a lot of people think that fusions are only close-in and forget what concentrated fusions at 8 can do.

Fusions are an sub-par shipboard weapon but a great ATU weapon.

By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Thursday, January 07, 2010 - 10:04 pm: Edit

Playing in the Farthest Stars, I agree with Trauger completely. However, don't forget that the Fusions on ships are an excellent follow-up weapon on mixed armament ships, as well as an over-run deterrent when the fighters or HB's aren't available.

By Kevin Humar-Barrett (Cheethorne) on Friday, January 08, 2010 - 09:15 am: Edit

Mike Strain said:
"And having seen a textbook ISC eschelon formation fight a Hydran 'pike&shot' fleet that used the exact same tactic, I can tell you that the Hydran does it BETTER."

This is what I was thinking would happen. From appearances, it seems that Hydran fusion frigates are tough little ships, but also very cheap, allowing you to spend more points on the fighters to give you comparable large ships to what your opponent is flying (assuming equal BPV fleets).

No one would really want to get next to a ship armed with two fusions and two phaser-Gs, but once they decide not to close with them, a gunline of 4 fusion-armed frigates escorted by 6 stinger-2's would have 14 fusion beams that deal the same damage at range 3 as at range 10, so not closing with them would still give the Hydran player the option of dealing non-trivial direct damage.

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Friday, January 08, 2010 - 12:13 pm: Edit

Yeah the whole problem with the hydran fusion theory is that EW works against them. Of course if you did not play with ew the ftrs are golden.


Against a typical KZI or KLI fleet you will always have a 1 shift or more especially when using power hungry frigates due to ecm drones and just general lending. With armored drones being proliffic as well as ralads or ADD drones ftrs can really get chewed up before they reach decent ranges.

As well a typical shoot and scoot fleet has a lotta disr and p1's to pepper up any ftr screen(but hey at least it's hitting cheap ftrs and not your ships). With a turn of concetrated anti-ftr work depleting those avail then the following turn comes killing hydran ships.

Yeah the hydrans can normally arrange a decent R8 or R10 full ftr/fleet fire to cripple a ship this can normally only be done once and only to a CA or less size ship.

By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 02:40 pm: Edit

one of the major effects of a stinger is that the opponent doesn't want to get to range 1. this is an inconvenient trait to a ranger, but a useful one to a dragoon.

a ranger is tied to the speed of his little flock, a dragoon can drag it around with him. a ranger with consorts can drop a shield at range 8 and do a few in, and then so what? a few fusions and two phaser ones can crease a flank shield enough to give hellbores something to work with.

dragoon has more ability to lend to its fighters, and a CAs limited ability to rearm and repair fighters makes a bigger percentage improvement on a smaller fighter group.

unless your campaign rules reward fighter use somehow, go light on the guys, is my feeling. the marginal return from stingers beyond the first handful is often extremely low. if thirty gatlings doesn't cure your problem, how likely are thirty more gats to do it, really?

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 07:32 pm: Edit

I do need more experience with Stinger operations. As is my only real experience with them came against the rookie of our group. He flew a Klingon D7. I had a Free Escort Carrier with 5 St-2s and one Stinger F, and the Hunter Frigate.

He mauled up my Frigate... and allowed my Stingers to get to range two on him without doing anything other than fire two drones at them (Stinger F killed them), then wasted most of his phasers killing the Stinger F that just killed the drones. Probably the only reason the Hunter survived actually, it only had about 13 more internals before Excess Damage.

I emptied my Fusions and Gatlings into it. The D7 barely came out better than my Hunter did.

Then he took a Suicide Shuttle launched by the Hunter.

All that battle really taught me was not to forget all races have a seeking weapon and that it's a foolish Klink that lets 5 St-2s get to range 2.

So more insite into Hydran Fighter Doctrine is always appreciated.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, February 04, 2010 - 02:30 pm: Edit

"Crunch all you want. We'll make more"

By Robert Grey (Tugger) on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 07:34 pm: Edit

Well, I get to try to find the best of both worlds. In the Diplomacy by Other Means campaign, I am head of a ISC/Hydran empire. I get up to 1/3 of my bpv as Hydrans, the rest in ISC. Battle Fleet sizes are pretty small, only 700 BPV max, with fighters counting at full price. The overall fleet must have as many size 4 ships as size 2 and 3 combined, but individual battle fleets are not so lmited. Also to note, older ship classes, from y164 or before, get a 10% discount, even if they have later upgrades. This makes ships such as the ISC CA and CL and DD, and the Hydran DG and KN+ very nice deals...
Anyone have any fun ideas for ship/fleet builds? Its been a while since I have been in a campaign, and would love some ideas to bounce around.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 08:19 pm: Edit

Hellbores and PPDs ought to be a vicious combination.

Gunlines of hydran ships could be nice defending ISC heavies.

Are SC4 vs SC2+3 counted by BPV or number of hulls?

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 09:06 pm: Edit

Or go for the Hydran Glass Rapier idea. Take your Hydrans as CAs, mix Hellbores, Fusions, and a PFT. Have some fun with it. Great PFs, great Fighters, tones of close range power and handy Hellbores. Use the ISC to fill out the small ships and command vessels where the PPD helps out, and the ISC smaller ships are a little less... Cannon Fodder, than the Hydran ones.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 09:16 pm: Edit

His production is 1/3 hydran 2/3 ISC.

He could concentrate his Hydrans in a couple hydran-dominated fleets, but his (hydran) hull production is going to be hampered by the continuing cost of fighter replacement. Full cost for fighters hits hydrans pretty hard.

