BS/AM's?

For example is a Fed YCA as good (about) as a Fed CA against a Space Ameoba? (using the BPV adjustment for the monster to balance the scenario). The D4 about as good as the D6, etc.

Anyone tried this out?

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 09:37 pm: Edit

Interestingly enough, no.

In Y1, Petrick created a space monster that was just for EY ships (the Space Boars),and they are easily slaughtered by MY+ units.

Supposedly, the BS/AM space monsters are self-balancing (an EY CA is roughly the same BPV as a FF or DD), so if the monster is balanced fighting a Fed FF, it should be balanced fighting a Fed YCA....

By Robert Gamble (Robertgamble) on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 10:30 am: Edit

This isn't really a discussion of tactics post, but a friend of mine and I have been playing SFB for over a year now, and are ready to try something a bit meatier on the 'West Front' than the simple duel/fleet battles (with the odd simple scenario thrown in). We keep looking at 'Lone Grey Wolf' (from Advanced Missions) as something that could be fun, but the '20 turn for reinforcements' bit seems to indicate the games could get boring.

So my question is, has anyone played this, and if so, what were your experiences.

By Gord Whitney (Cap10quirk) on Sunday, December 26, 2010 - 10:35 pm: Edit

I hava a question about (SH98.0) Starhawk Rising from module C4, and this thread seemed like the best place to ask it. The scenario features two Gorn BDDs and a BDL chasing a Romulan Firehawk-A in a nebula. It was published long before the plasma carronade was introduced to the game system.

While an ECM shift might reduce the damage scored by a carronade shot, it will never cause an outright miss - no matter how severe the ECM shift. For that reason it seems to me the carronade is probably the weapon least impaired by the high natural ECM (nine points) present in a nebula. They don't do a whole lot of damage per shot, but when you consider that ships are limited to minimum shields inside a nebula the carronades do enough damage, at a high enough rate of fire, that I would consider them the weapon of choice for combat inside a nebula.

Assuming the scenario was balanced at the time it was initially published, my impresssion is that introducing the plasma carronade shifts things noticeably in the Gorn's favor. (By the dates given for the introduction of the carronade and the scenario date, the Gorn ships should have been equipped with it.)

So, are my concerns about this valid? Anyone who has an opinion (or better yet, some relevant experience) to offer, speak up.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 06:22 am: Edit

Alot of the old scenarios are broken once you include things such as carronade or my personal favorite, drogues.

I would play it without carronade, and then play it with, just to see what happens.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 03:48 pm: Edit

...not just the 'old scenarios', either. Carronade is just plain broken as far as balance is concerned (IMHO). Why even cloak around a Gorn, now? Just asking to get your shields sandpapered off...

As it is, it completely replaces the plasma bolt as an effective weapon for the Gorn. Bolting past range 5 is rather a waste of effort; and in the range 0-5, you have either a 66% chance of doing 10 pts of damage over three turns for 5 points of power (regular F-torp bolt), or a 100% chance of doing 9-12 pts of damage over three turns for 3 points of power (constant carronade fire). Who would *ever* choose the former option?

As you mention - in nebula fights (always a weak point for the Romulans, anyway, as they are "paying for" cloak in their BPV that they cannot use), the carronade becomes a real problem against the weaker ship shields possible. No matter the EW situation, a carronade (I mean, even with a +5 shift, it one came up) cannot do less than 2 points of damage out to range 5. A pair of those will near knock down a nebula-limited shield every turn. For only 2 points of power! This lets the Gorn keep plenty of extra juice in its movement plot to help run out the torpedoes the Romulan may try to respond with (running out plasma being quite easy in a nebula, owing to the (P6.73) degradation!)

In fact, in heavy 'hostile EW' situations (like a nebula), the carronade having a cap of 'worst possible damage being 2 pts' actually becomes more efficient than a phaser for power:damage. Sure, a phaser-1 at range 5 *could* do up to 5 damage for 1 power in clear space...but this isn't. Even assuming the enemy puts only a single point of power into ECM, and you max out ECCM, you still have a +2 shift for your phasers. Max possible damage you could get is '4', and that at only a 1/6 chance. On the other hand, rolling a '5' or '6' (1/3 odds) gets you 0 damage.

Considering you had to spend 6 power on ECCM for that, along with 1 power for the phaser shot (a 1/6 chance of '4' damage and 1/3 chance of '0' damage), you are comparing 7 power used* against 1 power for the carronade (no ECCM needed at all!) for a guarantee of at least 2 damage.

* To be fair, this averages out a BIT in a group. The ECCM power is spread across all phasers used, after all. So 6 ECCM + 4 power for 4 phaser-1s (on the BDD) = 10 power total for 4 shots of 1/6 chance (each) of '4' damage and still 1/3 chance (each) of '0' damage. Still pretty ugly compared to 2 pts of power (total) for at least 4 damage (total) using carronades. I suppose someone, with more time on their hands, could work out the full result odds (including the phaser potentially getting the 1/3 odds of "3" damage and 1/6 odds of "2" damage), but it sure don't look good for the Romulan...

