Romulan ships have that problem in general. Very few CR10 units. It's not unique to the KH.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, May 05, 2010 - 07:42 pm: Edit

John,

Heavy hawks are not considered a BCH, just the equivalent. See (S8.333). If the Romulan heavy hawks were a BCH then these could not have been converted to an X-ship.

I agree with Alan, empires will build smaller ships first. A DB based on the DDX would work just fine. I still think a Fed CLX is needed. It would fill the roll of the pre-general war CA. This ship could also fill Loren's light X-raider. The era of the SHC-X would be around Y194.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, May 05, 2010 - 07:52 pm: Edit

Joe Carlson,

Heavy hawks are not considered a BCH, just the equivalent. See (S8.333).

That's the rule for the Novahawk and Royalhawk (Don't think the superhawk is even considered a BCH and it's the base hull for the KH), for sure. I'm not sure that would fly for the KH. You would have to check the KH ship description too for an exception to the rule. Don't have books handy though.

Common sense says you cannot make a KHX until other races get BCHXes regardless of the way the rules.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, May 05, 2010 - 08:36 pm: Edit

John,

I have my books out. (R4.N3) includes the Superhawk, Superhawk-B, Killerhawk, Thunderhawk, Novahawk, Royalhawk, Flamehawk, Sunhawk, and Regalhawk.

The KHK and NHX are, obviously similar. The KHK has eight APR in the rear hull and NHX none. The NHX has four additional rear (aft) hull and two additional lab boxes. To make the KHX: Reduce the APR to four; X-plasma weapons would be two PL-S, PL-R, and two PL-L. The NHX has two PL-M and two PL-S. The number of phasers would remain the same at 11 but would all be PH-1s. Leave the KHX shields as is: Shields 1, 2, and 6 are heavier by a few boxes; shields 3, 4, and 5 are lighter by a few boxes.

I would prefer to see a Thunderhawk converted X-technology. Would be a great RTN hunter.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, May 05, 2010 - 08:55 pm: Edit

I haven't checked the rules lately but if you match up the superhawk and Killerhawk SSDs you'll see a lot of similarity. Back in the Real Old Days of SFB, the KH was a SH conversion, mostly adding the R-torp and the changing the fighter bays to APR. These designs predated the Novahawk by a number of years.

I don't dispute that the KH is a Heavy Hawk. It obviously is. Just that the romulns could build a KHX. I could be wrong. I have been plenty of times about stuff like this.

The line between CC and BCH is as narrow as the line between the Fed CB and BCG. You can make an x-ship out of one but not the other. I would argue that whatever factor keeps there from being a Fed BCGX ought to keep the romulans from making a KHX. Certainly if weapons density is a factor, then the addition of an R-torp makes for a big break between the KH and the NH (which has the same firepower as a FH, just more support systems)

Remember also the KH is NOT a CC. It is a Super-Heavy Cruiser and the ability to make a SHCX is undefined as of now.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, May 05, 2010 - 11:12 pm: Edit

Alan,

The R section (R4.37) says the KH can only be converted from Superhawks/Novahawks. The KHK was considered a failed design. The NHX is a more balanced design over a KHX. I don't know if a KHX could be built nor why it couldn't be built. Your reasoning is sound.

There seems to be some acceptance that you can make the rear hull of Federation cruiser larger by a small degree but not the saucer. least that is my impression. It is the idea I used to suggest the CBX above.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, May 06, 2010 - 11:55 am: Edit

I wouldn't want to convert anything that suffers from shock into an X-ship.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, May 06, 2010 - 12:00 pm: Edit

I've got a list of the original ships that were considered in X1R. I will have to do some clean up in order to exclude those that have been printed, but will get to it eventually.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 05:21 pm: Edit

CL #41 has the class history of the Federation Byrd GS class ships, which the Einstein GSX class ships were based on. I would like to see a GS class ship based on the CX. It would be the HGX class ships. The lessons learned from the late GW, ISC war, and the first part of the Andro war would influence the design. I propose a YIS of Y197.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 01:16 am: Edit

One use of partial x-refits that might not be too difficult would be the use of x-batteries on vessels with a chronic shortage of reserve power. This would be a (relatively) inexpensive way of improvement the combat worth of certain ships.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 09:21 am: Edit

The problem with such refits, while logical, is that it is a potential "Game Breaker"... it leads to ships that are able to move at maximum speed of 31 hexes per turn, and reload all phasers (atleast 1 time, perhaps a bit more) and assuming there is a power refit (such as the Feds got with the APR/WPR refits) the ability to reload one photon (and other races the ability to reload their heavy weapons (such as the Klingons could, using their disrupters.)

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 09:43 am: Edit

Partial x-refits are a part of the game, it's something you can do when creating a force after the proper year and under the listed guidelines (it is not an optional rule).

Otoh, I think I posted this in an inappropriate topic. The hazards of late night thinking.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 04:27 pm: Edit

Federation X-ships with Type-L Plasma Torpedos

I don't recall whether this has been previously proposed or not, but I would like to see plasma-L versions of the DDX and FFX. (I don't know what you would call the X-tech DDL. DLX is already used for the extremely powerful but impossible-to-build X-tech version of the DNL light dreadnought.)

