Archive through April 21, 2011
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Tournament Zone:
Omega, Magellanic, and other TCs:
Archive through April 21, 2011
Quote:As previously noted, I'm a big fan of simply not worrying about the balance that comes from Omega vs Alpha.
And, as previously noted, I couldn't disagree more. The value of Omega tourney ships is drastically reduced if they aren't balanced against Alpha tourney ships. If Omega tourney ships are only balanced against each other, then they are only useful for an Omega tournament, where you would be lucky to get half a dozen players. The neat thing about TCs is that they are generally balanced across the field without regard to historical match-ups. Sure, there are RPS issues, particularly with the more oddball ships, but in general, those issues aren't too severe.
If you balance the Omega TCs against Alpha TCs, you gain a lot. I don't ever expect (or really even want) them to be included in RATs, but more casual and wingnut tourneys will be enriched by allowing them alongside the traditional TCs. TCs are also useful for a variety of other uses outside the tournament, and the bigger the selection, the better. You can use them for quick pickup games, without having to worry about BPV, COs, and imbalance based on historical considerations or munchkin races (WYN, LDR). You can use them for wacky free-for-all scenarios, and be confident that you have reasonable balance. You can use them to introduce other races to people who are only used to Alpha stuff, letting them fly a familiar ship against a new one. And so on.
Now, there are some Omega races that are going to be difficult, if not impossible, to balance. The Sigs, Souldra and Ryn come to mind. But their problems are not really Alpha-Omega issues. They are going to be just as hard to balance against other Omegans. At a certain point, we'll either need to simply exclude them, or, like the Andro, end up with ships that are a bit on the weak side to avoid overpowering their best match-ups.
As for the Koligahr, I don't buy that this one is going to be impossible to balance versus droners. As this battle report indicates, the Kzinti is quite viable against it.
Unfortunately, I don't have access to SFBOL at the moment, and haven't seen the latest design Are you saying the current Koligahr TC has 5 ACs? If so, then the design has gone off the deep end. But a reasonable design should be just fine.
Sure, the ACG will obliterate you if you clump your drones in a big stack. But I don't think it's as bad as a web caster, and Kzintis can do just fine against Tholians. I know good Kzinti players who avoid clumping drones against anyone (unless they get their opponent in just the right position), because clumps of drones are easier to deal with, either through maneuver (a little speed and one good move, and you dodge them all), a WW (clumps don't do as much collateral, and don't keep you under WW restrictions very long), or defensive fire (you can arrange to deal with them all at a time when your weapons aren't being used for other tasks). So it seems to me a good Kzinti can adapt those strategies to deal with the ACG.
You should also consider the following points:
- ACGs take a lot of power. The Koligahr needs a lot of power for heavy weapons; if he has to pour a lot of power into the ACGs, the Kzinti is getting good use out of drones.
- There's only one ACG in each arc (outside the forward and aft centerlines). Two clumps approaching from the same arc could be problematic. Particularly if the Koligahr has lost the facing one to damage.
- ACGs are pretty accurate in close, but not automatic. If the Koligahr is counting on the ACG to hit, and it misses, he is in big trouble. Thus, he must factor this into his plan, possibly reserving phasers and allocating tractor power.
Andy,
I understand that the fans of the Omega ships are quite interesting and enjoyable for their fans. I was happy to play against the ship in a just for fun game. I can also understand the motivation to make the omega ships more balanced so that they can play vs. alpha ships in a just for fun pick up game.
I am about to make a statement of my fuddy-duddyness. Please don't take this as a crticism of the omega ships OR the players. My feelings only reflect on me.
I am glad to hear you don't expect the Omega TC's to be part of rated ace or net kill.
The fact is that I probably don't have the time to learn all the rules and the nuances of the omega ships so I can play at an ace level vs. omega any time soon if ever.
From the point of view of someone returning to the game, I am happy to play just for fun from time to time with someone who is kind enough to teach me the rules.
