One thing to consider. The Rules state (I can go look which if needed) that heavy PF couldn't happen because they couldn't fit into the warp field of the carrying ship. The XPF at these sizes would have the same trouble but they have to be bigger so that they might survive one turn on the battle field.

I offer this solution. There is presidence for a ship to tend ships. It should be possible to at least build specialized ships to carry the large PFs. Call them PFX Carriers. The heavy carries two squadrons (12) and the medium carries on large (8). Ships would still be unable to tend them because of their size. Bases would opperate them. Two per pod.

Perhaps make them an X2 revival for the Xork invasion in this way.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 03:58 pm: Edit

Loren,

You know, the Andros were able to dock even larger ships than PFH internally.

Suppose X2 PFT's used reverse-engineered Hangar boxes instead of mech links?

PF and PFH docked internally would have to have their shields off, but shuttle hits still hit stuff in the hangar. Since Galactics also have shuttle boxes, we could borrow from weapon damage precedences and say that every 3rd or 4th shuttle hit must go to a shuttle box.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 05:03 pm: Edit

Oh ya, I know. That was part of the precedence I mentioned. I was stating the things larger than HPF are docked and moved at warp speeds. So it wasn't purely the size of the HPFs that made them unworkable. It was the combination of the design of the ships that carried them, their size and the technology of the day.

My solution is that there could be specialized hulls to carry them. Internally (or mostly) was what I had in mind. These would be sleek war ships like past carriers and not conversions either. And not a miniature Seltorian Hive ship either (though keep that philosophy in mind). Something totally new called a Carrier (not a tender) along the lines of an auxillary but better (not so slow and not under all those resrictions with X2 tech as needed). Not a battle line ship.

Lets take this back to the old carrier style of tactics flying bigger planes. Lets try to hit around 360 BPV for a standard Squadron plus the cost of a leader and scout (total 400).

Carriers should be beefy, long ranged and defence rich. The Carrier should have the offencive capability to handle a DDXX at the most. Perhaps an MC of 1 or more. Hauling 12 of these might should be MC 1.5. The medeum HPF Carrier at MC 1. No small Carriers.

This is just a though. I can take it or leave it.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 07:50 pm: Edit

Okay, ask and ye shall receive...

Romulan Centurion-X PF Flotilla

I made this pretty much by the rules in the old Supplement 2 (XR2.70 X-Refits), applying the standard modifications; 33% increase in warp power (engines only, not boosters), 33% shield increase, 50% increase in phaser-1's (rounded up, I'm afraid), all refits applied, and a 50% increase in BPV. Also, the plasma-F's are changed to plasma-L's. I didn't double up on PPT's, though, as I don't see how you could get 'em on the things. Also, I applied the shield increase after applying the shield refit, since that's the order of precedence used in those rules. All in all, these are pretty damned nasty little boats; they can launch 28 plasma L's, for a potential 460 points of plasma damage. Say bye-bye to even a starbase with that sort of pasting.

I'll work on the G-1's, and get them up later.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 09:13 pm: Edit

Awww, now see, I was hoping you'd replace the torps using the SKA -> SKX precedent.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 09:20 pm: Edit

PF-X shouldn't be very good and shouldn't be worth while.
Only the Lyrans should experiment with them and find their X-tech marginally workable.

• No X-Aegis.
• Accelleration remained at 15 and tripple...making X-ships their equals.

• X-PFs have 3 free ECCM.
Have 2 Swing points and may generate no more than 7 points of electronic warfare.

• All Ph-2s become Ph-1s.
•Drone racks become GX and CX and carry type VII, VIII and IX drones.
• Ph-3s are improoved to have Ph-3s.

• Shields are increased to 12 boxes per sheild.

• PF special Sensors are NOT X special sensors.

• Warp Booster packs are the only area where the Lyrans had and real success. All warp booster packs are doubled in effect ( and number of boxes ).

• A change in the PF DAC to make A6 and A5 Warp Engine Hits with the XWBP carried.


The net result was that the PFs were too small and too cheap to provide X-tech to.
The only real area that could be pushed forward was Warp Booster Packs. And thus X-PFs had massive ammount of power ( in a relative sense ) with which to perform their tasks, but no other advances.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 05:12 am: Edit

Mike,

The plasma races would probably keep F-torps.

The power cuve on a PFX isn't that much better than a PF. 5 2-2-3 arming costs could be a real killer.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 08:24 am: Edit

John,

Probably a good idea. Is the X PF a serious topic? Or, is it a JFF thing?

Should have the G1X up later today; I finished the actual ships, but still have some charts to do to finish it up.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 10:20 am: Edit

One of the proposals allowed for X0 ships to receive partial X tech. A Cent with an X-Bat, 2 XP1, a bit more warp and improved shields would be enough without costing a fortune but the STH would make a much more likely unit to convert in this way.

L-Torps would be difficult to reload but sure would improve these unit's survivability as they would be forced to gain some distance after firing to recharge.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Okay, the Klingon G1-X.

Klingon G1-X Advanced PF

Did pretty much as Mike West suggested, but applied the 50% increase in phasers as well as the upgrade from P2 to P1. That gives these little babies substantial phaser punch. The disruptor didn't change much (though I did arbitrarily increase the range from 10 to 12) but the drones are now GX racks. That's a pretty darn big improvement.

