Going through the many ideas thrown about for the Chomak Community, I saw the idea of giving them X-Ships as their "standard" ships. I like this idea a lot, as it uses a large number of already existing rules and "special" bonuses that would increase the average power of their ships, limiting the amount of new rules they would need to justify their place in history.

It would also allow the Chumok to have very limited shipbuilding capability, without reducing their overall combat capabilities (such as their years long meander through Andro-occupied space). Since the average X-Tech destroyer is capable of beating a war cruiser (and costs as much or more), the Chumok can be presented as spending most of their economy to build and maintain their fleet of relatively small, but powerful ships.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, January 08, 2010 - 04:14 pm: Edit

Kevin Humar-Barrett:

It is a concept. The only primary things about the Chomak is that they have to be strong enough that the other Magellanics would leave them alone, and weak enough that the Andromedans would be able to beat them. Much as some factions want them to hold out and just be bypassed by the Andromedans, it just does not work. For that to have happened, at a minimum the three Andromedan Starbases would all have had to have survived and served as links back to the Andromedan home stars. With only one starbase operating as a base it is just not an option. There is simply no way the Andromedans would deploy to attack our galaxy if there was any sort of significant threat to their last life-line home. They would have to maintain large and significant forces ready to defend the base. The existing Chomak history makes ignoring them impossible. (These guys did a complete circumvention of the Magellanic Cloud . . . that means they could attack the base from any direction.) The background already imparts too many capabilities to the Chomak, and with only one desecrator remaining . . .

By Stephen E. Parrish (Steveparrish) on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 09:30 am: Edit

SPP: As a matter of curiosity, how far have the Chomak been developed (in technology, racial characteristics, etc.)?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 10:33 am: Edit

Stephen E. Parrish:

In all honesty, there is just an open file and what exists in the Magellanic timeline.

By Stephen E. Parrish (Steveparrish) on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 04:55 pm: Edit

SPP: Thanks. That leaves things pretty wide open for ideas for development.

By Stephen E. Parrish (Steveparrish) on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 07:57 pm: Edit

SPP: Regarding the Chomak, several issues need to be addressed--their having space flight thousands of years earlier, their ability to travel great distances, and then there fighting ability against the other Magellianics and the Andromedans.

Regarding the first: perhaps it could be assumed that sometime after their arrival, they were nearly destroyed by someone or something. They and their home planet were smashed worse than the Ymatrians. Only a few survived and it took thousands of years for them and the planet to recover. They have their own new technology, with perhaps some discovered from fragments of machines, etc., of their previous civilization.

Regarding the second: I had the thought that perhaps they had developed a sort of hybrid warp technology wherein they could draw on dark matter energy like the Souldra, and thus move great distances because they can renew their fuel from the dark energy. Perhaps this could be a key to other technology they have.

Regarding the third: their ships would be good, but not too much better than the other Magellianics. Partly because of the racial memories of their disasters, they were very cautious and defensive minded. They had no desire to conquer other races, but did not want any other race to dominate the cloud and thus pose a threat to them. The Andromedans took them out, but at great cost, because their defenses were strong. After their defeat, the survivors went into hiding and raiding like the other races.

After the Andromedan defeat, they recovered more quickly because the Andromedan occupation of their planets had been briefer than that of the other races, and because being located at a distance, the Andromedans did not put the resources into exploiting their worlds as much as the other Megellianics.

Just some thoughts.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 10:36 pm: Edit

Perhaps the Chomak were not wiped out by the Andromedans, but saw a fight they could not quite win and ran away to another galaxy. Had they stayed and fought, the Andromedan invasion would have been significantly delayed.

Or perhaps they had great ships, but bad interaction with Andro tech -- like maybe their weapon works well against shields (especially Mag multi-layer shields) but against PAs does not cause degradation. Or maybe they rely heavily on some kind of ship-guided seeking weapon whose guidance can't be transferred. Ergo, if a Chomak gets displaced, the disruption in fire control completely ruins its attack.

By Stephen E. Parrish (Steveparrish) on Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 09:23 am: Edit

Andy: Those are interesting suggestions. But I think that it would be better, game wise, if there could be some good, evenly matched battles between the Andros and the Chomaks.

