Archive through January 28, 2011
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Archive through January 28, 2011
Another Question and it doesn't even involve webs.
It involves stealh bonusus for Orion ships, rules references are G15.8, D6.3142 and D6.393.
The campaign rules don't mention stealth ecm, as its not in tournament EW i assume its not allowed.
My question is if its illegal as i think it is doesn't that really hurt the Orions chance of getting selected.
Its like the Eneen CW, who got its plasma picked off and BPV not adjusted. Orion stealth is part of the ship design and cost, if its not allowed shouldn't they get some sort of discount.
If even one engine is doubled they lose the ECM, cloaking devices are allowed and are definatly producers of EW like effects.
I don't see why we cant make "built in" stealth EW a natural source. The ships are narrow and coated in sensor absorbing material, and they paid the BPV to make them that way. Its like plucking the cloak from the Romulan because you don't like pointy ears.
I really don't think it would be unbalancing in the campaign. If you double even an impulse engine the stealth is gone. Is that really going to have that big an effect on the game? They are a fun race to fly but if you pick there wings off no race looks good.
We have seen WC given increases in the rules, and G10 web now also.
Maybe this was already discussed if so sorry I wasn't there.
Now we start adding bumps to things, if the Orions don't have stealth but paid for it then get bumped they are then priced way way too high.
I know that Ken has said both the Orions and WYN don't fare well in the DboM campaign format. Isn't that why the tholians got an extra WC to help them be viable races as either primary or secondary.
I can think of a few others that are challanged also. Why not give perks to them as well as the tholians to make them playable in the campaign.
Like Seltorian Shuttle and TB restrictions till i believe Y184. We give the Tholians all and extra web caster and set the YIS date 3 years too early for the tholians enemies.
Why not give the Selts a campaign rules overide on the shuttles and TB in there race specific rules.
And the Eneen CW that got its plasma plucked, reduce its cost accordingly.
The WYN why not give them a YIS that allows the "fish" ships.
And of course the Orions stealth.
In my opinion the bumping rules are just a way of pulling the wings off of other peoples butterflies, like the D5. Sry Teemo, poor klingons don't get alot of TAoC lovin in the Nov 28 rules revision.
So specifically im interested in the Orion Stealth question. What are peoples opinions on the effect that stealth would have on a battle in DBoM or TAoC, I don't think it wouls slow the game down. I think the ugre to double would almost always cause you to lose stealth. But after the engines are fried stealth is about the only thing you got going for you.
The ships were designed for stealth at a heavy cost in internals and fluff, in my opinion stealth is as natural an effect as asteroids or EM is. The ships are coated in a sensor absorbing materiel, a natural source. More natural than teflon asteroids, wonder where the frack the Masters found all those. 
If you pulled the cloak and NSM on all the roms that have NSM and don't reduce there BPV accordingly sure nobody will play them.
My question is, why do some races seem to be favored over others by the rules. Balance doesn't seem to be the goal of many of the changes.
The price bumping will result in ships that are priced correctly being bumped, more bang for your buck if you pick somebody's favorite ship as there sure to build more of that type.
The way I see it if the stealth is a problem its the sort of thing that bumps would be good for. I don't think they are going to be all powerfull but there fun to fly and why put them at even more of a disadvantage taking their stealth away. Nobody played them in DBoM, we are trying new things in TAoC cant we consider this issue?
Thanks agian ken and valonqar,
Merry Christmas to all, a bit early.
Maybe the Masters can bestow some needed christmas gifts on some lucky secondary races. Seconday races we can all see need a bit of help if not for this campaign then the next. Why even offer a race if your rules make it a stupid choice to take. And why fix one race the tholians, and forget the other races that need a slight adjustment. Selts, Orion, WYN, Lyeran, LDR all seem to have issues that could be worked on in the rules.
There may be others also, I know we all want to keep things simple and fun. I don't mean to go against that type of play, I understand the reasons for the limits that are in place and think they make for a fun game.
Also some races seem fine as is like Fed is fine without swac shuttles. ISC does very well too, they don't need help, but some of the races do. Tholians did definatly, and I don't see why something cant be done for these races.
Thanks GFB
And I would like to say that I do realize the Orions do have some special gifts that the rules do allow. They may be ok without stealth what do you all think?
Engine Doubling
Double HET bonus
Variety of options available including 10% megallenic
I have no idea how to fix the WYN the seltorians seem like a simple fix.
Josh - the reasons for not allowing Orion stealth is that it's explicitly disallowed in tournament, and I limited the EW rules to "tournament plus three additions".
