Archive through April 24, 2011
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Tournament Zone:
Omega, Magellanic, and other TCs:
Archive through April 24, 2011
Im just waiting for the gattling version of the micro phaser.
I know at some ranges Alpha Octant ships weapons auto hit, and do fixed damage in many cases.
But with the Alpha phasers the damage varies and includes values for damage at range 1 that are not perfect auto kills on standard and heavy drones. But in Omega you have both radiation phasers and Micro phasers as diceless weapons. Probably others as well, while I have the Omega MRB, ive been having so much fun blowing Alpha ships up ive just not gotten into it as I would like.
There is alot of odd new technology there, I would hope that both can and will be balanced to work together at least in Tournament games. Campaign would be lovely also but probably a much bigger challange, many Omega races are not filled out even as well as a minor Alpha race is. Not enough to have much of a campaign, I hope work goes on in fleshing out the unknowns in Omega and the LMC in terms of both history and ships.
I just think there is a real issue at range 1 with micro phasers, the radiation phasers while diceless do not pack this kind of punch, and the Trobrin is not laying waste to all seeking weapons. You can get weapons to hit with work and patience, I think that really should be a bad sign when the ship seems almost untouchable with seeking weapons and some races rely on them that the ships or weapon is not working right.
Add even a slim chance that the PM 1 misses its AK on a heavy drone and the PM-3 its AK on the type I drones. And is there really any reason why they are damaging at 1:1 on plasma, I mean historically in Omega. Do they face a seeking weapon that makes this necessary. The ACG is still going to make them nearly impossible to hit with drones in numbers anyway your going to have to spread em out.
With 6 PM 1 and 2 PM 3 it could take down 44 pts of plasma. Thats the equivalent of 88 Alpha phaser damage. I wonder whats the average damage at range 1 for alpha ph 1's, im pretty sure nothing even a hydran with stingers attending can do that much average phaser damage at range 1. But for the Kohligar there is no average, there is just output and high by alpha standards.
I wish some of these new weapons had a bottom end of the chart, isn't some randomness to the damage is a good thing. I like the variety of phaser like weapons that have been created, I just think some of the weapon charts maybe were not balanced against the rest of the published SFU.
If it were sanctioned it would be really well off vs so many races ships, you would want to completly avoid the seeking races or take this ship. Since its not used in the big tournaments I doubt many know how strong it can be. Neither the ACG or the AC it carries seem that much of a problem. But when added to the Microphaser issue its a big problem. Its tailor made to take out drones, when it doesn't even live in drone country.
When your in your ready room and they announce a Kohlighar on sensors save yourself tons of trouble go with the shot of altarian brandy and the phaser pistol to the head way out. Wait if your fed you just might jackpot on the bugger at range 8 where the thing is managable.
I say its a no win Koligharu Maru scenario for Kzin, WYN Aux, all the plasma races and Orion builds. And a struggle for the rest. Anything with drones they will just eat a fraction of the things power, without a mistake none will hit.
I hope ive not offended any Kolighar lovers too badly, just wanted to vent my frustration. I could have drawn it out much longer by not turning in and im far far from being good. But to see it so effortlessly chomp and enveloping S down to chump change after running it half way out I wonder would 12 turns of this been anything but a nightmare. Its got me thinking how do you beat that with plasma, and im coming up with not a single usefull idea.
My thoughts are
Bolt, but thats stupid suicide even at range 5.
EPT one a turn till he corners you and does the fixed damage on overun and score hopefully a handfull of hits with phasers, but it makes me wonder just how close can you get before its AK includes your ship. The Fed can be a bit like this with exceptional dice, but thats rare and has been part of the game since the early days.
I don't understand why a weapon cant be tweeked a bit, either in the rule or the weapon chart itself.
I just wonder if the concept of the microphaser itself isn't working for tournament games, I guess more or less PM can be tried, but given the fact that damage perfectly coincides with AK on both drone sizes and the ACG is a natural big stack killer how can it be fixed simply by number of weapons being too high or low.
Would the Far East of the SFU fall apart completly if in tournaments PM did 1 less at each level of power on a roll of 6 or 5 and 6. Same could be used for Radiation phasers. I don't know thats just a hair brained idea that would put the dice back into the weapon and give it the bottom end it needs.
Damage would still be high and near maxumum outpot, which seems to be what the designer was aiming for at close range. But would add back some element of chance to it. Just the faint hope that one may slip in and hit. It would do little to help the plasma races I think.
With the plasma its the ratio issue on damage that I think is a problem.
I want to play against the thing more, it needs to be able to be hurt by plamsa and heavy drone using TC's. I want to see all those bubbles pop so bad. Thank you agian Barry for the game and the quest for Kolighar blood you've put me on.
Thanks to all with the patience to read a mad Gorn's Captain's ramblings about Omega PM being the devils phasers. 
I do appreciae the vast variety of products and new races ADB has produced since my early period with the game in the 90's. Great work guys, and SFBOL is bliss what a play aid it is.
But the Vudar and now Kolighar are definatly both on my I wanna kill and never play list. I like nearly every other race but playing nutty EW tricks, and phasers with no dice and wicked damage just seems like a cheap thrill to me. Ill ride the funner rides in the SFU amusement park, thank you for making a few races I delight in playing.
Well definatly isn't the place for talk of the evil Vudar.
The Koligahr is very energy hungry on turns when it is loading things. I think the best option for a Gorn is, really, to anchor the beast. Launch a couple pseudos or an enveloper, chase it into a corner, tractor it and mug it. If if fires all if its phasers at plasma, it isn't shooting you.
I mean, tough anyway, but I think that is clearly the way to go.