I would also disagree that the kzinti is "viable" agains the Kohligar. I was flying in total desperation mode.
Analyzing the type of weapons, the Kohligar has all "hit or don't hit" type weapons. Too few of these types of weapons and a few drones are always going to get through. Too many and the drones never get through. It will be really tough to find the right combo.
-David Zimdars
Andy wrote:
>>And, as previously noted, I couldn't disagree more. The value of Omega tourney ships is drastically reduced if they aren't balanced against Alpha tourney ships.>>
Sure, but I simply don't think it is really a viable plan for a lot of those ships. The Kohligar is an incredibly simple ship, in reality. But it is going to be incredibly difficult to balance against Alpha drone and plasma ships. As its weapons are just too good against drones and plasmas. But against Omega ships, it is perfectly reasonable. The Maesron is totally reasonable against Omega ships, but against someone with drones, the TMs are too easily ignored, which is a problem. I don't even want to think about the extra wonky ships.
Balance them against each other. Which is a reasonably sized task, reasonably possible task. Balancing them against Alpha as well makes the reasonably sized task into an insurmountable task, especially given that most of the ships were designed without taking Alpha tech into account. I mean, yeah, in a perfect world, I agree that it would be awesome if all the TCs were balanced with each other. I just don't think it is a realistic goal.
David wrote:
>>The fact is that I probably don't have the time to learn all the rules and the nuances of the omega ships so I can play at an ace level vs. omega any time soon if ever. >>
Which I think is a completely reasonable viewpoint.
I like the Omega stuff a lot, now that I am playing with it after 10 years. I've picked up all the rules, I'm reading all the tech, I like the history. It is fun stuff. But it is also a *lot* of stuff. And I'd imagine that *most* folks who would play in an SFB tournament aren't real familiar with most of the Omega stuff. And dumping another 12+ TCs into the mix, which certainly a fun idea, is also one that will cause a lot of issues/problems.
I think the good, modest, viable plan for the Omega TCs is make a nice, viable, reasonably balanced set of Omega ships to play against Omega ships. Yeah, it means you can only have Omega tournaments, but at least with an all Omega tournament, everyone involved knows what they are getting into. If we can get *that* working, and make that happen for a while, then moving up to trying to balance that against Alpha could be a next level goal.
I have found that it's fairly easy to convince people to play against an Omega TC. Much harder to convince people to play an Omega TC.
Therefore, if I just limited Omega TCs to Omega vs Omega, there would be very few games played.
So.... why not see if it's possible to balance them against alpha.
As for Netkill and other tournaments. Only the Maesron is allowed for probationary netkill at this point. What this means is that before using it in netkill, you have to ask for permission from your opponent. You can't just show up in a Netkill game and ... surprise... I've got a Maesron.
Andy,
The current playtest ship has the following weapons.
1. Three ACs (FA)
2. One AC ( LF+L )
3. One AC ( RF+R )
4. One ACG ( LS )
5. One ACG ( RS )
6. One PM-1 ( FA+L )
7. One PM-1 ( FA+R )
8. One PM-1 ( LS )
9. One PM-1 ( RS )
10. One PM-3 ( LS )
11. One PM-3 ( RS )
Basically, I took the previous TC and reduced it from eight PM-1 to four PM-1 and added a single FA AC.
The crunch power is still well below that of the Fed. Hitting with 4 out of 4 ACs and 3 PM-1, I did 56 damage at range 3. A Fed will very often do more damage than that at that range.
I'd like to get a few more games under my belt with the current build before I call it one way or the other.
The fact that the PM are incredibly deadly to drones and plasmas was mitigated substantially by reducing the number of them considerably.
I was possibly considering upgrading the two PM-3 into PM-1 and possibly moving them into the FA+L and FA+R mounts.
