Archive through February 28, 2011
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Tournament Zone:
Omega, Magellanic, and other TCs:
Archive through February 28, 2011
How the internals are arranged makes as much difference as how many there are. The Klink is fragile because it has so little forward hull. The Hydran all-center hull arrangement makes it tough as a titanium brick.
Quote:It needs a free HET. Breakdown 4-6 is a major penalty, and I don't see anything that compensates for it.
I'm hoping that the Turret compensates for the lack of HET. If that turns out to be a problem, than I'll bump up the Breakdown to 5-6.
Well the ship has been e-mailed to Paul with 2 AP-3... If it proves to be a bit light... I can always upgrade it from 2 AP-3 to 4 AP-3.
I left space in the ship outline for them 
One more thing... I couldn't find anywhere that says that SEF are also hit on "Any Weapon"... I made it so that they are hit on Flag Bridge and Any Weapon... but I couldn't find anything that says that is true.
Module G3 and the Omega Master Rulebook are a little silent on systems that are hit on Flag Bridge or Emer getting hit on Any Weapon, even though they should be logically.
The ship looks reasonable except that tourney ships need a 5-6 breakdown rating and shields of 30/24. I don't know why you insist on making balance more difficult by ignoring the patterns for tourney ships.
The turret makes up somewhat for turn mode E, which is a major disadvantage. There's no reason to make it the only TC besides the WYN Aux (which is a special case in many ways) that can't freely HET.
The equal shields don't even fit the Worb historical pattern - most have shields #1-3 and 5-6 identical, and #4 weaker. Overall, their shielding is pretty average. But you've made a ship with less shielding than any TC but the Frax. Why?
As for the SEF, you'd need to look in Annex #7D to see if a system is considered a weapon, and thus hit on ANY WEAPON per (D4.324). Except Annex #7D seems to be missing from the Omega MRB. Strange.
I can't remember anymore, but does the TKE and ATC have 30-30-30-30 shields?
There are at least three tournament ships that aren't 5-6 breakdown (Andro, Orion, WYB) off the top of my head.
It's probably a bad idea to have a ship with one weaker shield, in this case I would agree that the worb should have a standard shield pattern.
The TKE has 30 all around. The ATC is currently 30/27. Both of these ships have had balance issues, albeit at opposite ends of the spectrum.
It's not a big deal to have a ship that has a 6 breakdown like the Andro and Orion. (But note those two ships have had many balance issues.) OTOH, 4-6 IS a big deal.
I upgraded the Worb by doubling the AP-3 last night. Am having second thoughts about that upgrade, but I'll stick with it unless it proves unworkable.
Current weapons count is
2 SSR
2 APB
7 AP-1
4 AP-3 ( 2 LS and 2 RS )
1 SEF
and I promised that Paul that I wouldn't make any more changes to it before it gets some playtest.
As for having less shielding that any ship other than the Frax. I would disagree. It has more shielding than all of the LMC and the Souldra, although they are special cases. I find it interesting that you mentioned the Frax.
Although the overall shielding is a little weaker than average, the difference is very minimal. I could have gone with 27 shields all around and had the same shields, but I didn't want an odd number of shield boxes.
The reason I went with the unusual shield arrangement is that I'm thinking it would work better for the Worb, since the ship is turreted and will tend to fight more out of the side shields than most ships.
Waiting impatiently for Paul to post it.
On another note... I've been having a discussion about Microphasers and plasma.
Consider that
At range 1 a PM-1 averages 6 damage to plasma but an Alpha P-1 averages 2.665 versus plasma
At range 2 a PM-1 averages 5 damage to plasma but an Alpha P-1 averages 2.415 to a plasma.
for PM-3
At range 1 a PM-3 averages 4 damage to plasma while an Alpha P-3 averages 1.836.
At range 2, a PM-3 averages 3 damage to plasma while an Alpha P-3 averages 1.5 damage to plasma.
Seems that PMs are unworkable in the tourney game versus big plasma.
Would anybody like to see a tourney only rule that all tournament PM damage plasma at the standard 1/2 rate?