No, Orion ships aren't going to have their price adjusted for losing stealth, any more than fighters are going to have their price adjusted for losing their built in ECM and ECCM factors. If you think this is unfair, there are literally over 20 other empires you can choose as your secondary.
I find it quixotic that you ask for deadlines on 'rules changes' while also pleading to change secondary races, and campaigning for rules changes.
For example, you're now campaigning for price bumps to be eliminated, asking for Seltorians to get their YIS penalties changed, and some sort of nebulous bonus for the Lyrans.
I honestly don't mind if we give the Seltorians special shuttle rules and T-Bombs from the campaign start. However, nobody has asked until now.
I cannot update the spreadsheet until after Val finishes updating the map - and for all I know, he's updating the spreadsheet himself.
I have proposed a set of pretty severe limitations on the cost of reinforcing web to help limit G10.0 web laying, and I specifically showed what makes laid web potentially very dangerous in this campaign, and was expecting everyone to say 'no' when shown. It didn't.
Thanks Ken
Sorry that I came across that way, your right there are plenty of options where races are concerned. I wasn't trying to put you on the defensive at all, just asking for a bit of clarification. I do see that the built in ECM of stealth is just like that of fighters, and have no problem with it now that you explained that all races are in the same situation where built in EW is concerned.
I didn't suggest anything for the Lyrans because all I can think of is maybe some flea collars. Just kidding. Apologies to the Lyran lovers.
Also your right there are few changes in the rules when you did update them on Nov 28th. I just assumed there were probably more changes on the way. My mistake there. I should never assume anything.
I was just looking for an update, but I know everyone including me is buisy with the holidays. I wasn't at the rules meeting to ask my dumb questions there.
Your right does seem a bit quixotic when i read my posts again. I didn't feel like I was on a mission to add more rules changes, or condemn the ones that have been changed. Im fine with the rules as is, but there are times when I do have questions.
I understand that the new map will create alot of work for either you (very likely), or Valoqar. I would understand if this delayed the start of the game even, we are doing this for fun. We all have lives beyond TAoC, and were here to have fun in our free time. Thats my goal.
Im fine with price bumping the way it is written now. But I do remember the early discussion versions that were alot different than what went into the final rule. When the number of bumps per player and their effect were both lowered and split BPV ships excluded, I really stopped having a problem with it. So lets see how it works. It cant be that bad.
Thanks again,
Josh-GFB
By the way "quixotic" nice word, but you made a good point I must say. And thanks my Scrabble word arsenel is now complete.
Ok, so the other campaign ive always thought looked interesting, was Operation Unity. But that things huge, I think Teemo and I thought about scaling that one back if we did it. And probably no Desecrator for the cupcake at the end.
Dominator and its sats would be quite a show maybe a few other escorts, anything bigger than that and we would take forever to play it out even with the client.
Which is why i started to think maybe we should go with a format more like that of U2.0 but instead of maybe captains game call it commodor's or something because the admirals game is also a bit big. I think we should aim somewhere in between in size, and can pick any sequence of scenario's. But we could play a thing like that with only two of us online, and i havn't got a list of generic scenario's to use in mind. Im not sure we want to include any monster scenario's unless there under player control and were sure the client can do them. Ive never tried any, i know alot can be but there are newer ones the client doesn't have.
Teemo suggested something like T2.0 Economy of Force, but with three players somehow. So that is another one to consider.
Im guessing that we would use full EW or closer than what we have been using, but i suppose it is negotiable. At least self generation and scouts lending and tournement and terrain, EM, but when you top it all off with MRS shuttles and ECM drones and ECP the game slows to a snals pace. Its a much different game. If we do i sure think smaller would be better.
We could try a smaller map size with our current games or altered WS and setup, to speed things on there way a bit. I thought maybe if we draw the outline of a standard SFB map, centered on the center of the regular DboM map, thats a tournement barrier, for a bit, as would the red like normal. We would need to up the WS all the way probably, and maybe make the inner map barrier drop afther say 32 impulses plus maybe a couple D6 maybe make give scouts a modifier as in the new rules for disengagement. Probably a hex shaped inner map somewhat bigger than the regular one would be better, but i think the important thing is we should think about either setting up closer to start or having one side start at the center of the map. Either way you cut the dead time in half if your setting up a few hexes from the map edge. I don't know if the innner barrier idea is so good now that i think about it, sabot plasma and high speed drones at those WS levels would definatly get me killed on the fixed rectangel map with three players at 700 BPV a piece or more. That would be a slaughter house for sure, depending on the timer.