While I have no interest in Omega whatsoever, I must admit that if the goal is for Omega to eventually be balanced against Alpha, it is going to have to be done that way from the beginning. Otherwise, the ships will not be playtested against Alpha food groups and there's a very high change that the Omegas as a whole will be either stronger or weaker than the Alphas, requiring them all to be changed in order to work (which is just not going to be possible).
See, I'm not convinced that balancing Omega vs. Alpha TCs is inherently more difficult than balancing Omega vs. Omega. In some ways, it's much easier. The existing sanctioned TCs are by far the most balanced and playtested ships in the game. As such, they provide excellent reference points.
You could balance the Maesron versus the Koligahr, and have no idea whether either is balanced against the Vari. But if you balance all three versus the Alpha TC field, they should be pretty balanced against each other. In short, balancing a new ship versus a known ship is going to be much easier than balancing two unfamiliar ships.
And really, the difference between Omega tech and AQ tech as a whole, is considerably less than the difference between individual AQ and Omega races. Historically, Kzintis and Gorns didn't fight, and if you match up regular Kzinti and Gorn ships, you'll have balance issues. But the TCs are just fine. OTOH, historically the Maesron and Vari are enemies, but I'm not convinced they are particularly well-suited for fighting each other. Now, Vari vs. Seltorian? There's a good match-up.
I don't see anything inherent about the TM that makes them play differently against Omega ships as opposed to AQ. I don't see how the Koligahr is better against drones than the LDR, Klingon, Hydran, or ATC. In fact, Barry's latest version may have problems against a savvy droner.
Once you give ships TC power curves, TC shields, TC weapon sets and TC tractors, shuttles, etc., you get pretty decent balance. There are only a few gotchas, but for the most part, the different weapon and phaser types don't create too many issues.
See, the problem I see here is twofold:
A) Balancing the Omega ships vs the Alpha ships requires balancing them against twice as many ships, which is twice as much work.
B) Omega ship technology was not designed from the get go to be balanced against Alpha technologies.
I mean, yeah, it isn't *that* big of a leap for most of the ships to get to work against Alpha ships--the Alunda is going to work more or less the same vs Alpha ships as not; the Maesron is going to work more or less the same vs Alpha ships as not, once you accept that the TMs are going to be dealt with incredibly easily. But then certain Omega ships are going to be incredibly difficult to balance vs Alpha. The Kohligar, as noted, is going to be super difficult to balance against drones and plasma. The Chlorophon is the same--against a ship that can run it down, corner it, and mug it, it is going to be killed regularly. Against a ship that needs to launch drones or plasmas at range, it will totally dominate.
If folks want to balance these ships out against Alpha ships, I'm not going to try to stop them. But every time I see a non intuitive, jumping through hoops kind of ad hoc solution for "this Omega ship needs to work vs the Alpha ship, and this is the only way we can get it to work", I just feel as if my viewpoint is supported more :-)
Quote:Balancing the Omega ships vs the Alpha ships requires balancing them against twice as many ships, which is twice as much work.
I don't buy it. If you have a set of ships you know are balanced, the more data points you have for initial comparison, the better off you are. More data points makes it easier to do balancing through numerical analysis, which is hundreds (if not thousands) of times faster than balancing based on playtest results. At a certain point, you need to playtest, but the more balancing you can do before you get to that point, the better.
When flying against known, balanced ships, you drastically reduce results that are skewed by players being unfamiliar with the ship, or with the tactics of the ship, or with tactics not being that well developed. When you put all this on top of different player skill levels, and players just playing better or worse on a given night, and the whims of the dice, at a certain point, your playtest results become meaningless. To get meaningful results, you need to control some variables.
Quote:The Chlorophon is the same--against a ship that can run it down, corner it, and mug it, it is going to be killed regularly. Against a ship that needs to launch drones or plasmas at range, it will totally dominate.
But how is that any different for Alpha opponents versus Omega opponents? I just don't buy that RPS issues of Omega versus Omega are going to be less than RPS issues of Omega versus Alpha.