Yes with all the plasma and plasma like weapons getting damaged at different rates from phasers and phaser like weapons it can be a bit confusing.
Why not have them all do 1/2 damage vs plasma and plasma like weapons. Most of the phaser substitutes are lower damage anyway, like magellenic lasers. They have the opposite problem, shooting the plasma is always among the least desirable options for dealing with them.
Sure it does sound like PM have a huge anti plasma advantage. And magellenics have a pretty big disadvantage vs plasma, they do less damage to start with and when your only doing 1/3 damage to the plasma it really isn't worth the power. But with a PM its the opposite, if 1 energy averages 6 off the warhead at r1, or more if they are PM 3's then shooting the plasma is probably the best way to get rid of it.
Im not sure what the reasoning behind the PM's enhanced plasma killing ability is. Or for that matter why magellenic lasers are so lousy at the job. But i agree it must make balancing new TC's vs all the various types of plasma very hard.
It may work just fine in the historic racial matchups, and maybe its needed there. But the tournament is a cage fight, and with nowhere to run and 2-3 turns to charge the various plasma like weapons it does seem to be a serious balance issue. At least the magellenics move fairly fast usually, thats the best plasma defense in my opinion. But honestly if they were also given a tournament rule upping laser damage vs all plasma types from 1/3 to 1/2 i think it would help to level the playing field.
The damage the lasers would do is less than phasers anyway, they don't really need to be stuck doing only 1/3 damage vs plasma. The only real advantage i see for magellenics vs big plasma is that the EPT feeds right into the VRF's advantage. So the EPT isn't really the best option with all the outer shield at full power. Maybe they were put at 1/3 damage for that reason and because they fly fast and prefer longer ranges where the VRF is most effective. But sooner or later they get cornered, then the high yield of many alpha octant weapons becomes too much.
My question is there any good reason to keep these oddballl phaser like weapons at there funky plasma damage rates. Wouldn't an across the board 1/2 damage vs plasma in tournements only really simplify things. Honestly at 1/3 damage i don't think i would ever shoot a plasma with LMC lasers. Even if increased to 1/2 its not even going to bring them to normal phaser damage levels. They will always be weak at plasma killing, why do they need to be that weak?
I would say that RPS matchups in tournament situations were probably not really considered when they came up with these oddball phasers and plasma damage rates. When you consider that these new plasma type weapons are not super high yield compared to the old alpha plasma, things like a PM can really mess up say Eneen plasma which is much weaker to begin with.
Im all for keeping racial flavor in the TC's, but if some of the rules make them completly unbalanced in a cage fight, then why not do a simple change to fix it.
I think your suggestion Barry is a no brainer, the magellenic lasers there could be something im overlooking. So by all means lets playtest some PM's vs BP at both damage rates and see if it really hurts the PM packing ship. I didn't check your math on the PM, but if im not mistaken even at 1/2 they do better damage than a phaser 1 or 3 vs plasma at r1.
I think if on average 5 PM 1's can completly destroy a standard plasma S at range 1 then the PM 1 is broken in the tournament. Unlike drones where expending the enemies resources dealing with the drones is ok, plasma needs to do damage or the plasma ship will never win.
I've managed to lose in the Koligahr to a Romulan, but only because I made a very stupid move. I agree that for balance purposes, all phasers should do 1:2 versus plasma, except that all phasers should do 1:3 versus HEAT torpedoes. DMTs should keep their regular rule, and if there is ever a Triaxian, its plasma-As should keep the 1:1 for short-ranged and 1:3 for long ranged.
I don't have my rules in front of me, but isn't there another Omega phaser (PQ?) that does 1:3 versus plasma? If so, it should do 1:2.
With this change, the Koligahr TC is probably a tad weak. The ACs are inaccurate, short-ranged, and have split arcs, and the PM, while nice in some ways, really suffers at medium ranges. It might need ACGs that hold 6 energy.
What kind of knock-on effect might such a PM change make for other microphaser users, such as the Loriyill and Bolosco?
(Granted, the Loriyill are primarily PQ users, while the Bolosco have four other phaser types to choose from...)