>>I don't understand why a weapon cant be tweeked a bit, either in the rule or the weapon chart itself. >>
The Powers that Be don't want to tweak/change rules. So we got to work around them.
Josh also wrote:
>>But the Vudar and now Kolighar are definatly both on my I wanna kill and never play list. I like nearly every other race but playing nutty EW tricks, and phasers with no dice and wicked damage just seems like a cheap thrill to me. Ill ride the funner rides in the SFU amusement park, thank you for making a few races I delight in playing. >>
Well, as an aside, the big issue with the Vudar is the IPG. No one has decided what to do with the EW effect, well, ever. The "official" version of the ship can't produce EW (due to the basic tournament rules not allowing ships to generate EW). In which case, the Vudar is a reasonably effective Fed like ship with improved drone defenses. We tried it a few times with the full IPG EW rules, and it was completely ridiculous (last time I tried that, I anchored it, hit it with 70 points of plasma, but due to the IPG EW, it actually only took, like, 25 damage...). There is a probably a middle ground for the ship, where it can generate some amount of EW for some amount of time (i.e. it can use the IPG, but never for more than a 1 point shift or something), but it has yet to have been settled upon.
barry (ZIN) over bakija (ALU) [12xBB/2xPW]
Just a quick fun game that went bad for the Alunda:
T1: I move 16/31 for 22 moves, put 10 power in my capacitor, hold an ARF, and hold a weasel. Barry moves 14/26 (less than 20 moves) and has 4xOL disruptors. He launches his SP early, which breaks open with 3 medium and 2 fast drones. I launch a couple of whipcrack torps at the front fast ones. We close in. My torps hit the drones, kill one, the other is a type IV, so I kill that one an impulse or two later with a .5 power BB. We get to R6 or so, and it becomes apparent that I'm not going to get any close without giving him my #1 shield and then having to deal with a lot of drones, so I shoot him with 4x 4 point bolts and 5x 1 point bolts. I roll cruddy, do 29 damage to his #2, and see a bit of reinforcement which keeps his shield at a couple boxes. I turn off and shoot him with my 2 rear BBs as 2 pointers, again suck it up, hit with 1, do 4 damage, see a bit more reinforcement and his shield holds at a box. He turns in and follows me. Impulse 31, he shoots my #3 with 4xOL at R6, hits with all of them, and I keep the shield up with my last battery. Impulse 32 he launches a couple more fast drones and he fires his 4xP1 at R6, rolls, like, 1, 1, 2, 5 and does a dozen in, hitting a BB, a power, and hull. We end at R6.
T2: I consider stopping, but figure that will turn out badly. I go 27/20/14, hold my ARF, start a second weasel, and put 6 or so power in my capacitor. Barry moves 16/20 with a few standard disruptors and rearms stuff. I turn my down shield away from him and run, he follows. I kill his 5 drones on the map with some bio bolts as I run away. He shoots my #4 with an OL and 2 standards when it looks like I'm getting out to R9, hitting with the 2 standards. I run into the corner, he follows me. Impulse 32 we are at about 6 hexes again, and Barry launches 4x medium drones. I dump 5 power from one of my batteries into my capacitor to have some extra power the next turn and fixed 6x F hull boxes.
T3: I consider a speedy HET/decel attack, and then remember that without reserve warp, decelling will get me killed. So I plot speed 4/14/9, plot a HET, hold my ARF and 2 weasels, put a couple in tractor, and dump as much power as I can in my capacitor. Barry plots speed 29/14/9 with 4 overloads. It becomes apparent that I should have stopped (or moved 9/4/14) when he is going so fast, as he is going to get on my down #3 before I can turn. I weasel on impulse 1 for the shift and the drones on the map. Barry charges, gets on my down #3 on impulse 7 at R2 and blasts me with 4xOL, 4xP1, 4xP3. He hits with 2 of the OL, rolls ok on the phasers, and I take 38 in. I lose a couple BBs, a plasma whip, and most of my fluff. My batteries are all killed, but as I saw the writing on the wall, I dumped my last 5 battery power into my capacitor before he got there. The drones kill the weasel, I put my AFC back up. Barry slows down to 14, I speed up to 14, and I HET at him. He launches 4 drones, we both launch shuttles all over the place. I ARF him at R3 to pull him a hex closer, and when he is at R2, I blast him with 4x heavy BB and 3x 1 pointers. Again, I roll iffy, miss with one of the heavies, and do 24 in through his #5, killing all the weapons I can and some power, but still not enough. The rest of the turn is me killing 2 drones, tractoring 1, eating a type 1 on my #4, him launching a SS at one of my shuttles, his shuttles shooting up my shields, and my one shutting doing 4 internals through his 1 box #2. We end the turn at about 4 hexes, me behind him.
At this point, I surrender as I had to go watch a movie with my wife :-)
Well, that, and I was totally behind. I coulda made of fight of it for a while more, but at that point, my rear 3 shields were down or mostly down, he still had 3 drone racks and fewer internals than me, and I was down, like, 11 power and all of my batteries.
My dice blew, and Barry's were fantastic, which didn't help--if I got a bit luckier with my heavy bolts, I could have been doing ok (an extra 20 or so in would have made a lot of difference at that point), but the game has dice, and you roll them.
Unsurprisingly, the Alunda has trouble with drones. Whipcrack torps at long range vs early drones are ok. Bio bolts are ok if you know what kind of drones you are shooting at, but using them to shoot drones means you aren't shooting your opponent. That the Alunda loses tractors when you look at it funny only makes the situation worse. I don't think the the game is impossible, but I don't think this version of the Alunda is remotely too good against a drone ship.
