How fast should a CXX be allowed to go? Speed 32? 36? 40? 48? 64?

My opinion: 31. There will still be scenarios involving a CXX, 2 CX, 4 CA on the same map. To change the speed limit would greatly affect the fundamentals of how the game is played.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Sunday, December 22, 2002 - 11:09 pm: Edit

With the increased MC of 1.25 proposed. A speed limit of 31-32 might be best. I would like to see a 2X ship be able to outrun anything 0X other than a Plasma Sabot at close range. Plasma Sabots move at 40 IIRC.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, December 22, 2002 - 11:22 pm: Edit

The thing about the X1 ships is that they have 40 warp, but a speed limit of 30 (+1 impulse).

Is there anything you can do with those 10 extra warp boxes that you can't do with 10 AWR boxes?

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, December 22, 2002 - 11:40 pm: Edit

Take damage and still move. EM. HET. Quick Reverse.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 12:50 am: Edit

Not to mention how that translates to F&E. X2 ships will be as fast as X ships with bigger Factors and maybe something special.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 05:21 am: Edit

Personally I'ld like to see the MC of a cruiser remain an integer, so either 2 or 1 but not 1.25, please.

I'ld also like to see a Tactical speed above 31 so I'm putting my vote on speed 32.

F&E X2 ships SHOULD move faster than X1.

I don't thin that the game would be broken by speed 36 ships for the following reasons.

You can not fire until the fire declairation step in case you are fifing at exacly the same ranhge as the ship that fired on you, reguardless of whether or not you moved this impulse ( same for tractors and Transporters ).

Any, the slower ships NEEDS to GET THERE FIRST to have a chance at winning scenarios are just poorly written if a 2X ship is deployed in that scenario. A 1X ship has the same situation with the extra power, it'll move at 31, arm weapons and blow away a few of the enemy warp engine boxes...even without energy balance due to damage, it'll soon be able to move faster than the GW ship.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 12:52 pm: Edit

The problem with having X2 ship move faster than X1 ship in F&E is that 8 is too fast. I think seven is fine but give them other advantages. Like superiority in pursuit and prority in descisions of battle. All the advantages X1 ships have over GW ships, X2 should have over X1, but not Operational Movement.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 06:54 am: Edit

ALL X2 POSTERS


The biggest question of X2 must be the speed at which ships can travel.

•Sweetspot location for Ph-1, Ph-2 and Ph-3 analogs; will need to be massively extended in order to avoid the lower damage but longer range weapons being simply jumped range on.
This is especially true if we opt for speed 48 or 64 seeking weapons.

• The speed of seeking weapons will need to be appropriately improoved.

• Any extention to overload range will need to be made under the understanding the phasers were shifted proportionately.


So where does everybody stand on Ship speed?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 06:58 am: Edit

For what it's worth I think should should be capable of speed 36 or even speed 40 using some kind of PAN warp or TRANS WARP system. And like think that some FAST X2 vessels should be capable of 40 and the rest simply 36 as this will create a feel of a HIGHLY ADVANCED VESSEL TACHNOLOGY.


But then I think X2 cruisers should have an MC of 2 and 80 warp engines boxes capable of producing 1.5 points of power.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 08:34 am: Edit

I believe X2 should be a minor improvement over X1 using new hulls designed to be lighter, faster and cheaper but with comparable abilities to their X1 counterparts. Technological breakthroughs allow X1 tech to be mass-produced and maintained by average crews.

I’m in favor of super-32 speeds and have a workable method of doing so but I fear efforts to do so will dramatically increase our odds of rejection by the establishment.

It would be best not to directly tie the success of X2 to a mandatory speed increase. If we can create two proposals, one with an increase and one limiting ships to 32, we maximize our chances.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 11:23 am: Edit

I want to leave ships cruiseing at the regular speeds. Maybe an upgrade to a speed of 31Warp+1imp=32.

32 enables a ship to run at close range from all but the Plasma Sabot and get away from them. (or at least keep the same range.) Plus we wont need any funky rules for speeds faster than 32 for ship's. A big concern for SFB.

Remember KISS
Keep It Simple Stupid.