Or do you guys(ECF and Teemo), like the long closing and charging of fighters etc, that is part of our games. I think even altering our setup hexes just a bit could really save us some frusration, bases and defense fleets would be fine in the center say within 10 or so any heading. But if were all converging on each other maybe no ship should be closer than 36 hexes from the nearest emeny ship, and give them the option of any heading. Even if i ran like i did the last game its a shorter trip to corner me and make me fight. With a minefield of sorts i drug it out five turns, lost alot in the process, but the reinforcemnts take so long a two to one advantage is pretty rough for that long. With two opposing scouts to my none your able to slow my disengagement timer and im totally at the mercy of the reinforcement timer. Which even on say a 3 like i rolled is a long time, thats a slightly above average roll, if you hadn't let the reinforcements arrive early by a turn, the equivalent of a 2. Then the ships i did save would die before they got there. And the arrival rules put them awefully close when the do get there, why not have them earlier and farther away. And at WS III they can have already launched weapons, in the pre arrival impulses as i understand it.
Anyway any other ideas on games we can put together with less than 6 and 2 alternates to rub together in any given month. That seems hard to get some months online. Which is too bad, we love our carnage.
See you all later today for our practice, whatever it turns out to be.
Josh
Josh, and other interested parties...
I am thinking of putting together a variant of the Economy of Force campaign.
Each player would have a fleet. They would be facing several scenarios each round, where the Admiral would have to assign ships to each. Fail in your missions, and there will be consequences. For example, lose a few ships from your convoy escort mission, and then you won’t get your full repair budget this turn. Fail in a monster mission, and then face one that is twice as strong. One or two missions each round will have you facing an opposing player’s fleet. Fail too many missions, or lose too many ships, and you will find yourself falling further and further behind.
Your initial fleet will be a mix of stock ships, and a chosen few. You will have a budget to repair, replace ATU, and will get a few replacement ships over the campaign.
Sound interesting to anyone?
yes definatly, we had talked about something like Economy of Force. I think Teemo and possibly ECF would aslo be interested. Are you modifying the Economy of Force rules, sounds like at least a little. Im in of course, sounds great.
Josh
Count me in.
Not being familiar with "Economy of Force" where would I find the material. With an entry into the RAT and the coming of TAoC I would be concerned about overextending myself so any additional undertakings would have to have flexibility in it's time commitments.
Economy of Force (T2.0) Captains Rulebook.
It will be rather modified, with some borrowed from the DbOM/TAoC rule set. Year will be no later than 180, likely to be much earlier. Give me feed back on what you would like to see, for that.
I think 4 player and one alt would be just perfect, and I will be playing as well, will set it up so that is possible.
I will work on some rules, and post here with a few days to a week.
Spots reserved for Me, Josh, Troy, and Christopher, looking for an Alt. Chris, let me know if you want the alt spot instead.
Robert/Tugger
Hey Tugger. I'd be interested. If Chris wants to play, I can be the alt. TM
I think for this one an alt would be ok for me and I may be a fly on the wall for any games that happen when I'm around, or to help move auto rules monsters and do there dice.
All right.
4 Admirals
Me
Josh
Troy
Tony
Alts (will take one more)
Christopher
Year will start at 168
There will be 4 rounds of 6 scenarios per year.
Think on your races.
No Wyn, Orion, LDR, Seltorian, Andromedan, Tholian, or simulator races other than Frax.
LMC races welcome.
The Admirals can allow other players to fight some the battles each round, if they dont have time to complete them all.
More soon.
While your thinking of what Empire to pick, look at the fleets for U3.0, The Admiral's Game (U3.2, forces available)
The initial fleets you will receive will be about 2/3's of what is listed there, in the basic battle fleet. You will receive a starting bonus of, around 500 BPV, to convert existing hulls, or to add a few. Those fleets will then be divided up each round, to try to win as many of your ~6 missions. Minor repairs can be done between rounds, major ones, and refits will keep that ship out for a round.
Still working on further details. Input and ideas welcome.
Tugger
ANNOUNCEMENT!!!...Anyone interested in playing U10.0 The Survey Captain's Game..This will start promptly...The rules..as is!!! Picka ship and compete...Drop in and play an opposing ship just for the sake of messing up a Survey Captain's 5 year voyage..Contact ECF or Teemo...You ask: "Complicated rules to be determined in 6 months to a year?"..No way!...We're using U10.24 starting at Y164 with the six-month advancement rule per scenario...And the rest of the rules, as per campaign and like you were hooking up with your buddies to play back on the weekend like when you were young...Old school SFB play....Only other variable..You can run a monster!...Rule lawyers, control freaks or credited game designers need not apply...This is for fun! Start anytime! Starting prompty...Get a free sham whoa(trademark) when you talk to us...It's for fun...For grief, options available elsewhere!