There were a couple of thoughts/comments/ideas/etc I wanted to add, if it's not too much trouble.
*Has anyone tried any of the current crop of Omega or LMC TCs against the Andromedan Krait?
It would be very interesting to hear how they fare against the tournament version of their common historical foe.
*So far as selecting which TCs to work on, or which way to present them to others for playtest, there were a few thoughts I had from my experience (such as it is) with the FC Omega project that I thought might be relevant.
For one, I am not overly wedded to the numerical list of empires as shown in the likes of the Omega Master Rulebook. Rather than simply work on empires in the strict manner they are listed in SFB, I made a point of selecting powers based on how I felt they would best work together thematically.
The first five empires I went with were Mæsron, Trobrin, Probr, Iridani and FRA; the Trobrin and Probr cover the "western" flank of the Mæsron Alliance the way the Klingons and Kzintis do for the Federation in Klingon Border, while I wanted both the FRA and Iridani to jump the queue (the Aurorans because they act as a good "bridge" from an Alpha perspective, and the Iridani because they are a relatively straightforward conversion that can go anywhere, and make a good historical foe for the Andromedans from War and Peace). If I get the project far enough, the second wave of empires would then go "east" (a la Romulan Border), and introduce the Koligahr and Vari, plus the odd minor power or two (I'd want the Bolosco and Qixa, since their trading ships can pop up across the Octant too).
Looking further ahead, should I ever get around to, say, the Loriyill, I would choose to line them up with the Souldra and Singers, since the three have a closely interconnected history. Similarly, I'd group the Drex together with the Ymatrians and Worb, the Alunda with the Hivers and Branthodons, and so forth.
The point I would make here is that, rather than offering Omega TCs one at a time, or dumping them on people all at once, I'd much sooner suggest grouping them into batches of 3-5; themed, if possible, on well-matched sets of historical rivals, or perhaps with groups that are more or less equally easy/hard to get a grip on the rules for.
That might be a good middle ground, in terms of offering some of the historical flavour of the Omega Octant, while keeping things from going overboard.
*For the Iridani, I had mentioned before that I think the Clipper is a good basis for adaptation; indeed, the base hull already has 32 warp engine boxes, so can easily have two of those trimmed away from its C Warp entry.
So far as modifying the ship for tourney use goes, one thought I had was to, if at all possible, keep most of the additional edits required on the module itself, rather than on the base hull. If a simple Weapons Module is inadequate, perhaps a tournament-specific "Dueling Module" could be tailored to fit?
Might be a more characterful way of making that particular empire's TC work.
*As (also) noted before, the BC would be a good option as the basis for an FRA tourney cruiser; while it could be interesting to give it the option of a TM refit (perhaps with type-A racks instead of type-B, so the cost is unchanged?) the SRCs themselves would give the ship something unique on the tabletop.
I wonder, though; should it have access to Shuttle Bombs?
Also, could an alternate FRA tourney ship be created out of the Throne of Ozymondas, or is the CR hull too small to be viable?
*We were talking about the Ryn Enclave before, and I made a bit of an error; I thought the ships only had BPVs listed for in-nebula operation. Of course, not only is there a rule designating the out-of-nebula BPV discount, the SSDs themselves explicitly show the "outside neb" cost for each ship.
That said, I noted that for the historical Ryn CC, the outside-neb cost is 187! (In its home space, the ships costs 220 BPV; in the same ballpark as the ISC command cruiser.)
I would argue that even if kept away from the Rynish transporter network (which, in a tourney environment, I feel it really should be), that ship would still be a dangerous opponent in open space.
*Similarly, for the Qixa, I would perhaps suggest using the Trading Cruiser as the basis for their TC, and to stick with the Phaser-W, gauss cannon and "brick" ultrawarp missiless it would use in open space; the likes of energy spark rings and cloud-compatible UWM warheads should stay back in their home space.
(If that means the resultant ship would be tantamount to a giant phaser boat, so be it.)
*Has anyone thought of how tournament cruisers for the four playtest Triangulum Galaxy empires might work out?
Of those, the most interesting for me personally would be a Helgardian TCA, derived from the Protector heavy cruiser; though whether or not their tourney ship (or that of the Imperium) should have access to Battle Armor upgrades for their boarding parties could be an interesting question.
Speaking of special boarding rules, imagine an Arachnid TCA with those Worlds of Unions assimilation rules from Module E2...
*One final thought for now; would the M81 Pirate Raider from Captain's Log #40 be an interesting template for a future tourney ship, or is it too small to get by? (Would it be better to wait and see if the High Pirate Bands, or their Nebuline suppliers, are shown to use some bigger hulls instead?)
Peter,
Since over half the ships in Tournament play these days carry significant amounts of drones, I would think that the Alunda TC should be balanced against those types of ships first and foremost.
Having said that, your dice rolling basically sucked in that battle. Had your dice been average and my dice been average, the game would have gone completely differently. By rights, you should have done an additional 10 to 14 points of damage on that first volley. And I should have done a lot less.
Keep in mind that the ARF in my opinion is one of the nicer auxiliary systems in the game.
It can make one of the nastier tactics of seeking weapon races, the anchor, much harder to achieve.
And it also, makes it much easier for the Alunda to control a very important factor in the game, the range. It also, provides the Alunda with slightly more control over which shield is facing.
Keep in mind, that an ARF fired on impulse 32 of the previous turn, allows the Alunda to do something no other race can do. Move your opponent on impulse 1 of the current turn. Your could potentially push an opponent off of one of your down shields before his weapons can cycle and hit you. That is nice.