SFB's complex enough. Any trans 32 speeds would simply make things unplayablely complex, and open a Big Can of Rule Worm's. IMO.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 11:52 am: Edit

I don't want ships going past speed 32, not because it's not reasonable, but because it's going to be big hassle. I agree with Kenneth. To give X2 ships some more maneuverabiltiy, give them better HET bonuses, more tac warp moves, better turn modes, etc.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 01:01 pm: Edit

There used to be a speed 8 and 16 impulse chart. If no one was going faster that one of those speeds then you used that chart. And it screwed everything up.

I've said it before, the 32 impulse chart IS THE CORE of the game. Change it and you have to address every single rule in the game. Maybe many will have a common rule but many will need special rules. One might as well redesign the game.

That out of the way, I also think having Trans-32 speeds for ships will creat the effect of putting a two hex displacement device that requires no extra power on every ship. Jumping two hexes every fourthe or so impuleses will cause problems to which I can not see an end. I could be wrong, it's not like I've got a reserch team working on it but I promise it's a big deal. X2 will become all about movement.

I vote NO TRANS-31 SPEEDS FOR SHIPS.

I do think there can be an exception for seeking weapons as long as it is kept to a minimum. There will likely be the Sabot and I suggested the Drone Booster Pack. The core of why I think this can work is a rule I came up with that allows, in the case of Trans-32 SW, there to always be a Range one oppertunity to fire. To apply this to ship would be a pain, but for Seeking weapons it is another matter.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 01:29 pm: Edit

Loren I can see a move limit of 32 for 2X ships but not more than that. Maybe limit them to spped 31 as regular ships.

So far we have votes for:
Speed 31/32*3
Trans 32*1

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 01:39 pm: Edit

Speed 32 for X2 ships wouldn't hurt the game at all. It might mess with some balance issues though but if it is really needed, those could be worked out. I still would like the max speed to stay the same. Not everything has to change. We can slow these ships down by giving them more things to apply power to.

Hmmm, but maybe that last bit of speed should take extra power, say 4 x move cost? This puts the ship into the transitional speed between High Warp and Tactical Warp. Half the power is used to speed up and half to keep the ship from entering High Warp.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 01:54 pm: Edit

And then apply the effects of EM.

So you pay (on MC1) 30 warp to move 30. One Impulse to move to 31 and 4 additional to hold the ship at the transitional speed of 32. The ship is then under the resrictions and effects of EM.
This extra cost is required to enter the speed 32 bracket, even during Mid-Turn Speed Changes.

I know this will be asked. "Loren, would you then apply the effects of EM to plamasa and speed 32 drones?"
No, ships and seeking weapons are different things. The speed 32 effects and EM are not physically the same thing but in game terms the result is the same.

Also, a while back SVC wrote that Plasmas and Drones do EM in a way and it is built into their damage ratings and design.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 04:37 pm: Edit

Interesting idea. For every point of speed generated by warp over 30 the ship suffers from 1 point of natural ECM. A ship moving 36W+1I would have to fire through or negate 6 natural ECM.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 04:49 pm: Edit

Well you haven’t asked for it so here goes:

How to break the speed 32 barrier without breaking the impulse chart or the game:

Change the SOP.

Specifically, follow the revised X2 Sequence of Play:
6A1 Movement
6B Impulse Activity
6C Dogfight Resolution
6D1 Direct Fire (first Aegis phase)
6A2 Super Movement
6D2 X2 Direct Fire (second Aegis phase)
6D3 Direct Fire (third Aegis phase)
6D4 Direct Fire (fourth Aegis phase)
6E Post Combat Segment

This system uses a 32-impulse chart as its base (perhaps stretched to deal with the faster speeds). If you have no Aegis/X1/X2 ships then you skip phases 6D2, 6D3, 6D4. If you have no super movement ships this turn you skip phase 6A2. If you want to defend against that super fast plasma bearing down on you but you don’t want to fire at 2 range, wait for the 6D2 Second Aegis phase after it moves to range 1.

This rule requires changing only one annex and no rule sections, works without changing anything for existing ships and is cross functional across multi-generation battles.

Would that change the way anyone has voted?

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 06:09 pm: Edit

32 max, more for seekers. I don't think it's all that vital to enforce R1 firing opportunities, as it's not required now. People who insist on closing at 3 hexes an impulse on seeking weapons get what they deserve.