What I'm seeing is this--Omega ships were designed and balanced out with a fairly specific set of rules assumptions, and when the Omega TCs run into the Alpha TCs where these rules assumptions don't hold up, things run into trouble.
Omega was designed without drones. Which is where a *lot* of the balance issues come from. Yeah, Tachyon Missiles, but those tend to be "here is one missile that takes 12 damage. And maybe a second one over there" rather than Alpha drones which are in piles and chunks of 4 damage. Omega ships tend to either be overly good against drones (Kholigar, Chlorophon) or overly bad (ships with Particle or Quantum phasers. And ships with Tachyon Missiles). And I don't know that there is a solution to this that isn't full of wacky knots (see: the current Kholigar TC). The ACG is a completely reasonable weapon in the Omega universe, but kind of insane when you put it up against drone ships. Spore Casters are pretty much the same.
Plasma is a similar, but not as severe, issue--Microphasers are insane against Plasma. Which isn't a problem in the Omega universe, really. But it is a problem when you have Omega fighting Alpha. Spore Casters are insane vs Plasma, especially when there are 2-3 of them to contend with on the Chlorophon TC. In Omega, certainly in the original 12 empires, the Probr and the Sigvirion are the most plasma reliant and the most hosed by strong plasma defense, but the Probr have a lot to recommend them with the super fast plasma (at least on on a open/big map) that is also extra resistant to phasers and the Sigvirion are extra super wonky, in terms of trying to balance them already.
When you take the very well balanced Alpha TCs that are heavily invested in drones and plasma (like half the field is either drone or plasma dependent), you are going to run into weird issues with the Omega ships due to them being designed in a world where there are no drones and plasma works very differently (and is rarely the be all and end all of a given ship's weapons). So weird things happen. That are going to inevitably be very hard to balance. More so than with Omega vs Omega, where no one is saddled with drones and plasma, for the most part, is a backup weapon.
I think the Trobrin would qualify as a plasma-heavy race. The IBs are backup weapons, at least the way I play them.
Heh. Barry said the exact opposite (i.e. the ITs are just back up to keep folks from overrunning you). Either way, the Trobrin seems like it should do fine vs a Kholigar, for example--yeah, the microphasers will shoot the heck out of the torps, but then they aren't shooting the Trobrin as it beats the crap out of you with IBs and radiation phasers.
Seems like the old argument of whether the ISC has plasma to keep people away while you PPD them to death, or a PPD to make people eat your plasma.
You're one of the biggest plasma-dogs I know, of course they're a big-plasma race to you. :D
The fact that when a ship only mounts one due to size, the non-specialty verssion of the mounts torps would incline one to agree with that assessment.
I do think the bolts have a tendency to make for a more offensive, shorter version of the battle rather than 15+ turn ballet.
At one point I tried a Trobrin TCL with one bolt and heavier torps.
It wasn't viable. The one bolt was too easy to deal with, and the torps didn't provide sufficient over run protection.
Yeah, I think the current Trobrin TC seems pretty solid.
Mike:
Plasma-dog? I guess I'll have to start calling you "Drone-kitty"* from now on, then.
*Maybe not kitty, but some synonym that ends in y... ;)
Troy:
Strong words, but as I remember in the drone vs. plasma battles, I believe I'm well up on you. ;)
Barry/Peter:
What's the current Trobrin TC got on it? My problems with the prior was that it had too much power.
The current one is a 2/3 move cost CW kinda deal with 2x IB (LS/RS), 1x ITH (FP), 2x ITL (LS/RS), 6x RP1 (something like 2xRS, 2xLS, 2x360), 2x (4?) RP3. It has, I think, 8 armor, not a ton of hull, 24 warp (2/3 move), some reasonable total amount of power (32-34).
It seems pretty strong, but not unreasonable.