Yes, drones are difficult for the Alunda to deal with. In some ways they are very difficult to deal with, but in others not so bad. Yes, the plasma whips do provide some anti-drone capability right off the bat. While, the bio bolts are not perfect, they do have one major plus. The hit number and capability are identical at ranges one and two.
The 1/2 point of power level of the bio bolt is auto hit at ranges one and two, but it only does three points of damage. Therefore, your most likely only going to use it to finish off a damaged drone.
The one point of power level of the bio bolt is very interesting versus drones. It does four points of damage at ranges one and two, but with a very slight chance of missing. But since, it can be fired at range two, you usually have the opportunity to fire, evaluate, and fire again if necessary.
If for some reason, you don't think, you'll get a second shot opportunity with a shot at range two, you can fire at up to range four, with a better than 90% chance of hitting and therefore killing a type I drone. And, if the drones are at range seven at the end of the turn, you can still fire a power level one shot with a better than 80% chance of damaging a drone. The range seven shot won't kill a drone, but if it hits, that drone is a guaranteed autokill for a 1/2 point power level shot at range two, irrespective of whether it's a type I or a type IV.
What this all means, is the Alunda, should think outside of the box of trying to kill drones at the last possible instant at range one. Yes, drone defense is going to tie up a lot of your offensive weapons. But isn't that what drones are there for?
Think of the plasma whips / whip crack torps as the equivalent of phaser 3s in terms of drone defense, but they have the advantage of being offensively useful against ships without drones.
Next time, how about I take the Alunda and you take the Kzinti?
Gary wrote:
>>*Has anyone tried any of the current crop of Omega or LMC TCs against the Andromedan Krait?>>
Yes. The Krait is very underbalanced intentionally at this point. It is best not to worry about the Krait.
>>For one, I am not overly wedded to the numerical list of empires as shown in the likes of the Omega Master Rulebook. Rather than simply work on empires in the strict manner they are listed in SFB, I made a point of selecting powers based on how I felt they would best work together thematically.>>
Barry et. al. just made a bunch of Omega TCs, of which there are most empires represented, and posted them on SFBOL. The ones that are being worked on at this point are simply the ones that people like messing around with. I like the Alunda, so I play the Alunda a lot, and so there is a lot of Alunda discussion. Barry likes the Maesron and the Koligahr, so there is a lot of discussion about them. We just had a tournament that ended with a match between the Alunda and the Probr, so some Probr discussion. There is no formal procedure here.
>>The point I would make here is that, rather than offering Omega TCs one at a time, or dumping them on people all at once, I'd much sooner suggest grouping them into batches of 3-5; themed, if possible, on well-matched sets of historical rivals, or perhaps with groups that are more or less equally easy/hard to get a grip on the rules for.>>
The problem with that is that isn't really how tournament games work. People just play ships vs ships as it fits their fancy. And all the ships, in theory, should be balanced vs all the other ships. Which is a rough undertaking, but at least, in theory, that is the goal.
Barry wrote:
>>Since over half the ships in Tournament play these days carry significant amounts of drones, I would think that the Alunda TC should be balanced against those types of ships first and foremost.>>
Well, once again, I suspect that if we push the Alunda into being perfectly balanced against, say, a Kzinti, it will be wildly over effective vs non drone using ships. Currently, it seems like the Alunda is fighting an uphill battle vs drone ships, but it isn't an insurmountable fight in its current configuration (and I suspect it would be about the same with the 10xBB/4xPW version which would be less overwhelming to non drone ships, I suspect). I think it is also still slightly over effective vs non drone ships. I'm unconvinced that there is necessarily a reasonable compromise for making it not disadvantaged vs drones and not overwhelming vs DF.
>>What this all means, is the Alunda, should think outside of the box of trying to kill drones at the last possible instant at range one. Yes, drone defense is going to tie up a lot of your offensive weapons. But isn't that what drones are there for? >>
Oh, sure--the issue is not not being able to kill the drones. I only got hit by 1 drone, and that was a completely intentional choice (i.e. I counted drones, counted defenses, and figured I could eat one on a shield to shoot an extra gun at you). It is that they tie up a lot of offensive weapons that the Alunda needs to be shooting you with. The Kzinti-Alunda is very similar to the Kzinti-Fed; they have the same number of guns (14 total), they hit hard, and the drones tend to tie up way too much firepower for the non Kzinti to make a good game of it (most folks consider the Kzinti-Fed one of the most one sided games in the tournament. I don't think it is as bad as most other folks do for the Fed. But it is still pretty bad.)
>>Think of the plasma whips / whip crack torps as the equivalent of phaser 3s in terms of drone defense, but they have the advantage of being offensively useful against ships without drones.>>
Sure. But still, the 32 impulse delay is a problem for drone defense. Even if you launch WTs early to get the drones. They aren't horrible for drone defense, but they are less optimal for drone defense than, say, even P3s. I mean, yeah, they auto kill a type I at R1, which P3s don't, and can kill drones at R15, but that delay is rough when someone is lobbing 8 drones over 8 impulses at you.
>>Next time, how about I take the Alunda and you take the Kzinti?>>
If you want. As noted, I don't think that the Alunda is completely hosed vs drone ships. I just was confirming that it does seem disadvantaged vs drones for a multitude of reasons. Which is fine, as a lot of ships are disadvantaged vs drones. As you point out, if I had rolled up and you had rolled down in that game, I probably would have been fine.
Peter:
The intent of such groupings was not to affect the online play going on now, but to consider when printing a set or two of them in order to introduce them to new players (or at least new opponents) going forward.
So, if someone brought a printed copy of the Alunda, it could be shown in an historical context; i.e. alongside Hiver and Branthodon TCs.