Are these being done just for fun, or is there a serious look at X-PF's going on, here? I always thought SVC pretty much said "No" to X tech on PF's, since they're attrition units. I don't mind making these up, of course, but I'm not sure how it's gonna go over, even for 2X.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 05:44 pm: Edit

Mike:

Two suggestions:
- Remove the reloads from the drone racks. I seriously doubt the operational aspects of PFXs would change much from PFs. Therefore, the racks should have no reloads.

- If you are going to increase the range of the disruptors, why not go all the way to 15 hexes? 12 hexes makes no sense for disruptors, and has never been used. 15 hexes work for disruptors, plus has the nice synergy of being one of those "magic" X-related ranges.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 05:46 pm: Edit

Mike:

BTW, can I steal the "format" of your PF SSDs?

Mine will look a bit different, but if I can steal yours, I don't need to create the boxes and overall layout.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 05:56 pm: Edit

Steal away. The boxes weren't a problem, but all the little charts and such (especially the speed cost chart) sure were.

Good call on the drones; probably right about that. Is there an A"X" rack? And, you know, I started to make the disruptors range 15...I really did. But it seemed too much. I'll change it though, and re-post 'em here.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 05:58 pm: Edit

There are other places to find PF SSDs... I spent an ungodly amount of time on mine, but I think the results are nice. (See the Frax Mini-Sub topic for an example.)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 06:01 pm: Edit

Mike R. I agree with Mike W. The Disruptors should be at least R15. That's only 5 Disruptors on around 265 BPV. In their era that ain't much.

They have to be able to stay out of that new R10 OL range easy enough.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 06:05 pm: Edit

As promised, and corrected...

Klingon G1-X PF Flotilla

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 07:09 pm: Edit

Mike Raper:

With Gx racks, there is really no need for your G1X design to have an ADD rack. Gx racks were designed to pull "double duty" for the X-ships. I can't recall a single X-design that has an ADD rack (other than perhaps in an Orion option mount).

I would suggest either a 3rd Gx rack (wow!), or moving the 3rd P1 you added to the ADD position, with a firing arc of RX. That would give it more of a Klingon "feel."

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 08:23 pm: Edit

Ya know, Mike, I agree with Richard. Also if you make the Disruptor FH this ship could opperate totally obleque. Which would be a very good thing for a PF in the X era.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 08:28 pm: Edit

R10 Disruptors !?!

Lets not forget that we are in the X1R topic.


As I said before.

Only Lyrans should toy with X-tech on PFs.

Remember the X-Aegis allows them top shoots at PFs in rapid fire mode. Ordinary PFs will die so rapidly that other races gave up on the idea entirely.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 08:35 pm: Edit

Richard, Loren,

The problem is, the G-rack on the PF (per Mike West's suggestion) doesn't have any reloads. So, you really need that ADD if you want to retain what drone throw weight you have. I can go either way with it, though. As for the disruptor arc, where is it? Is there anything blocking it from having an FH arc?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 08:41 pm: Edit

MJC: They have R15 disruptors.

I think it is prudent to explore PFs for every one. I can fully imagine there being a real need for them against the Xorkellians. We don't know what X2 and the Xorks will finally be but it's worth it to explore the possability of the races turning back to using them. If they do, what will they be like?

After all the races using them to the degree they did I would say that if it is practical for any of them it would be practical for all. Save the Feds who, if they chose to but probably wouldn't, would be breaking new ground.

I think X2 era PFs would be based on the heavy PFs in SSJ. And then maybe a small step up. To solve the problems of a tender they would build special carriers. Large Auxillary type ships that avoid contact. Large and lumbering they would just short of moble launch bases. Typically they would stay more than a 1000 hexs away. They would be patrol support ships.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 08:45 pm: Edit

Possibly they could be opperated from a pod that was little more than a bare bones mooring bay. It would hold three on three mech-links and have three hull and three cargo. Nothing else could fit. The T7X could tow two such pods to opperate a squadron of six.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 10:32 pm: Edit

I'm sure this is totally illegal, but it was too much fun to pass up. Talk about a really good escort cruiser...

Federation (Old) Light Cruiser with X Refit

With those phaser arcs and that speed advantage, you could run some really great X interference.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 12:09 am: Edit

I concur with Richard Sherman, put the 3rd P1 in the ADD-RX position. I like the R=15 disruptor.

For fighting the Xorks it is possible the races would create base only heavy PFs not unlike the heavy fighter. These could replace the police ship, or more accurately replace about six police ships.

Another cool idea I used on the X1R Fed ship I posted would be to use the GX2 drone rack. It has two banks of drones, 4 spaces per bank. The second bank doesn't help as much on a PF as a ship with reloads but it does up drone storage from 6 to 8 spaces without creating yet another new rack type.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 01:44 am: Edit

Having all races have an XPF kills racial flavour.

Now if the Lyrans had one.
And the Hydrans had one...for the Fi-Cons...Natch.
Then the Kzinti's or the Klingons might have XPFs but not both...and since the Kzintis look like they might get X-Fighters, I'ld say the Klingons.

But anything more than that looses racial flavour.