Speaking of PQs, so far as I can tell, they do 2:1 (or 3:1 against HEATs) normally.
Quote:I don't have my rules in front of me, but isn't there another Omega phaser (PQ?) that does 1:3 versus plasma? If so, it should do 1:2.
Andy, your thinking of the LMC warp tuned lasers that do 1:3 damage versus plasma. I have no problem with that, because those ships are designed to fight at longer ranges anyway where plasma is weaker.
As for going to ACGs with 6 energy... Not a problem.
Quote:What kind of knock-on effect might such a PM change make for other microphaser users, such as the Loriyill and Bolosco?
Well...
The Omega Master Rulebook says that the Loriyill consider the quantum phasers as their primary phasers. Which actually doesn't make sense.
The main historical opponent of the Loriyill is the Souldra, who are armed with a plasma style weapon. So, they will be affected. On the other hand, the Loriyill ships are all dancers. They have excellent turn modes and tend to be very fast. So, they would already be excellent versus plasma.
Now having said that, Souldra DMT are a different type of plasma. They tend to do very little damage, but have an exceedingly long range. The DMTs are more like drones, in that any damage insufficient to stop them doesn't reduce the warhead at all.
It's very likely that the Bolosco will be fighting races armed with plasma at some point and certainly the Koligahr tend to fight the Probr from time to time who are armed with plasma.
So, historically, this will affect all those races, to a certain extent.
I'm just saying that because of the 1/1 damage against plasma, ships which would be balanced against non plasma races, will be vastly more powerful against plasma races.
Just trying to reduce the RPS effects.
Yes, it is a good way to reduce RPS. As for historical opponents, it doesn't matter for the tourney. If you are asking whether it would be good for general SFB, it might be, but it would have to be part of a comprehensive rewrite which isn't going to happen.
Anyway, for both the Loriyill and Bolosco TCs (once we get a Bolosco), only some of their phasers are PMs (assuming the Bolosco has any) so the effect will not be as much. The Loriyill, as you noted, should be OK versus plasma, even though their flame shields won't help.
As for the Bolosco, a lot depends on what the tourney ship looks like. Their regular ships would struggle against plasma because they are slow, although they don't have to worry so much about getting anchored. A Bolosco TC won't have this problem, and the good weapon arcs will help, so I don't see any inherent reason why the Bolosco TC would have problems.
Josh, originally Magellanic lasers were set at 3:1 for damaging plasma as a 'difference for differences' sake, and to give them a drawback to 'pay for' their longer range.
Later, when the Eneen Plasma E was developed, it was developed SPECIFICALLY around the LMC lasers damaging plasma at 3:1. It's possible for a Magellanic cruiser to phaser down a full strength PL-E, but it's going to take a large chunk of the Laser firepower that might otherwise go at an Eneen ship, and if you turn off from the plasma, the Eneen is now reasonably free to set up his next pass.
The Andromedans were something of an unpleasant surprise; a Medium Laser at range 1 is a bit more damage than a ph-2, but the ph-2 is about 50% more effective at chopping plasma.
Most of the LMC TCs seem to work. They have some ugly matchups against plasma, but those ugly matchups aren't "automatic loss" matchups, and the plasma players grumble about losing the EPT option, and grumble about ships that can damage a shield at range 12...
Both sides have to adjust their tactics; usually the guy playing the Magellanic (or the Omega) ship knows what his opponent can do better than his opponent knows what his ship can do.
(This is one reason why I liked setting up true double blind games where neither player knew what the other ship could do. Talk about encouraging cautious play...)
I think that the PM-1 equipped ships have the potential to phaser down a full strength S torp to negligible damage levels and keep on coming. Each PM-1 is just about 80% of a phaser-G when it comes to plasma reduction.
I could see downgrading the PM-1's plasma defense for tourney if it appears too strong, but I'd be hesitant to upgrade the LMC lasers; the LMC ships seem reasonably balanced, rather than weak.
Yes, I can see vs the weaker LMC plasma that the warp tuned lasers could laser a torp down near the end of its run. Its a plasma S and R that i think they would be crazy to shoot.