For the Survey Captains game, I am in, with the Peladine.
Will be a week or so before I can work much on the Economy of Force game.
Tugger
Im doing survey work for the Frax.
Commander Junior Grade Balter
Commanding the Frax SR Soothsayer, beginning our tour of duty.
I am in too...I'll take the mighty Klingon D7E...Beginning search for new planets to assimila...er...I mean develop and colonize and new life to conqu...er I mean meet and greet. Here we go..Wait..where did my ship go? First battle report from U10.0 posted over there..in battle reports.
No problem Tugger. TYT
Still working on my thoughts and plans for the Economy of Force (modified), but thinking we should get started on fleets at this point. I will look for you online over the next week, and get a 2d6 roll from you. Highest roll goes first, picking Empire. Will post choices here when we get to that point. Then we can start figuring out the ships of the fleet.
To see what your going to get, look at the basic battle fleets of U3.2
You will get 1 DN, 1 CC, all scouts and tugs listed (usually 2 and 1) and 2/3 of the remainder of the ships (4 of 6 CA, for example)
If the number of ships does not break down evenly, say 5 CA, then you will get 3 CA, and some points will carry over to your next uneven # of ships in a class, so, if you had 5 CA and 5 CL, you would end us with 3 CA and 4 CL, and so forth.
You will also get some points, around 300, to modify your ships, or buy a new hull or two.
Remember, y168...though we might let a ship or two out early, if they are on the list in U3.2
Yes, was looking and alot of DN classes are not available in Y168, same with most races best refits.
As an example the ISC DN YIS171, also the ISC plas F refit, available in 171 also. So this ship had the F refit available from the start, but even if allowed early, it looks pretty sad without the 8 plasma F's on the back. In fact it would have no plasma torpedo's only the 4 PPD and a good phaser battery. The refit would add 8 F's for only 16 BPV. Now they suffer from the rear F torpedo restrictions, but without them the DN doesn't look appealing.
I think not getting the F refits on all the ISC ships will really hurt, probably make people think twice before picking them.
I was really thinking about them, but now that i see there are refit problems all across the board in every class, im not so sure.
Time to look for races that had better early refits in there key classes.
Josh-GFB
In a case like this, you would get the DN at game start, ignoring the y171 date, but would have to wait 3 game years before you could upgrade it.
Yes, y168 is a pretty early for most refits, and still sees a lot of the older ships in active service (Fed CL). Part of the appeal of this is doing your best with flawed, old school, ships.
You fight with the fleet you have got, not the fleet you might wish for.
Well, I witnessed Teemo's roll Tuesday night, and Tugger saw my roll, so we have just Tugger's and Troy's remaining. Then its on to race selection.
Josh-GFB
Is it too late to get into the survey captain's game?
Survey Captain Game question from Klenotic: No Drew..We're taking anybody anytime...Just pick a Survey ship to play and keep in mind that since someone is electing to play the opponent against you in different games and maybe in a ship they don't want, it would be courteous to do the same at some point...Example: I know ECF did not want to play a FED but he beat me up good for my first match and now I want to return the favor when he needs an opponent and I'm available (lol, sounds like the Revenge Captain's Game)..Sorry, I digressed... The point system is a competition against oneself more than against someone else but everyone should play to win regardless of whether you're playing the opponent for someone else's match and whether you're in a ship you don't want to play ...Set up something for yourself once you have a ship selected with one of the other captains and select a time to meet (this will give you time to familiarize yourself with a race you haven't played often if you're the opponent and vice-versa or to read up on the scenario you will play)..The scenarios can be played in any order that you like...But that's the point...You're playing to complete your 9 scenarios and seeing how you stack up but if you're available to help some one play one of their games then you kind of try to help...So join anytime but if you're available and one of the Survey Captain's need an opponent, hopefully you can help... We're using the complete U10.0 rules with the Y164 start time and the six month advancement per scenario meeting...Captains signed up thus far include me in a Klingon (My second ship already), GFB, ECF and Tugger. Not sure if anybody else has finalized they're choices yet. Anyways, this campaign is for creating pick-up games...loosey-goosey...if you drop, you drop...if you complete your 9, even better! Have a good one and feel free to ask any questions you have! Cheers! Tony