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 04:12 pm: Edit

...okay, I got bored, so worked the math out.

Even with 5 Phaser-1s (high BDL!), to power max of 6 ECCM (11 power total used), against a ship with 1 powered ECM, in a nebula (10 total ECM, so a +2 shift from EW), at range of '5', that 11 power expended yields a statistical average of 10 pts of damage (total). Or about 1.1 power to 1 damage using phasers.

Even down to range of '1', that 11 power put into firing your phasers (5 power to the weapon, 6 to ECCM for a +2 shift against 1 powered ECM in a nebula) yields a total average of only 19 pts. Pretty impressive, but a LOT of power called for still. At least it's better than 1:1, coming in at 1 point of power to 1.7 damage.

Using carronades, you are spending 2 points of power (no ECCM, so a +3 die roll shift from EW) for a statistical average of 5 damage. Or, about 1 power to 2.5 damage using the carronade.

The total damage from phasers is obviously statistically *higher*...but only because you have a lot more of them. The (average) 5 damage from carronades every turn is plenty sufficient to blow down a nebula-limited shield. And comparing 2 power spent vs 11 power (the difference of 9 pts, on a BDD, lets you move !!18 hexes farther!! over a turn), it seems a no-brainer. Sure, you can get much higher damage with phasers at close range, but you'll never beat the efficiency of the carronade for power usage, and if you are trying to close to range 1 with a plasma ship in a nebula and that much power tied up into shooting...you ARE making a mistake.

Stick to range 5 passes, at disgustingly high speeds, using the carronades only, and enjoy watching the helpless Romulan being pecked to death by ducks!

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 04:28 pm: Edit

"But wait!," you exclaim, "I am no fool and realize 6 power in ECCM in a ship this small is commonly a waste! Nor shall I close range to '1', but split the difference between '1' and '5', doing range '3' passes!"

It's true, you've found the break-even point. With *no* power in ECCM, you now have a +3 shift for your phasers, which at range 3 is 4-4-3-2-2-0 possible damage. Over 5 phasers, that nets a total salvo size (statistically) of about 12.5 damage. With 5 power...you have, exactly, 1 power to 2.5 damage that the carronades were giving you at range 5.

Of course, the enemy has phasers, too. And more power. And now you are at range 3, with 5 power spent on weapons instead of 2.

Just...stick with the carronades!

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 06:23 pm: Edit

True, Roms suck in nebulas. But so do Hydrans, as their fighters are useless. A nebula is such a weird place that all manner of balance goes out of whack.

True that carronades make bolted Fs obsolete if you can keep the range short, but the best use for a plasma F is not bolting anyway.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 07:50 pm: Edit

It's really not just nebulas, though. With *any* kind of EW hostile environment at all, for range 5 passes, the carronade beats phasers for efficiency. Even with as little as a +1 shift to die rolls from EW:

Range 5 Phaser 1: 4-4-3-3-2-0

Let's assume our destroyer leader (or a light cruiser), with 5 phaser-1s on it...so your average salvo at range 5 in that +1 shift environment is '13.33' for 5 power. 2.666 damage per point of power.

Compare a pair of carronade F-torps at the same range, and with the same shift:

Range 5 Carronade: 4-4-4-3-3-2

Average damage for the whole salvo is 6.6667 for 2 power. IE., 3.333 (etc) damage per point of power.

Heck, even with *no* EW shift:

Phaser 1: 5-4-4-3-3-2 (5 shots, avg of 17.5 damage for 5 power: 3.5 damage per power)

Carronade: 4-4-4-4-3-3 (2 shots, avg of 7.3333 damage for 2 power: 3.66667 damage per power)

It's a troubling weapon. At range 5, in an EW neutral environment, it's more energy efficient than phaser-1s. AFAIK, the only weapon in the game that can claim that.

And, as the EW environment gets more hostile (such as the nebula being asked about above...but true of many other situations, such as asteroids, sunspot zones, dust clouds, ion storms, enemy scout present, etc), phaser efficiency drops off *sharply*, while carronade efficiency doesn't really move much at all.

I truly dread the possibility of the proposed 'Gorn carronade cruisers' that would have more than 2 F-torps, specifically configured as carronades. The only real balancing factor in the weapon's favor, at the moment, is that while it may BE more energy efficient than phasers at this critical range, there aren't (yet) any ships that mount more than 2 of them...

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Quote:

True that carronades make bolted Fs obsolete if you can keep the range short, but the best use for a plasma F is not bolting anyway.

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By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 08:37 pm: Edit

Xander, the Gorn COMF has 4 Plasma-Fs. I know there are some people who love that ship simply for that.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Tuesday, December 28, 2010 - 05:26 am: Edit

The Orion BR can have five. It's not fun trying to defend a convoy against one so equipped. The Feds make good use of them too.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Tuesday, December 28, 2010 - 05:43 am: Edit

Poor, poor Rommies.

Evil carronades burns them, it does.