And they do have on huge advantage, VRF of course. An alpha plasma ship that EPT's its plasma has doubled its damage output and the power cost of arming, but spread the damage over 6 shields, but most importantly they have multiplied the VRF by a factor of 6. I think it would be pretty dumb to start chucking EPT S torps out at a LMC TC unless its been chewed up for several turns and has a few missing outer shields.
Alpha plasma ships just need to change how they approach the LMC's plasma defenses. Obviously EPT's are not going to be your first choice, and i would think stacking regular plasma is going to be a better choice.
I do know plinking with r12 disruprors is a great way to go to stolvokor in a pine box. At that range lasers are going to hurt the alpha ship more than disruptors can hurt the LMC. I think the key is to minimize the time your in the LMC sweet spot, get to range 4 in almost any alpha octant TC and you have the advantage.
I like the variety that LMC and Omega bring to the game, i for one don't think there is a need for a plasma that gets damaged by phasers at the rate of 7/16, lasers at 5/16, PM's at 11/16. I think my point is fractional accounting for no good reason isn't the kind of variety i want. Now i know those fractions arn't being used for plasma damage, i hope they never are. In a game with this much complexity already can we stick to simple fractions like 1/2, 1/3 etc. I think your probably right miraculously setting the lasers at 1/3 may have worked out great, but I certainly don't want the powers that be thinking we love new fractions sprinkled through the new rules just for the sake of variety. And at times thats the way it appears, I mean does omega elaborate on why the PM does such fantastic damage vs plasma, is there some logical or historical reason. And we are talking tournament only changes i think here so if there are compelling reasons for the PM to damage plasma at 1/1 in historical scenario's we havn't touched that with a tournament only rule on PM.
I look forward to playing the fruits of your labors Barry, and think the work your doing is wonderful. I know having seen essentially the same TC's for the entire time ive played the game back to pre doomsday. Its nice to have these new ships for when I want something new for a change. I appreciate the hard work you do on these TC's Barry, and am honored that you use me to sound off ideas on. I am a newcomer, Omega and LMC are both very new to me, there are times when I see why SFBOL is called the shark pool I can tell you. Its guys like you keep me coming back for my medicine.
Now if we only had a Chomak TC, lol. I know there saving that for the Diamond aniversary C5 printing. Like a Seltorian Drone i may not live long enough to see that happen, curse this frail body.
Gaius-Josh
I would disagree that EPTs don't work against LMC ships. The VRF used to make LMC ships virtually immune to them, but under the rules that were published, not so much. Basically, the LMC ship will take 1/2 the damage on its shields, but since its shields are only about 2/3 the size of those on an AQ ship, that means an EPT is 75% as effective versus LMC ships as it is against AQ ships.
A 25% reduction in EPT damage is nothing to sneeze at, but hardly renders the EPT ineffective. And the above assumes full shields; once shields get weakened, the EPT gets better.
Now, the LMC inner shielding will make attrition games more difficult, and the ability of the LMC ships to do effective damage at range 12 will put pressure on the ballet. However, in those kind of attrition games, shield reinforcement and shooting at plasma become bigger factors, and these are two areas where the LMC is disadvantaged.
Guys,
Just spent two days with Paul Franz at Gamers of Winter Con. We sat down and went over the tournament Omega cruisers and client support for them.
The following things will be addressed/fixed in the upcoming client update in the next few days.
1. All Omega phasers will now work properly.
Alunda had the biggest upgrades.
1. Whipcrack torpedoes will now be launchable properly.
2. ARF will be in Direct Fire.
3. Plasma Cloud Generators now have IA segment.
5. A-Batteries will now default to 5 power each in them.
Maesron should have latest Tachyon Missiles.
Kolighar will have SSD updates.