By Stephen E. Parrish (Steveparrish) on Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 09:23 am: Edit

Andy: Those are interesting suggestions. But I think that it would be better, game wise, if there could be some good, evenly matched battles between the Andros and the Chomaks, and that the Chomaks went down, or ran, only after a bitter struggle.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 12:07 pm: Edit

Here's what's defined:

Y36: Early Years Eneen encounter Chomak ships. The Chomak ships are far enough advanced of them in capabilities that the Eneen expand west (towards the Baduvai) rather than North (towards the Chomak). What the Chomak were doing is not recorded in any Eneen records.

Y67: Without any communications or notifications, the Chomak withdraw from the Cloud. No installations are found, though there's evidence of resource gathering.

Y122: A Chomak squadron finishes circumscribing the Fringe. It makes contact with the Baduvai outside the Neutral Worlds.

Y138: The first Infestor reaches the Fringe

Y141: First losses to Andromedans (unconfirmed)

Y145: First desecrator completed.

Y146: Andromedan invasion of cloud commences.

Y151: Second desecrator built

Y154: First desecrator destroyed

Y157: Baduvai and Eneen homeworlds fall. Some elements escape to the Fringe

Y160: Andromedans have control over all the former territories of the Eneen, Baduvai and Uthiki

Y163-165: A Chomak task force attempts to infiltrate into Andromedan controlled space. After three engagements, it retreats.

Y170: Andromedan operations begin in the Milky Way in earnest

Y172: Andromedans encounter Chomak itself. The Chomak keep them from making an RTN link for a decade or so.

Y182: Maghadim Squadron in Exile helps the Chomak destroy two Sat Bases. Unfortunately, they missed one, and a major assault on the Chomak happens anyway.

Y184: Andromedan Dominator with Super Energy Modules breaks into the Core.

Y185: Chomak fleet production facilities are destroyed. Chomak forces are scattered.

I was told to 'leave the door open' for more races in the LMC timeline if the product were successful.

I was told that the Magellanic powers had to fall by Y185 - all of them.

I was told there still had to be functional Magellanic ships circa Y205 when the Galactic Powers arrived.

The Magellanics have asteroid ship yards copied from Jindarians. I have no idea where the money for these shipyards (or refits and repairs of existing ships, or construction of new fighters or the Baduvai Interceptors...) comes from.

My original solution to this was that the Chomak had been largely ignored by the Andromedans and provided money, but not ships. Given that the Chomak show up every 40 years or so, I felt this could have been justified.

This was rejected.

The circumscribing of the Fringe would have taken an F&E speed 4 Magellanic ship about 8 years to do. An F&E speed 6 GP ship would have done it in about 5 years.

It could just as easily be "Ships with some inherent fabrication capabilities" as being a superior speed. It was meant to be an ambiguous hook for POSSIBLY justifying the Chomak as having an F&E speed of 6 if desired. We didn't specify when the circumnavigation started, or how long it took - to leave openings for future use.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 02:56 pm: Edit

Ken Burnside:

Where does the money come from?

Where does the money come from that keeps the Jindarians in operation at all?

The Magellanic survivors essentially scavenged, looted, and prospected as much as they could as has been explained to you.

Yes, every year there would be fewer Magellanic ships. Most losses would have been almost impossible to replace not just because of the ship, but because of the difficulty in raising crews.

The steady inexorable decline of the surviving Magellanic forces is one of the things that makes it possible for the Andromedans to reduce their garrison of Magellanic Space to minimal forces (mostly sleds with a few mothership/disdev ships as strategic reserves) and mass against the Milky Way.

Yes, given another decade or so, there would only have been Jindarians left as a space capable force in the Magellanic Cloud besides the Andromedans.

But the Chomak cannot survive as a threat to the Andromedan Logistics. If the Chomak survive, the Andormedans would NOT be able to invade the Milky Way because of the threat the Chomak pose to the one remaining desecrator.

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 03:36 am: Edit

A question-- for those of us thinking of using the Magallanics as races within the Milky way in tholian/wyn style enclaves, how do they stack up against mid-general war era ships? their lack of X-ship's and large ships seem to critically weaken them compared to late war forces, but they seem able (so long as they aren't out numbered) to stand against mid-year galactic fleets.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 01:38 am: Edit

Charles, they should do fairly well; they have comparative advantages in smaller hulls.