He almost wants to run ISC gunlines for Hydran capital ships or mixed Hydran/ISC capital ships just to conserve and expand his hydran supply, then dive into full scale fighter production when he has a good selection of big hulls.

By Robert Grey (Tugger) on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 01:57 pm: Edit

Further details.
Number of SC 4 hulls must >= SC 2 + SC 3 Hulls.
No PF's for anyone.
Limited EW, only EW effects are from Scout Channels, Terrain, Erratic Manuvers, and Wild Weasles.
Fighters are not a great deal here, as they count at full cost vs your Battle Fleet BPV cap, with a max currently of 700 BPV.
Fixed maps, 4x4 standard map size.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 11:24 pm: Edit

Well, your ISC needs to be most of your builds, and your ISC size class 4s are a much better deal, in my opinion. Hydran frigates and Destroyers are still fragile, being frigates and destroyers. And ISC hulls are pretty dang tough as is. A couple Plasma is always good for controlling close range manuevers and discouraging close battlepasses. More than a fusion beam does in my experience. And the Hydrans get real fun at CA/DN levels. You'll probably want the PPDs to give ya long range options, thus why I went with the CAs as your Hydran builds. Tough enough to take the lumps and deal the damage, yet not so expensive you don't want to risk the hull.

But then short of the Kzintis the Hydrans are my favorite for CA battles. So I may be biased.

By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Thursday, February 18, 2010 - 04:27 am: Edit

(H) lord bishop (ISC) 2 CA, DD, FF, SC. 775 BPV discounted to 698, i think

the ISC FF is a really under-appreciated ship, in my view. going heavy on the plasma makes you EW resistant, so you don't have to devote a big hull to a scout. you *really* get to load up on SC3 combat power as a fraction of your total fleet, maybe beyond the bounds of good taste in fact. if you are playing on open maps probably you want to turn down the short range bias a little, but even just a few weapons of the quality of hellbores and PPDs gives you a chance in an extended long-range engagement.

i'd want to maybe keep an LN+ or two in my OOB in case i found myself desiring a spot of seeking weapon suppression. paladins and dragoons are probably the only other hydran ships i would consider owning.

By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Thursday, February 18, 2010 - 12:46 pm: Edit

The only possible advantage the Dragoons have over the IRQ is the split HB arcs. ANd as the Hydran player in the Farthest Stars, I can say that I much prefer the IRQ.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, February 18, 2010 - 01:52 pm: Edit

But if you got to build dragoons at a 10% discount...?

By Robert Grey (Tugger) on Thursday, February 18, 2010 - 04:41 pm: Edit

Dragoons are indeed, 10% off. I also like the split arc, which also fires to the side. I think it might work well with the ISC tatic of PPD, and turn off, making them run thorough rear plasmas to stay with me. Having a pair of hellbore to toss over my shoulder and punish a persuing ship seems like a nice idea.

By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 03:23 pm: Edit

the IRQ is clearly better at the beginning of a battle (and by extension, in unequal battles of the sort often generated in campaigns). The BPV savings is icing. but one of the distinguishing features of the hellbore is that it gets stronger as the game goes on, and being able to fight through five shields instead of three plays to that strength.

or, to put it another way: when i design a fleet i always start with the IRQ if year permits, but if i have a few slush bpv at the end, i tend to spend it upgrading to DG, and i have pretty often been glad to have done so

By David Schultz (Ikvavenger) on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 10:07 am: Edit

I have a quick question if I may in regards to the Hydran's Stinger 2 fighter; back when I first played in the 80's the ST2 had the gatling phaser of course along with two fusions that had two charges each. Has this been changed to two fusions with just a single charge each?

I'm gettig back into SFB after a long hiatus and I'm still playing catch-up. Thanks.

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 10:56 am: Edit

David:

Nope. The stinger-2 still has 2 charges per fusion beam. Max range for a single charge shot is range 3.

However, the stinger-2 could use both charges on each beam for a shot, and extend the range to 10. This doesn't increase damage, just range.

By David Schultz (Ikvavenger) on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 11:25 am: Edit

Thank you sir, that clears it up.

By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 12:13 pm: Edit

Richard should know, I've fired off enough of them at him, and he's blown up plenty.

By David Schultz (Ikvavenger) on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 01:15 pm: Edit

I found out the hard way what a small pack of these things can do to a ship up close. Lost a C7 about six months ago by not realizing the danger I was in until it was too late. Bye bye C7!

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, March 15, 2010 - 01:37 pm: Edit

An important (and expensive) development for the ST-2 is the megapack (Megafighters, Module J2)

The megapack:

1) Doubles the a fighter's speed without the vulnerability of booster packs. That's 30 for the ST-2.

2) Adds +2 to damage needed to destroy the fighter (12 in the case of a Stinger 2 or H. Fighter crippled threshold is figured on the new value (ST-2 gets +1 to make what? 7? 8? I forget, sorry)

3) Adds a 3rd Fusion charge per fusion beam (and a 2nd HB charge to ST-Hs)

4) Adds a second chaff pack? I think so. I forget.

5) Costs 50% of the fighter's pre-mega BPV. ST-2Ms cost 15 per megafighter.

By John Smith (Johnsmith) on Monday, March 15, 2010 - 11:23 pm: Edit

Not all that costly for it's benifits. Probably it's the most cost effective upgrade for any fighter (except maybe Vudar fighters).