(Which would only work if/when we actually get a working dragonship TC, of course...)
Gary wrote:
>>The intent of such groupings was not to affect the online play going on now, but to consider when printing a set or two of them in order to introduce them to new players (or at least new opponents) going forward.>>
Oh, heh. Well, honestly, I don't see them getting printed anytime soon. And if they were, I'd imagine that there would just be a big pile of them all at once (i.e. a "Here is Omega TCs!" book that had 18 or so SSDs and notes).
>>So, if someone brought a printed copy of the Alunda, it could be shown in an historical context; i.e. alongside Hiver and Branthodon TCs.>>
Well, one of the problems with this is that I'm not really convinced that the historical Omega enemies are particularly balanced against each other (i.e. I don't think the Omega designers put any particular effort into making sure that neighbors in Omega were perfectly matched to fight)--for example, the main enemies of the Alunda are the Hivers, in an Omega historical sense. But in a BPV based/ship to ship fight between the Alunda and the Hivers, the Alunda will generally just own the Hivers (in, like, a strategic "let's have a war" sense, the Hivers might do just fine against the Alunda due to economic factors and ship building speeds and whatever, but these don't have any impact on tournament SFB). So tying the tournament game into the game history is, sadly, unlikely to work that well.
>>(Which would only work if/when we actually get a working dragonship TC, of course...)>>
Well, that and a working Hiver ship--both of which are difficult to pull off in a single ship duel sense.
Off the top of my head, I think the Omega TCs that are close to balanced and have seen a lot of play are:
-Maesron
-Alunda
-Probr
-Vari
-Trobrin
-Koligahr (which has some dicey balance issues, but we might be getting somewhere)
-Chlorophon
Of the basic set empires not listed above:
-The Drex have a big problem in the CPU and EW shifts that tend to make them ridiculously overpowered. And the enveloping HCL is also ridiculously overpowered. And no compromise has been settled upon (i.e. do you make a small, undergunned Drex and let them have the -1 to hit shift or do you take away the -1 to his shift and give them a regular ship).
-The Hivers suffer from their basic background being not real viable in a single ship duel--a Hiver CA with 4xBarbs is about equivalent to a standard CA, BPV wise, but will generally get eaten by a standard CA in a one and one fight. You could just make a Hiver SC3 cruiser type ship (i.e. like the DN), which is certainly a solid ship, but then it isn't really a Hiver.
-The Sigvirion are fundementally flawed on a closed map in such a way that there probably isn't a good way to make them work.
-The Loryill seem pretty straight forward. I just don't think that anyone has put much effort into them.
Of the further expansion empires, the FRA seems very straight forward if not particularly exciting and most of the rest of them are all kind of problematic and wazoo for trying to make into TCs (a Qixa TC? How do you make the Ryn work? The Souldra seem very problematic on a lot of levels, etc.)
I did post a couple of thoughts on the Qixa, and a few others, in one of my recent posts...
I'm not talking about if a formal product is ever put together; I mean that, when taking these ships out for further playtesting, it might be an idea for people printing them out themselves to batch them into more manageable sub-sets.
For the Hivers, of the CA is not viable, and you don't want to go to the DN, the BC could be an option. Indeed, you could beef it up into a BCH, and make it MC 3/4; that would put it in the same size category as the Loriyill Firecruiser. It wouldn't be the first new-ish hull type to appear here.
I don't particularly agree with the idea of the FRA being boring; they are the only SRC users we have, for one. Plus, if you want to get an Alpha player to actually try an Omega ship, rather than simply fight one, the Auroran would be the easiest to offer, since the short-range cannons (and the light photons) would be the only new aspects they'd need to get a handle on.
Unless they are allowed take Shuttle Bombs, that is.
And for the Branthodons, they have a pretty dangerous Adult Command Dragonship (BPV 215) which could be a basis for consideration. (As much as the Alunda draw attention now, something tells me that the cyborg clone space dragon might be even more of an attention-grabber...)
Gary wrote:
>>I did post a couple of ideas for the Qixa, and a couple of others, a few posts up...>>
The Qixa are all about fighting in that nebula, and all their guns are based on working in that nebula. I'm hard pressed to see how they would be interesting as a tournament cruiser without the nebula to work with. I mean, yeah, I guess they could have a ship with phasers and not Spark Rings or whatever, but then they aren't really so much of an interesting addition to the tournament environment as just an inclusion for the sake of saying they are included. One of the things that are important to keep in mind for tournament ships is that, generally speaking, they need to offer something new and exciting to the environment for people to get behind it. Like, over the years, there have been lots and lots of suggestions to make variant ships for empires that already have good ships (i.e. all HB Hydran, an ISC CM, a Gorn CM, etc.), and generally speaking, people tend not to be particularly interested in slight variation for variation's sake. Unless a ship has something particularly interesting to offer, folks tend to not be particularly interested in it.
>>I'm not talking about if a formal product is ever put together; I mean that, when taking these ships out for further playtesting, it might be an idea for people printing them out themselves to batch them into more manageable sub-sets.>>
Oh, ok. I'm pretty sure that all the Omega TC playtesting that is happening is happening on SFBOL, though.
>>For the Hivers, of the CA is not viable, and you don't want to go to the DN, the BC could be an option. Indeed, you could beef it up into a BCH, and make it MC 3/4; that would put it in the same size category as the Loriyill Firecruiser. It wouldn't be the first new-ish hull type to appear here.>>
Sure, but without the fighters, the Hivers are just a sub-standard disruptor empire with no secondary weapon (and all disruptor empires have secondary weapon systems). It would take a lot of fiddling to get a Hiver ship that gets to rely on fighters and be viable, I'd imagine. I'd like to see a Hiver that has 3 or 4 fighters on it, as that would be interesting. But hard to pull off--the Hydran has the two Stingers, but often, the total effect of the 2 stingers on the game is that the Hydran's opponent shoots them with 2xP1 each and kills them, end of transaction. The Hivers would need to be able to get more mileage out of fighters than that.