One objection to this proposal would be that giving the Feds plasma-L torps would be "tech sloshing". But I don't think this objection really holds up well under inspection. The Feds can already field plasma-L torps by applying the XR4.25 XP-refit to a DDL or FFL. It would be a peculiar interpretation to say that the Feds can have type-L plasma torpedos on their partial-X ships but not on their fully converted X-ships.

A second objection might be that, given the power of the X-photon, this isn't a very useful conversion. But there is at least one thing that these plasma-L equipped ships can do better than their all-photon counterparts can do. They are better hunters of cloaked ships since the plasma-L can be used as a carronade. The DDX and FFX would presumably remain the primary X-ships on these hulls but I think it likely that the Feds would deploy some plasma-L versions as well.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 09:55 am: Edit

Was the Federation building F-torps or were they still buying them from the Gorn. If they independently built the torps and developed/co-developed with Gorn help the X-tech then I could see them building these ships.

If the torpedos were still imports I can't see the Gorn giving X-tech weapons to their allies when they could be using them to build their own ships.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 10:51 pm: Edit

Jon,

I don't recall whether it's ever been officially stated where the Feds get F-torps from. But even if they are getting them from the Gorns, that doesn't mean the Gorns are "giving X-tech weapons to their allies". It's more likely that the Federation would purchase the L-torps, plus spare parts and other associated items. That could give the Gorns plenty of incentive to supply the weapons to the Federation.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 - 10:05 am: Edit

As X-tech is rare I don't think the Gorns would want to sell. I'm assuming the weapons are some of the hard to produce bits. Selling a pair of L-Torps to the Fed could easily mean one less X-destroyer for the Gorn Navy.

Once X-refits become common and there begin to be as many X-ships as conventional warship then maybe the Gorn would part with them.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 - 12:08 pm: Edit

Jon,

But if X-tech were too rare, there wouldn't be XP-refits. And as I pointed out earlier, the Feds can already, under the current XP rules, refit F-torps to L-torps.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Gorns would be willing to sell L-torps to the Feds if the price were high enough. There are a few types of very special technology that the owners would probably not willingly share for any material compensation. Tholian web technology is in that catergory and Klingon stasis field generators probably are as well. L-torps don't make the cut. So it's purely a matter of whether the Feds would be willing to offer a price that the Gorns would be willing to accept.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 01:03 pm: Edit

Federation X-ships with Gatling Phasers

The Federation can produce its own gatling phasers, though only in limited numbers. Fed gatling phasers are currently restricted to ships directly concerned with fighter operations, escorts and a few of their largest and most important carriers such as the CVA and SCS. It seems to me that this restriction makes less sense later in the X-tech era. We know that X-tech made fighters obsolete, but that it didn't happen over night. Some carriers and fighters were still in operation more than a decade after X-tech was first introduced. It appears that X-tech resulted in a gradual reduction in the use of fighters (and their carriers and escorts) over time. As these units were gradually being phased out, the Feds would presumably find that they had "excess capacity" for producing phaser-Gs. They could build more of these systems than could be used by the dwindling numbers of escorts. Eventually, they would be able to deploy at least a few phaser-Gs on other warships but only the most important such ships, the X-cruisers, would receive this mod within the time frame of the game.

I propose that starting in the late Y-180s (no earlier than Y-187)or early Y-190s the Feds field a small number of X-cruisers with 2 of the phaser-1s replaced by phaser-Gs. This would slightly reduce their long range direct fire but increase their short range fire power and seeking weapon defense. It might be argued that with the phaser-1X ability to rapid-pulse fire, the trade off isn't worth it. But the Hydrans and LDR both field X-ships with phaser-Gs already, so they apparently found the trade off to be acceptable. I submit the same logic would impel the Feds to field at least a few such ships, though I also expect that the current "all phaser-1" versions would continue to be the most commonly employed.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 03:04 pm: Edit

I dunno, Alan,

General-combat Feds have a lot of close-range firepower as it is. Adding gats could be overkill.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 06:43 pm: Edit

Too bad you couldn't invent a phaser gatling option for X-ships.

You already have the ability to down fire phaser 1s and phaser 2's as phaser 3's... giving 2nd Generation Fed (and possibly Hydrans?!?) X-ships the ability to fire their phaser 1s as 3 or 4 phaser 3's would make attrition units (PFs, Interceptors, Mega Fighters and fighters) obsolete... just as star fleet history says that they are.

Just a thought.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 06:59 pm: Edit

Bad idea.

Original (as in early-1980s-vintage) X-tech allowed all P-1s to be fired as gats. The original Fed CX has 16 of those suckers. 12 phasers and rapid-pulse mode is what survived playtest and common sense.

The 16/gat was also a part of the first attempt at X2 and proved too powerful there too.

Too much phaser robs ships of their individual character. Personally, I tend to think X1 is still over-phasered but that ship has long sailed.

By Reid Hupach (Gwbison) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 08:20 pm: Edit

Make a PH-2 gatling, 2 points to arm and duck

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 08:26 pm: Edit

Old old old idea, maybe for X2? (And not this topic). :p

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 12:53 am: Edit

The Borak have such as a beast as non-X-tech in their Ph-C.

It's a fine weapon, but again, unless phasers are your thing (like they are for the Borak), augmenting phasers makes them too much the focus of the ship.

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 01:18 am: Edit

Mike... shhhh

Don't be giving too much about the Borak out just yet.
Let the anticipation build for their June debut