By Robert Russell Lender-Lundak (Rusman) on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 03:48 am: Edit

Sorry to everyone for commenting so late in the conversation...

Charles,

It could also be said that the earlier that your group decides to start a campaign, the better the Magellanic "Enclave" ships would fair against Galactic Powers ships. This is especially true of the GP early years ships which are IMO, horribly underpowered and armed compared to most of the Magellanic ships of the same class. Of course this this is all true only to a point, but I think you get what I mean.

The point I'm making is that the YIS dates for most Magellanic units make for comparatively more powerful Magellanics than their Galactic counterparts for the same YIS dates in earlier Middle Years or Early years.

In late years or General War era GP ships have a decided equality if not the advantage however.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Thursday, September 30, 2010 - 08:27 am: Edit

By the time the Alpha Quad powers show up during the Andro War, the Magellenic ships are completely outclassed tech-wise.

Fast drones, megafighters, and plasma (not to mention SABOT plasma...) curbstomp any Magellenic crazy enough to fight them.

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Thursday, September 30, 2010 - 10:04 pm: Edit

Wouldn't the galactic powers give them access to X-technology? My reasoning is this, if the Magellanic powers can reclaim their old territories and defend them, the Andromedans, will never get a foothold in them again and never try to re-invade the Alpha Octant. Unless of course, the Alpha powers want to take over The Magellanic cloud.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Friday, October 01, 2010 - 07:39 am: Edit

"Wouldn't the galactic powers give them access to X-technology?"

Probably buy it from the Feds/Orions.

"Unless of course, the Alpha powers want to take over The Magellanic cloud."

Not even the Klingons are that crazy. Very long supply line, easily disrupted.

By Alex Lyons (Afwholf) on Friday, December 31, 2010 - 11:37 pm: Edit

just as an idea since im still new to all of this, but alot of LMC is small class things that can be overran with force, maybe the chomaks could have more ships in the BC-DN range making them stronger, but not strong enough to want to invade the other LMC's.
in response to thier withdrawl, they have been confirmed to be highly advanced compared to the rest so possibly they could have higher sensor ratings in order to detect other races at a much larger distance, i tend to also think of them more defencive when it comes to andromedans based on the fact they see the difference between them and the adromedans, of that between them of the lesser LMCs.
therefore providing andromedans with the power and skill advantage needed to beat them however proving them still strong enough to hold thier own against andromedans for alittle bit.

By Jacob Karpel (Psybomb) on Sunday, January 09, 2011 - 08:08 pm: Edit

Alex:

I like that idea a lot. "Long experience in space has taught this empire that they need to see a threat in order to do anything about it, so there they focused" or some such. Give the Chomak ships a higher max sensor and perhaps a general rule letting them all gather Tac Intel as Scouts (and their own scout ships having 50% further range). They build fewer, larger ships (also a bit faster on a strategic level than most Magellanic powers), not seeing the need to scatter forces due to known sensor superiority, and are taken WAY off-guard by RTN capabilities. Their way of war is utterly dependent on being able to move around better than their opponents. Andros come in and mop their minimal defensive emplacements, their ships get taken out before long due to lacking supply support.

-The area around Chomak itself was much more heavily defended, and their already-excellent sensors serve as superior early-warning systems whenever the Andros attempt to set up an RTN node nearby. The problem here is just how bad the damage is getting in the REST of their empire, and this ends up being their undoing.

-Eneen decided to leave them alone due to there being a big ship EVERYWHERE they tried to go. In reality, it was only 2-3 actual ships, but they move faster and could tell where the Eneen were about to pop up.

-Heavy weapon will probably be antimatter-based, meant for sniping. Something along the lines of Prox Torpedoes with the hit table carried out further. Makes maximum use of their sensor capabilities allowing them to wear down possible opponents, possibly even before they have more than minimal shields up. Probably has a more powerful close-range (read 16-ish) option.

-Ships are larger, probably along Galactic lines, and lean a bit more heavily towards Lab boxes and having similarly tough outer shields. Magellanic shielding on something that size would be a serious pain to take out for anything that wasn't packing major heat, but a larger Andro ship would probably sweep it under easily.