>>I don't particularly agree with the idea of the FRA being boring; they are the only SRC users we have, for one. Plus, if you want to get an Alpha player to actually try an Omega ship, rather than simply fight one, the Auroran would be the easiest to offer, since the shirt-range cannons (and the light photons) would be the only new aspects they'd need to get a handle on.>>
I suppose. I mean, the FRA aren't bad or anything, but they are basically just slightly tweaked Feds. Although being able to have a ship with mini photons to help with the "all or nothing" aspect of photons certainly has something to recommend it.
>>Unless they are allowed take Shuttle Bombs, that is.>>
I can't imagine why if you were making an FRA TC you wouldn't give it shuttle bombs. It is one of the things they have going for them.
>>And for the Branthodons, they have a pretty dangerous Adult Command Dragonship (BPV 215) which could be a basis for consideration. (Much as the Alunda draw attention now, something tells me that the cyborg clone space dragon might be even more of an attention-grabber...)>>
I don't know that the Alunda specifically draw attention. I mean, I like them for their funny background, and I post a lot, but that is just 'cause I like posting a lot. But yeah, the Branthodon certainly could be viable, but they have a lot of fiddly rules that would need taking into account to make them work, I'd imagine.
Well, for going to major events, I could imagine a couple of people printing a few of the tourney SSDs out, and trying to arrange games with them.
While SFBOL is an asset, it's another story when you can actually play against someone face-to-face.
(As I hope people will do with some of the playtest Omega ships for FC, but how and ever...)
I don't think the Qixa (or Ryn) should assume the presence of their home space; no-one else gets that kind of benefit. If you take a WYN or Maghadim ship, you don't assume the other guy has just emerged from the radiation shell.
If that means the Qixa ship is more boring, since it would only have "brick" warheads, gauss cannons and wide-angle phasers to use, that might have to be as good as they can get.
To be honest, I'm not sure if you're going to be able to make every Omega empire all that viable in a tourney format; if you can do well by the majority of them, that might be a price you'd have to pay.
I didn't say anything about not giving a Hiver BC or BCH access to Barbs; they could still take a brace, or more if needs be, so long as the composite unit is enough to get by.
By the way, there is one thing to consider; according to (OR10.02), there are historical Hives that retained the use of certain Mæsron and Vari weapons, like tachyon guns and particle phasers. Maybe a tourney Hiver ship could incorporate some of those systems, in order to give it more options?
On the Qixa: Even without the nebula, the Qixa have a lot of potential for interesting dynamics. The spark ring is not the greatest weapon outside the nebula, but still quite viable. It is quite comparable to a disruptor in terms of energy/damage output, except that it is a 2-turn weapon. The UWMs are FUN. And then there's the phaser-1 shuttles. (Gauss cannon, actually, but same thing.) While the existing Qixa ships tend to be a bit weak outside the nebula (and very scary inside it) I don't think it would be too hard to make a balanced Qixa TC. Much easier than many races.
On the Hivers: I don't see the problem with making a good TC here. A souped up BC with Barb-2s should have no trouble competing. I disagree that the Sting Torpedo is a "sub-standard disruptor", it is every bit as good, if not better. It is inferior at range 9+ (which hardly matters in the tourney), but at range 0-4 you get the double OL. They can also be held, even OLs. Their secondary weapon is the Barbs. Now, a Barb is not as good (especially for the BPV) as a Stinger-II, but it does have some interesting options. With 3 or 4 of them, they will be a significant factor, and provide a unique dynamic.
On the FRA: The FRA BC should be a good basis for a TC. Not super exciting, but there are some important differences with the Alpha Feds. The split arcs and the light photons create a different dynamic. As far as SRCs versus TMs, I think SRCs would be preferable for racial flavor reasons; however, two SRCs would create nasty RPS issues with drone users. Maybe give it one SRC and two TM racks (with basic TMs), but then it would have to have a weaker phaser suite to balance out. It should have a couple shuttle bombs replacing a shuttle; this is no big deal.
On the Drex: I would like to see them keep the -1 for racial flavor, even if that means more challenge to creating balance. I would give them 4 spaces of ammo, with the provision that at most two can be used for enveloping shots (enough for one env HCH shot). I would start with 3 HCH (FHR, LFHR, RFHR), 4 HCL (LF, RF, LR, RR), 2 PP-1 (FA+L/R), 2 PW-1 (FA+L/R), 2 PW-1 (LS/RS) and 4 PW-3 (LS/RS), with 38 power.
The Branthodon I would toss into the "later, if ever" bin, along with the Sigs and Rynish. They make an OK "monster", but for a regular SFB race, there are too many weird things about them.
Gary wrote:
>>Well, for going to major events, I could imagine a couple of people printing a few of the tourney SSDs out, and trying to arrange games with them. >>
Oh, sure. I don't know that they currently even exist anywhere that you can download them.
>>I don't think the Qixa (or Ryn) should assume the presence of their home space; no-one else gets that kind of benefit. If you take a WYN or Maghadim ship, you don't assume the other guy has just emerged from the radiation shell.>>
Oh, I'm not saying they should assume the presence of the home terrain. Just that without the home terrain, they are not that good. The WYN, for example, work just fine as ships without the terrain situation (assuming you use the actual warships and not, like, the little silly auxes or whatever). The Qixa need the terrain for their guns to work appropriately.