Dangit. I may have to suck it up and get SFBOL just so I can test it. Trobrin are definitely my favorite Omega empire.
Not sure that Omega is really balanced against Omega. This is part of the reason that getting these TCs balanced has been such a pain.
It's doable... Just tricksy.
After last nights final and Andy's discussion, I might be leaning towards knocking the Alunda back to 10x bio bolts (2xFA/L, 2xFA/R, 2xLS/RF, 2xRS/LF, 2xRH) and 4x plasma whips. I mean, lemme try out the 12xBB/2xPW version a few more times, but that ship can do a lot of damage and is very resistant to internals. I mean, it loses tractor beams as soon as someone looks at it, but otherwise, and with the healing potential, I think it still might be very solid with only 10xBB. It'll need the 4xPW if it goes back to 10xBB for seeking weapon defense (even though the PWs are substandard seeking weapon defense, really).
I'm gonna need to fly the current Alunda vs, like, a Kzinti to see what happens.
Played a test battle of the Kolighar's new version with 6 PM-1,2 PM 3, and 5 AC.
I was flying the Gorn and knew the PM was the death of plasma, but this was my first taste of it. Turn 1 I stayed between 17 and 24 speed, with one env and a rolling delay.
Barry fired a range 9 shot that did next to nothing, terrible dice. I opened with two psuedo S's hoping maybe he would use the PM's on them but mistimed it and had to launch the EPT thus revealing my pseudo. He kicked his Kolighar into overdrive near the end and I decided after scoring decent r 8 phasers to follow with bolts hit one and did internals as he ran from the Enveloping S.
Turn 2 he ran the S Env out to 30 strength fired a few PM-1 rolled no dice and took 22 right off the torp. It hit for 8 and 1 internal.
Turn 3 I found myself empty but on the verge of getting my torps back but turned into the Kohlighar too early and the r0 exchange was really the end of me. I was left with only 24 power, could see I had lost but had 7 ph 1 and 3 Plasma charged.
Turn 4 we only played 3 impulses, tried a bolt on a weakend shield at range 2 and missed and decided I was done.
The PM are just so deadly vs plasma. They auto hit at range 1 for the equivalent of 12 Alpha Octant phaser damage. The combo lets the Kohlighar reduce plasma by a precise predictable amount, and the ship can move fast anyway.
I thought maybe bolting was my best option when he's running away at 30 speed. But the bolts are terrible half damage and bad to hit numbers. And as I leared getting Bold Happy and blowing them all just leaves you completly open to cornering and an abrupt death when the Kohligar gets into its Auto hit zone.
The point defences of the Kohlighar are not to be underestimated. Each and every PM 1 fired will kill a heavy drone with no roll, same with the PM 3's and standard type I drones. Add to that the ACG's ability to take out a big drone stack and its defences seem almost unfair by Alpha octant standards. My inexperience with fighting the Kolighar could have alot to do with my poor performance, but really any fool can see its got the tools to take out seekers at will.
Next time I think ill try a Kzin vs it. I predict it will eat drones up no problem, my hope is that the disr which are more accurate at longer range than the AC and much faster fireing will help some. I bet not a single drone hits and sooner or later the small map kills me.
Warning Gorn Captains Avoid The Planet Kolighar At All Costs, Save Your Plasmas, Save Your Ship for Killing Romulans 
BaldnForty ( Koligahr ) defeats GaiusFrackingBaltar ( Gorn ) in 4 turns
This was played with the following build of Koligahr.
3xAC (FA)
1xAC (LF+L)
1xAC (RF+R)
1xPM-1 (FA+L)
1xPM-1 (FA+R)
2xPM-1 (LS)
2xPM-1 (RS)
1xPM-3 (LS)
1xPM-3 (RS)
1xACG (LS) 4 point cap
1xACG (RS) 4 point cap
This ship used the standard rule micro phasers damaging plasma 1/1
Turn 1
I was figuring on not being able to achieve range 6 this turn, so I left all the AC at single shots so that I could get the range 10 shot.