1. PM will now damage plasma 1/2
2. ACG cap has been increased from 4 to 6
Loriyill
1. PM will now damage plasma 1/2
2. Flame shields now have a segment in IA
Drex
1. Light Hypercannons now have proper mode. There are SSD changes.
2. There is a bug in the text I'll have to fix.
Souldra
1. DMP are now heavy and light. Can't remember if heavy can fire as light though.
2. DMT are no longer in direct fire.
Probr
1. TA are in direct fire.
2. HEAT are not in direct fire
3. HEAT can be accentuated and can now go speed 64
Hiver
1. Should be able to launch fighters
2. Hiver ship is changing from CA to BC
Vari
1. Can now use Particle phaser stabilizers, they are in direct fire segment of IA.
Chlorophon.
1. Subspace Coagulators now have a proper segment in IA.
Trobrin
1. Implosion Torps are no longer in direct fire.
Worb
1. Ship has been added to tourney.
2. Turrets may work properly
3. Subspace rocket support has been added.
4. SEF support has been added and a SEF segment has been added to IA.
That's all I can remember... Enjoy
Took the Worb out of the stable for the first time ever today.
BaldnForty ( Worb ) defeats Tugger ( TKR ) is four turns.
Worb started at top and Rom at bottom.
Turn 1, Worb plotted 28/14/28 and Rom plotted 28/16/26...
Worb had turret facing RF+R for turn 1.
Around impulse 6 or so Worb turned in direction C.
Impulse 10 Romulan fired the Plasma-S A launcher with an EPT. and turned in direction B.
Worb slipped out and started running out EPT. By end of turn the plasma was 4 hexes behind the Worb and the Rom was about 20 hexes out or so.
Turn 2.
Worb plotted speed ( 28/15/29 ) and Rom plotted speed ( 15/26 ).
Worb ran out the first EPT completely and Rom launched a second EPT from the B launcher. Worb ran along the east wall and fired 6 AP-1 and 1 AP-3 at the plasma at range 1. Those AP are vicious at range 1, and dropped the plasma down to 21 left.
Worb than turned and chased Rom across the board.
Turn 3..
Worb plotted speed ( 15/29 ) and Rom plotted speed 26 the whole turn.
Impulse 16 rom fired the C laucher with a plasma F.
Impulse 24, the Worb fired 4 AP-1 and 1 AP-3 at range 1 and got really good dice rolls. Plasma went poof.
Impulse 32, Rom fired 5 P-1 at range 5 savaging the Worb #1 shield.
During the whole game so far Worb had kept the turret set for RF+R.
Turn 3 ended with Romulan near the south west corner and up against the south wall... Worb was headed in direction E at range 5 with the Rom well in the FA arc. Worb had satisfied turn mode.
Turn 4.
Worb plotted ( 15/29/15) Rom plotted ( 0 / ? )
Worb rotated the turret to FA.
Impulse 1, Rom launched the A launcher with an S.
Impulse 2, Rom engaged the cloak.
Impulse 3, Worb got his first move and moved to range 4. Worb than fired both SSR.
Impulse 4, Worb slipped in direction F maintaining range 4. Worb than accelerated to speed 29 and fired the alpha strike 2 APB and 6 AP-1 at Rom.
Rom was at +3 on cloak at that point.
SSR treat cloak differently than almost all other weapons, in that effective range is used for damage and true range is used for hit chance.
Both SSR hit and one APB hit. Total damage did 13 in to Rom and only hit one hull box.
Worb was able to turn and run at that point, and would have run out the plasma to about range 11, but would have a chance to fire both AP-3 and a single AP-1 at the plasma before it hit the rear shield.
Rom conceded at that point claiming that the Worb was a monster.
I would say that their is some truth in that. It's been pointed out that the Worb doesn't have any free HETs, but I don't see that as a disadvantage even with turn mode E because that turret more than makes up for it.
While this was only the first battle, I tend to agree that this ship is not a weakling.
One thing that can be done, would be to reduce one of the AP-1 in the turret to an AP-3... I'm thinking of AP-1 #5.
Another change, and I'm not sure if this would weaken the ship would be to change on the SSR to a lance.
Suggestions anyone?
I would not change it, other than give it the free HET that it should have as a tourney ship. One thing about the Worb is their ships ARE monsters if you are inexperienced against them. Once you learn how to fly against them, they are not so tough. The short range of their phasers and SSRs makes them somewhat one-dimensional.