Just my two cents, though it's getting more along the dime range :D

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Sunday, January 09, 2011 - 09:27 pm: Edit

The Chomak have heavy weapons, secondary weapons, a phaser analog and a defensive system all built. ADB did not like the background I wrote for the Chomak, which postulated them as a source for funding and spare parts for the guerrilla war LMC powers from Y186 to Y205.

In the end, whether what I wrote for the Chomak is used, remains, or gets rewritten entirely is up to ADB.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Sunday, January 09, 2011 - 11:30 pm: Edit

Hey! I missed this one.

When are we likely to see the next LMC module, Chomak, and Yorl Septs??

Friendly question, not intended as "DO THIS NOW!"

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, January 10, 2011 - 07:44 am: Edit

Ken:

Would those be the Energy Mantlet, Chomak Pulsar, Fuser Torpedo and Warp Lock Torpedo mentioned in the Y-section of Module C5?

I do like the idea of them having a distinct phaser-analogue; makes me think of how elder powers in Triangulum, such as the Helgardians and Imperium, retain unique technologies (graviton beams and linear accelerators respectively) compared to more widely-spread systems (proton pulse emitters and pulse phasers) noted as being used by a wider array of more recently emerging Triangulum powers, such as the Arachnids and Mallarans.

-----

Actually, from a background perspective at least, I had a couple of ideas concerning how the Chomak could be handled.

Please note, the following is purely my own speculation; though I'd hope there might be at least some of it that could be of interest.

*Over in Omega, the Mæsron Alliance is not named after any particular species; its name comes from the Treaty of Mæsra, signed in Y19 between the governments of its three founding members (Tazol, Wallimi, Vulpa). What if the Chomak Community were to be something similar; a literal "community" of formerly-disparate planets?

*To take this idea further, I wanted to use the GURPS Tech Levels to try and frame the rest of my idea; apologies for those of you used to the D20/M version of things.

In what would become ISC space, the five founding planets all developed TL 9 (non-tactical warp) at roughly the same time, but all five had the same problems with their versions of such engines; short range and unreliability. (Indeed, according to Y3, they would also problems with tactical warp engines, too; taking several decades to overcome the limitations their engineers had with forming stable warp fields around larger and more physically diverse starship hulls.)

Perhaps the first batch of TL 9 planets in the Chomak Cluster had similar problems. An engine that can only take you less than a hundred parsecs safely would just about be enough to allow for (slow) exploration of a densely-packed star cluster, but would be a severe limitation in terms of trying to cross the Fringe into the LMC proper.

Indeed, you could have several "clusters" of neighbouring planets in Chomak space; each with a handful of powers just close enough to be within reach of each other, but far enough away from other clusters to restrict trade/conflict with more distant clusters.

*In terms of trying to overcome this problem, perhaps there could be a certain set of trace elements and minerals that are key to modern Chomak tactical warp drives that, for whatever reason, are not found in Chomak home space, but are present in northern regions of the LMC proper.

My thought was to have a particular cluster of species in the hex marked by the "C" on the LMC map (the site of the future Chomak capital?) form the earliest iteration of the modern Community; solely intended to implement a long-term project to build a chain of outposts and supply points in the Fringe space between their hex and the LMC proper. After centuries' worth of effort, after overcoming more than a few pitfalls, the first ship to arrive in the LMC proper would discover the trace elements key to Chomak tactical warp technology.

Eventually, the Chomak would develop TL10 (W-era tactical warp) and use it to consolidate the entire Cluster into a single political entity. However, the W-engines would still have limits, making travel to and from the LMC proper a complicated affair.

*The early expansion into the northern LMC provinces would only come in TL11 (the Y-era); Chomak ships would be fast and reliable enough to make the journey across, and their logistical abilities would be expanded upon in order to facilitate more mining colonies on northern LMC worlds.

In terms of population, one could postulate a combination of a stay-at-home mentality among certain member species, a Helgardian-esque slow population growth rate in others, and a simple lack of the desired trace elements beyond their hitherto-claimed provinces, to put a cap on actual colonization efforts within the LMC proper.

*By the time the Chomak reach TL 12 (Middle Years tech), there could be a key breakthrough in Chomak home space; the ability to synthesize their own supplies of the necessary trace elements, albeit in limited quantities. Logistically, the would still need to rely on imports from northern LMC mining outposts to supply the bulk of their needs, but a combination of this new technology and careful stockpiling of their imported supplies would allow for them to plan ahead.