It may be that X2 includes some manner of Andro DD technology, or (ahem) "transwarp" that allows a ship to move several hexes in one impulse, but this isn't really considered conventional movement. Not sure of a good way to handle this, but it should be very restrictive; perhaps DD yourself 1-6 hexes in the forward 60{deg} arc, paying 2 movement points per hex, with the usual disrupted FC.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 07:09 pm: Edit

31/32 max for ships. I can deal with putting speed 64 seeking weapons in the rules, with or without the "revised sequence of play", but not when you have ships going faster.

If an X0 or X1 ship is facing a speed 64 plasma, the ship isn't designed to handle it. So if the plasma jumps from range 2 to range 0, tough luck for the antique ship.

If the game were originally designed with 48 or 64 impulses, that would be a different story.
I see this causing more problems than it's worth.

I was under the impression that X0 ships flew faster than 31, but only on the stategic map since a single phaser hit would destroy a DN moving that fast. I don't think X2 would solve that problem.

Allowing X2 ships to fire on the first and second aegis steps effectively gives ALL X2 ships limited Aegis, but without the system being restricted to SC6 or smaller. Is that something we want?

Also note: any increase in the speed limit, whether it becomes 33,36 or 64, would involve the same type of issues. Remember, KISS

By David Lang (Dlang) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 07:21 pm: Edit

well there is room for faster objects between speed 32 and highwarp 1. but as others have noted things get very ugly game mechanics wise if there is much happening faster then 32, and a rewrite of the rules would be needed for more then 32 impulses.

I have no problem with small fragile objects being faster, but the faster they are the more fragile they should be, to the point where something traveling at highwarp would be killed by any hit (but may be small enough that it's hard to hit)

also just as there are LARGE gaps between the speed that a ship can reach with highwarp and the speed it can reach with dash warp, there can be a gap between combat speeds and highwarp speeds

think of speed 64 drones with 10 ECM, but 1 point to destroy

By Marc Remaley (Skawpya) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 07:44 pm: Edit

one possibility is to add a new type of manuever in, slip. this would in an impulse slide the using ship foward up to maybe three to five hexes on its present heading.

It may or may not eat away at the free hets depending on balance. It would use reserve warp power, or be allocated.

the ship slipping would be affected as if it had moved through all the hexes in question using normal movement.

not sure if this would discourage experianced players from getting close to a target or discourage them from doing so due to the unpredictability this would cause to those within the slip range of the enemy.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 08:06 pm: Edit

Toss: That was a very intreging presentation but I still can't change my vote. You came close though.

Though Jeff is starting to get a bit repetitive with the KISS thing he made a good point about Aegis: Allowing X2 ships to fire on the first and second aegis steps effectively gives ALL X2 ships limited Aegis, but without the system being restricted to SC6 or smaller.
There are a few other reasons too.

And Jeff T: What is a base to do? With Plasma Sabot you will be able to position your self so that your plasma will always jump from 2 to 0 every shot. This doesn't work for me and would be really, really dangerous if drones get to do that. I agree, if during normal sub-32 movement you turn into a seeking weapon then you get what you deserve. The circumstance where you don't have a choice is significantly rare. With Trans-32 seeking weapons it will become an abused feature. You would be less of a captain if you didn't. And I don't feel it represents "Real Physics" very well.

Your X0 not being designed to handle targeting super fast targets doesn't hold for two reasons. One: There are times when the target would be at range one and you can fire normally. Two: If you couldn't target high warp objects then where is the danger of traveling at high warp into a battle that SVC says is there?

By David Lang (Dlang) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 08:17 pm: Edit

shooting at a ship in high warp is relativly easy. you have a large target moving fairly predictably.

shooting at a drone moving the same speed is likly to be significantly harder.

if we need more of a reason we can always point at the fact that warp related things tend to be very non-linear and say that the larger/faster the object the larger the warp bubble that can be targeted.

or speed 64 objects work on a 'stutter drive' concept where the drive cuts in and out, making it even harder to track and hit them while in the vunerable high warp mode.

as for the base 'problem', just give them enough short range weapons to deal with the incoming drones at range 2 instead of range 1 and the problem is solved (or just extend the P-3 table one hex for the same effect)

the game already has enough decision points where players need to let each other know what they are doing, let's not add more.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 08:22 pm: Edit

A simple max speed of 32 (31 warp+1 impulse).

No bizarre movement rules or anything like that. X ships are already going to move after everything else on the board anyway.