The Romulan strategy did not look particularly effective. If you park against a loaded Worb, you die. The Romulan needs to keep moving, and needs to stay closer to the Worb, while avoiding range 4.
This is not to fault Tugger's play. It does point out the issues we face in playtesting these ships. If the player on either side of the battle is unfamiliar with the race in question, it can skew the results. Some races (e.g. Mæsron) don't require too much specialized knowledge, but for others it is a bigger factor.
I didn't see that it needed the HET. Never had much trouble keeping my weapons pointed in the right direction.
I think that Tugger would have done much better if he fired the plasmas from much closer in and followed them up with something to keep me occupied while I was dealing with the EPT.
Near the end of Turn 4, I was concerned that I would have to turn south to get a shot, and than remembered that I had the turret and could rotate it.
This allowed me to fire my alpha strike and turn and run from the plasma.
That turret is really really nice.
Sigvirion Tourney cruiser has been submitted. It should soon be playable on SFB Online!!!
Woohoo!!
Got a game in with the Baduvai TC. I didn't keep much of a log, but I was against the Zin. Lost due to misjudging a couple of things (no amount of VRF will help when you mistime the dodge on a missile stack), but we came to a couple of conclusions.
First and foremost is that the ship badly needs more warp power. if it wants to use its heavy weapons, it HAS to use 3 warp each per turn. This is whether you're charging or holding, it's all the same (unlike the Fed). The two AWR already there help, but not nearly enough. Personal thought is that 2 more is actively needed, possibly more. Dropping some Impulse to make room for AWR is possible if the power curve starts getting too high.
Details are that, if holding or charging all three weapons, its current maximum speed without HET is 25. With HET it's only 20, and this is a ship that has to close in order to do its job. Just the nature of the CPA. This also greatly restricts its other much-needed utilities, such as tractors and reinforcement/repair.
The other big this is the seeking weapon defenses. They are really a bit on the light side, even with the enhanced LL side armament. I know it's the nature of the beast when using Lasers, so consider this just a bit of a side note. Could stand to go to 2x TL per side with a third BANK, but not sure how that would affect its offensive crunch.
Thanks in advance for reading and any consideration you may give to this
I agree that the Baduvai is going to be slow when charging or holding the CPA.
Another thing you could do is fire the alpha strike at range 9 with an oblique angle, not charging the offside CPA.
Dump in all of the MD to drain off power to make pursuit more difficult on the following turn
that range 9 shot could potentially do internals
and you just might be able to stay out of range 8.
With a little luck, IE, both CPA hit, you could take out your opponents #1 shield.
If in that situation, you held back one or two medium lasers, you could encourage your opponent to turn off, giving you time to run away.
The Baduvai has some quirks, which Jacob has identified.
It will never be able to charge across the map AND have an HET available while rolling all three CPAs.
On the other hand, on turn 1, it's got the following power split:
39 power, 33 of it warp, and 5 battery power.
9 goes to CPAs, leaving 24 for movement, plus 1 impulse. Or 19+1 for movement and 5 for reserve warp.
And leaving 6 or 11 non warp power for othre purposes - house keeping, tractors, holding specialty shuttles. The Baduvai is both power starved for movement and has power lying around for other things, like tractors, wild weasels and suicide shuttles. This is one of the things that brings it flavor.
While it doesn't match the Fed on peak output, it is slightly better than the Fed at range 6 for average damage. 3 fully armed CPAs will reliably do 24, 33, or 45 damage, and the medium lasers will do 15 more. When combined with 4 MDs soaking off enemy phaser fire, it's pretty nice.
It doesn't get much better at range 3, though. You're relying on the MDs to cut down enemy firepower. You also aren't completely helpless on the next turn - CPA-1s aren't great, but they're better than nothing in a pinch.
And on the follow up turn, you could arm the CPA-3 and not the CPA-2s if necessary. Since, you might not be ready for a follow up volley for 3 turns. The CPA-2s can skip arming that turn.