Gorn plotted 1-3=15,4-21=17,22-32=24
Kol plotted 1-5=17,6-16=24,17-24=17,25-32=30
Gorn started flying direction D and Kol in direction A, about two impulses in I decided to turn to F to try to get him in my centerline.
After satisfying my turn mode, I swung back to direction A.
On 1.16 Gorn fired both plasma S. They turned out to both be fakes and they were fired at fairly long range.
I continued to close and on 1.21 having achieved range nine, I opened up with all five AC using single shots. Hit number at that range is pitiful 1-3 and I missed with four of them. The Gorn chose to take the damage on his #1 which came back later to haunt him.
Any case from range nine, I turned off in direction B and started to run out the plasmas. The Gorn turned in direction C to pursue.
Impulse 1.32, the Gorn launched an EPT and fired 4 P1, the other S as a bolt and one of the Fs as a bolt. Range was six.
The F missed, but the S hit and his phasers were deadly. I ended up taking 27 damage, of which I blocked 3 with GR and one with a battery leaving a one point rear shield.
Turn 2
Kol plotted 1-13=30,14-32=17
Gorn plotted 1-3=23,4-13=17,14-25=12,26-32=24
I charged all three of the AC (FA) with standard loads.
I was figuring to run out the EPT and than turn back towards him to purse since he was all out of plasma. But, I wasn't paying attention and let him slip onto my one point #4 shield where on 2.2 he fired two P1s and bolted the other plasma F.
His phasers were hot again and the bolt hit doing 13 total damage. Ended up taking five internals after bricking which took out an AC and one warp.
I didn't give that chance again, and turned in direction B to face him with a fresh shield.
Impulse 2.8 he fired four more P1s but on a fresh shield.
Any case, on impulse 2.18, I had miscalculated and let the EPT S catch me while still at range 20 for 30 total points of damage. I used all facing phasers, three PM-1 and a PM-3 to reduce it by 22 points but it still hit for eight. This did one in hitting the LS PM-3.
At this point I turned towards the Gorn and chased him across the board.
Turn 3
Gorn plotted: 1-3=17,4-16=24,17-26=17,27-32=24
Kol plotted: 1-17=24,18-32=17
This turn I recharged the phasers and batteries and held the ACs. I also brought one of the FA ACs up to a double charge. Also, started repairing the damaged PM-3 and the damaged AC.
I was headed in direction E and so was the Gorn as I chased across the board. However, the Gorn eventually started to get near the south edge of the board. So he turned to direction F. I also turned in direction F figuring I'd cut him off at the western edge of the board. At a later point he turned to direction A. On 3.26 he announced a speed change to 24. On 3.27 I announced my acceleration to speed 30 on batteries. On 3.28 he turned in direction B and I turned in to direction F.
On 3.30 at range two centerline to centerline, I fired both ACG at 4 power level. Both of them hit doing 16 damage total. He took eight points each on the #3 and #5 shields.
On 3.31 we had the overrun... I had 2 standards and 1 ol loaded up, but than I checked the rules and discovered lo and behold that AC can fire standards at range 0 and with no feedback. So, rather than OL a second AC, I loaded a fourth AC on batteries.
My fire at range 0 was 3 AC standards, 1 AC OL, 6 PM-1, and 1 PM-3. Total damage of 76 with 2 feedback... Nice...
He fired 6 P1 and 2 P3 taking down my front shield and doing one internal.
I did 50 in...
He also launched 2 SS shuttles at range 0, but I moved out of the hex the following impulse, and they were headed in direction B while I was headed in E.
Turn 4
We both plotted speed 0. On impulse 3 he did a warp tac and bolted an F. It missed and he conceded.
While I didn't do much firing of PM versus plasma, he fired almost all of his plasma as bolts. Also, he made the mistake of allowing me to get the range 0 overrun.