It would be this era which would also see the Chomak develop the ability to send expeditions throughout the entire LMC; from the southern tip of the Cloud to the Core region. These expeditions would catalogue the various species encountered; the Baduvai, Eneen, Jumokians, Maghadim, Uthiki, etc. There may have been a debate among various Chomak factions as to whether or not to integrate these species into the Community, to quarantine them, or to leave them to develop by themselves; the latter option would prevail, leaving the Chomak resolved to stay in the space they had already claimed to this point.

*Eventually, these younger species would go into space, forming the first "young" powers; the Baduvai Imperium, Jumokian League, Eneen Protectorates, etc. The Eneen would be the first to approach Chomak-held space, but would be dissuaded from expanding in that direction.

Perhaps, at this point, there was some sort of emergency which forced the withdrawal from the northern LMC in Y67. Perhaps a particularly fierce swarm of Banshees swept through Fringe space, critically affecting the supply nodes supporting operations beyond the Chomak cluster. Perhaps a Death Probe, Ancient Space Dragon or Sun Snake ravaged key systems within the Community proper, forcing a contraction and consolidation. Or perhaps an uprising among certain dissatisfied planets (perhaps a few which had been held under quarantine by the Community, but had attempted to break out of their confinement) sparked a dangerous conflict which required the forces in the northern LMC to be resolved.

In any case, one could have it that by the time this consolidation was finished, the Eneen and Baduvai were already duking it out in the Northern War; the Chomak would have had to fight to re-claim their formerly-held systems, but might not have had the appetite for such a conflict.

So, the Chomak would spend the next several decades sizing up the various Magellanic powers, retaining a somewhat aloof posture at least until the Andromedans begin their campaign to conquer the LMC.

*When it comes to resisting the Andromedan Invasion, an unforeseen consequence of being cut off from their former LMC colonies might only arise when straining to resist the invaders. Their stockpiles and matter-conversion techniques might have been sufficient in peacetime, but could have been overwhelmed by the need to build more hulls and weapons in order to fight the Andromedans. By the Y180s, the Chomak may have simply run out of their stockpiles, or perhaps been forced to secrete their last caches into Jindarian-esque asteroid shipyards, by the time the Andros closed in on the Chomak capital.

*By the time Operation Unity comes around, the Chomak ships in exile would, like those of the Triple Pact, seek to re-establish control of their home space; however, this time, they might need to also think about where their next supplies of trace materials would come from.

Unless they find (or are given) a way to do without said elements, or if they shift to some sort of TL 13 (advanced technology) dynamic that they could use resources in the home cluster to operate, there might be a need for them to consider a return to the northern LMC provinces; an act which might not go down too well with the consolidating Triple Pact powers. (That said, there could be competing factions in Chomak space; some wanting to secure such resources directly, others willing to trade for them with the Triple Pact empires.)


Thus, the post-occupation Chomak might have a reason to forego their former policy of isolation; adding to the potential uncertainty in the post-Unity era.


So, how does any of that sound?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, January 10, 2011 - 08:22 am: Edit

One other thing; two of the Chomak weapons listed above are noted as being plasma-alikes. If it turned out that Chomak phaser-analogues were better at grinding down plasma-Es, while Chomak seekers had the standard 3:1 ratio when being shot at by warp-tuned lasers, that could help explain how the Chomak managed to succesfully "dissuade" the Eneen, but may have had more trouble with Jindarian or Andromedan encounters (or with space monsters, for that matter).

By Alex Lyons (Afwholf) on Monday, January 10, 2011 - 04:04 pm: Edit

well people argue the andromedans would not have left the chomaks behind them, but what if the andromedans didnt know they were there? like if your out paintballing and on each side of you is a hill, both hills have enemies behind them, when you discover one group you totally forget about the other hill leaving those people to hide in saftey. the chomaks could just be forgotten

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, January 10, 2011 - 05:01 pm: Edit

Ken: you were told before that your "invincible Chomak" theory was nonsense and had already been rejected. The published history says that the Andros defeated them. Hence, you already know that your ridiculous "history" for the Chomak was already rejected, eliminated, and declared void. It will not (cannot be) "restored" or "used" so please stop trying to sneak it back in. This is NOT the first time we have had to smack you down on this issue but it had better be the LAST time.