>>To be honest, I'm not sure if you're going to be able to make every Omega empire all that viable in a tourney format; if you can do well by the majority of them, that might be a price you'd have to pay. >>
Certainly. I suspect that a lot of the Omega empires are not really viable for tournament play--the Ryn, as funny as they are, are probably just too difficult to make work in that kind of situation. The Qixa probably aren't worth the effort to make them work. The Souldra are gonna be a huge problem in that TCs don't have crew units, and the hidden movement from the phase device is extra problematic in competitive play. The Branthodon, while probably workable, will be difficult due to all the wacky rules. Some of the empires probably just need to be written off completely.
>>I didn't say anything about not giving a Hiver BC or BCH access to Barbs; they could still take a brace, or more if needs be, so long as the composite unit is enough to get by.>>
Oh, sure--my point is simply that there is a lot of tricky balance to finagle to get a ship that is not so small that it just gets eaten alive and not too big that it plus the fighters are too much.
>>By the way, there is one thing to consider; according to (OR10.02), there are historical Hives that retained the use of certain Mæsron and Vari weapons, like tachyon guns and particle phasers. Maybe a tourney Hiver ship could incorporate some of those systems, in order to give it more options?>>
Maybe? We are yet to see any of these in print, so it is a possibility, but really, the guns they have are fine. They work like a disruptor ship (Klingon, Lyran, Kzinti) but instead of drones or ESGs, they have the cool fighters. So what I'd imagine needs to happen is that they get a ship that is the right balance of "I don't get outright killed by a single alpha strike due to being small and have weak shields" and "I have these cool fighters on the map that are hard to kill and can do actual damage". On the upside, the Barbs aren't that scary (i.e. where a stinger can do 30+ damage if it gets to R1, the Barb generally us doing about 10 damage in a best case situation), so less difficult to finagle than Hydrans. But still, will take some maneuvering.
Andy wrote:
>>On the Qixa: Even without the nebula, the Qixa have a lot of potential for interesting dynamics.>>
I suppose? On paper, they look like ships that exist mostly to be really cool in specific scenarios that they are designed to be in.
>>On the Hivers: I don't see the problem with making a good TC here. A souped up BC with Barb-2s should have no trouble competing. I disagree that the Sting Torpedo is a "sub-standard disruptor",>>
I didn't mean a [substandard disruptor] empire. I meant a substandard [disruptor empire].
With the fighters, they are disruptor ships with good fighters. Without the fighters, they are disruptor ships without a backup weapon. To make an interesting Hiver ship, for my money, you'd need fighters, and the fighters would need to be significant, in the sense that you'd probably want more than 2. So you'd need a ship that works out with 3 or 4 fighters, but isn't instantly killed by a comparable TCs alpha strike. I mean, I suppose you could just go with a SC3 BCH kinda ship that had standard TC shields and reasonable CA weapons and two fighters, but I don't know that it would be that interesting.
>>On the Drex: I would like to see them keep the -1 for racial flavor, even if that means more challenge to creating balance. I would give them 4 spaces of ammo, with the provision that at most two can be used for enveloping shots (enough for one env HCH shot). I would start with 3 HCH (FHR, LFHR, RFHR), 4 HCL (LF, RF, LR, RR), 2 PP-1 (FA+L/R), 2 PW-1 (FA+L/R), 2 PW-1 (LS/RS) and 4 PW-3 (LS/RS), with 38 power.>>
The big problem for my money with the Drex having the -1 to hit is that they auto hit to, what, R6, and have 1-5's to hit out to R12? Which is kind of nuts. Even for a slightly undergunned ship (and the ship you suggest seems still pretty heavily armed--17 guns, of which 3 are incredibly powerful, 4 are standard disruptors, and then 6xP1/4xP3). There probably is a way to finagle it, though, but it might require a smaller ship to start with.
>>The Branthodon I would toss into the "later, if ever" bin, along with the Sigs and Rynish. They make an OK "monster", but for a regular SFB race, there are too many weird things about them.>>
That's what it looks like to me as well.
The brick UWM is optimised for out-of-cloud use, as are the phaser-Ws on the CT. While the gauss cannon is better in the cloud, it's still okay in open space. The spark rings are more Cloud-dependant, but the out-clouder hulls don't carry them anyway.
They may be less fun away from home, but they still have options.
One thing about the Iridani; should their tourney ship carry a Gig?
For the Ymatrians, the BC is proabbly too big, but the shock on the historical CC could be an issue. Would it be better to ignore the shock, or remove an APB and add in more phasers?
Either way, I'd hate to be caught in the middle of a Ymatrian-Hydran knife fight...
I don't see why you couldn't have a SC 4 Hiver BC. I think having it SC 4 is an important part of the racial flavor. Give it TC shields. Upgrade the 360 PW-3s to PW-1s. Give it 3 more hull, two more warp, 4 Barb-2s, 4 admin shuttles. The ship is kinda wimpy, but not too much weaker than the CW hulls, and with the Barbs it has plenty of firepower.
An interesting side note is that the Hivers consider Barbs to be frigates. So if the main ship is killed, the scenario isn't over, because they still have ships on the map. Of course, if the Hiver's opponent isn't at least crippled at that point, the Barbs aren't going to last long. But against a cripple, they can do just fine; they don't need the mother ship to rearm their weapons.
Andy wrote:
>>I don't see why you couldn't have a SC 4 Hiver BC. I think having it SC 4 is an important part of the racial flavor. Give it TC shields. Upgrade the 360 PW-3s to PW-1s. Give it 3 more hull, two more warp, 4 Barb-2s, 4 admin shuttles. The ship is kinda wimpy, but not too much weaker than the CW hulls, and with the Barbs it has plenty of firepower. >>
I'd like to see a SC4 Hiver ship, but I suspect that the BC like you mention with 4 Barb-2's would be possibly too good--the Hiver BC already has 4 torps and a pretty good power curve. Add in the other 4 torps on the fighters (as well as the 8 more PW3s), and it might be really scary.
All I'm saying about the Hiver ship is that there is a lot of opportunity for it being too good or too weak and needing a bunch of tweaking to make it work. On the upside, the technology is completely straight forward.
With the Qixa, again, I don't see why they can't have ESRs on their ships. The ESR has a reasonable energy-damage ratio outside the cloud. The fact it is a 2-turn weapon means it is wimpy, but still quite reasonable. And flexible in its arming, I might add.
I would start with a CCG. Give it the Y215 refit. Add two center warp, one battery and one AWR. Add 3 ESRs (FA+L, FA, FA+R). Add two FX PW-1s. Add two PW-3s, LS/RS. Give it TC shields.
Quote:Add in the other 4 torps on the fighters (as well as the 8 more PW3s), and it might be really scary.
Perhaps, although keep in mind the fighter torps are standards, and the ship has split arcs. Focusing all your firepower in a single strike wil be difficult. But it could certainly be toned down if need be. What I don't see are the kind of issues with it that make ships hard to balance. As you say, the technology is straightforward, and I don't see big RPS issues. It looks slightly above average against drones, OK against plasma, maybe would struggle against strong DF ships, but overall, not harder to balance than the others.
On the Iridani, I'm not sure whether a gig would be worth the balance complications, but I'm not totally opposed to it.
The Ymatrians may be difficult to balance. My experience with them is that if they can line up a good centerline shot, they do ridiculous amounts of damage. If they can't line up that shot well early enough, then their ships fall apart. It's too much a one-trick pony. Here's my swag at it: Start with the CC. Add 5 center warp and one battery, delete 3 APR. Add 4 AP-3-360. Add one shuttle, delete one tractor, shields TC standard. Maybe phasers should 8 AP1/2 AP3 instead of 6/4, but that might be too much against non-droners. Against droners, you're using AP1s for defense, anyway.
I would place its priority in the development queue pretty low, though.
Here's my assessment of the various TCs:
Maesron: Still probably weak, but in the ballpark
Koligahr: Will kill plasma, but no worse than web. Otherwise fairly balanced.
Trobrin: In the ballpark, needs testing.
Vari: Need to address lack of drone defense (more tractor beams?). Otherwise OK.
Probr: Pretty balanced.
Chlorophon: I don't have a good feel for this one. It struggles against the Probr, but may slaughter others.
Drex: I see the current version looks a lot like what I was thinking of, except with a RHR HCH instead of FHR. Needs limits on enveloping ammo, more testing.
Alunda: The way it can blow people up if it ends the turn at range 4 or less may be problematic. Is going to have some RPS issues regardless, but current version is in the ballpark.
Hiver: Current version is slightly weaker than what I suggested, but may be about right. Needs testing.
Sigs: Unworkable, in the tourney or otherwise. Which is a shame, because they have an interesting dynamic.
Loriyill: Current version is a bit much. Needs to go to standard tourney shields. Needs testing.
Souldra: Weird technology is going to make them really hard to balance. OTOH, I don't see them as totally unworkable.
Iridani: Shouldn't be too hard to make a reasonable TC based on the Galleon.
Ymatrian: Probably can be balanced, but I don't know if they are worth it. See above.
Worb: Current version needs a lot of work. The SSR is a neat system, but has design flaws. Making a TC that isn't one-dimensional will be tricky.
FRA: Not super exciting, but not too difficult to balance, either.
Singer: This race doesn't really work in the historical setting, so I'm not sure how much can be done to make them work in the tourney. The basic problem is that the TSB that was playtested was monstrous, but at the last minute it was changed to something that is too wimpy.
Rynish: The absolute last race I would try to develop. Much worse than the Andromedans.
Bolosco: These guys have a lot of interesting stuff, and nothing that screams "unworkable". But their technology is unusual enough that it would need some extra testing to identify balance issues.
Qixa: Shouldn't be too hard to develop. See my posts above.
Branthodon: After playing them a couple times, I just don't like their dynamic. They will be difficult to balance because their technology is so different, the most alien of any race.
Does the current version of the Vari have any PP-2s? If not, a couple of those might help it deal with enemy seekers; especially when using a phaser stabilizer.
With the Iridani, I've already mentioned my preference to work "down" from the Clipper, rather than "up" from the Galleon, power-wise at least; dealing with one module slot might be less hassle than two.
(I would not recommend allowing players to change modules; I merely meant fine-tuning the modules the ships would have could be an issue. Or not.)
Still, if the Galleon is a better choice, so be it.
For the Bolosco, would it be best to focus on the base hull of the MC and try to make a viable TC out of that, or assume that either a small or large pod is attached (with the resultant turn mode reduction) and go from there?
I'm not hot on the idea of an FRA TC having both an SRC and two TM launchers. Like the historical BC, it ought to have either a pair of one or of the other; not a sample of both.
Plus, those SRCs only overlap on the fore and aft centrelines; and each time the Auroran uses one, he has to draw from his power reserve.
One thing worth considering is how many of its on-board reactors should be AWRs, and which should stay as APRs. With (presumably) the nacelles upped to 15-box types, there's probably only so much adidtional warp power the ship should have available for photon arming.