This may have been suggested before but I have never seen it. I was thinking, if drones were designed to launch at sublight speeds and given stealth systems similar to mines would it be possible to create a drone much harder to detect or target? Would active guidance by the launching ship cancel any useful effect? Can a drone work on passive targeting? Since I do not know how a drone is detected I cannot answer these questions. I also do not know the rules well enough to write a rule for others to discuss. I just thought this could be worked out into an effective system.

Personally I see no reason why this could not be done in the earliest time-periods. I have always wondered how the Kzinti survived their many dangerous neighbors and perhaps slow speed drones were an improvement they did not always use.

I will leave this to see if anyone finds it interesting.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 10:50 pm: Edit

The Kzinti survived mainly because A) the Klingons and Lyrans were mainly fighting their other neighbors and thus were unable to focus their attention on the Kzinti.

Also, it's not as if the Kzinti were ever actually a major threat to either species.....the Kzinti ALWAYS attack before their ready...

Remember that the Klingons fought HUGE wars with the Tholians and Hydrans, and were fairly wary of the Lyrans (who were fighting the Carnivons, the Hydrans, and, of course, each other).

The Feds, of course, fought defensive wars only vs the Kzinti.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 12:42 pm: Edit

"Launch at sublight speeds and given stealth"

That might be a definition of a detection radius zero Tbomb. it's too slow to move from one hex to another and it goes boom when you move INTO it's hex. You know it's there, but sweeping it is hard.

And to make it even harder, you can use the hidden deployment rules.

By Darin Smith (Dsmith) on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 12:59 pm: Edit

I was assuming the drone would move speed 1.

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 02:57 pm: Edit

You do know what this sounds like... a self-moving minefield, that can target an immovable objects (such as a base station or base on an asteroid).

Really???

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 03:44 pm: Edit

See Auto Reject list...

"M–MINES: Medium mines (a proposal is on file).
Mines able to be set for detonation after a specified delay.
Any form of moving mine...."

The only economic justification I can think of for this is if, #1 sublight drones were significantly cheaper than normal drones, and #2 they could be used for planetary bombardment where the delay of passing thrugh a planets atmosphere degrades normal drones (slow, moderate, medium or fast speeds) no matter what speed they travel at.

if they cost the same as normal drones (in economic terms) there would be no reason to use sublight drones.

By Darin Smith (Dsmith) on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 03:46 pm: Edit

Not really how I think of it. But a ship launched drone that moves 1 hex a turn and uses mine detection rules to target is the kind of idea it could possibly use. If the idea is possible at all. Could use totally different rules as well. I want this to be drone launched as a normal drone. It would cost as much as a slow speed drone trading warp drive for stealth feature.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 06:43 pm: Edit

These things are functionally equivalent to mines, especially in duels, and IMO equate to converting every Kzinti ship into a ship with four mine racks.

You'll never detect them because you need to be moving speed 6 or slower to detect mines. That's begging to get anchored IMO. So basically you're flying at battle speeds and hoping not to run over a drone and causing it to impact. What's worse (than a T-bomb) is that you can't just avoid the hexes the other ship's been flying in... these things can move, you don't know what hexes they might be in after a few turns.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 07:15 pm: Edit

Under existing rules these drones could not be launched on passive fire control unless they were self-guiding, which seems unlikely. (And if it has a self-guidance package, then it will by definition be screaming "here I am" to everyone.) Their targets would also have to be at least five hexes away when they were launched.

The rules currently allow for you to not identify a target (i.e., to not tell your opponent what the drone is targeted on) on launch, but launch has to be announced.

Rule (D17.4-A) provides that if a ship launches a seeking weapon (drone, plasma torpedo, shuttle of some type), everyone knows it did, and everyone knows that there is a "size class 7" object on the map.

Now, learning the target of the drone is still a lab function, although a Speed 1 drone will be fairly easy to avoid since it only moves on Impulse #32.

If you want to use cloaked drones you would need to see Module C4 "Catfish Drones".

Otherwise a sublight drone launch is still a drone launch (largely this issue also affects the RYN, whose seeking weapons move by transporter, but are otherwise "sublight" and launch as any other drone.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, July 19, 2011 - 12:46 am: Edit

They should be *really* easy to avoid as they will only be able to move three hexes. (Drones only last for three turns.)

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Tuesday, July 19, 2011 - 01:41 am: Edit

But with a type-IIIXX frame, you could do drone bombardment from 100 hexes away!

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, July 19, 2011 - 03:57 pm: Edit

Terry:

Question, if you launch from 100 hexes away, a sublight drone with a 100 turn endurance limit (as in a type IIIXX frame), wouldnt said drones go inert during its last turn of endurance inside the atmosphere just short of detonation?

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Tuesday, July 19, 2011 - 04:53 pm: Edit

Airburst detonation.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, July 19, 2011 - 05:30 pm: Edit

Hah!
Unfortunately, SPP could point out that drones go inert, not detonate if they fail to reach target after exceeding their endurance!

besides, what kind of sick, malignant mind would target a planet with 300 type-IIIXX drones, and launch them from outside of their maximum range at a populated planet!?!?!

... unless you assume that the drone attack is a fiendishly clever tactic to draw out the planets defending force of fighters and shuttles so that they could be targeted by the attacker.

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Tuesday, July 19, 2011 - 06:29 pm: Edit

300 Type-IIIXX starfish drones...

By Darin Smith (Dsmith) on Tuesday, July 19, 2011 - 07:06 pm: Edit

Some reasons I thought these drones would be useful.

1. Early Kzinti ships already use the overrun or anchor tactics to destroy their enemies in the age of slow drones. In this sublight drones that only move once per turn can viably hit their target.

2. If they have stealth like abilities that makes them harder to target or damage it makes the anchor/overrun that much stronger.

3. I was thinking sublight drones might have a longer endurance because it was not using all the space for a warp engine, but this might be just my idea and unworkable.

Does anyone have any ideas that are reasonable for what the drone's stealth system may be like? I don't have C4 and so cannot reference the catfish drone.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 02:48 am: Edit

---

Quote:

what kind of sick, malignant mind would target a planet with 300 type-IIIXX drones, and launch them from outside of their maximum range at a populated planet!?!?!

---

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 10:44 am: Edit

stealth like abilities

So why not just say they have +1 ECM... Whatever...

By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 01:07 pm: Edit

Yeah, stealth in SFB is usually natural ECM (see Orions). We know from sublight Romulan cloaking costs and sublight disengagement rules that it's EASY to hide a sublight target, so the modifier can be large (and needs to be or the target will simply spend one or two battery power on EW and negate the entire point).

I'd go with +2 natural ECM. It's too little to make this a game-changer, but enough to give it nitch uses. I'd probably only allow use in games with full EW (otherwise it's just too good in an anchor, if the Kzinti have had this tech why haven't we heard about it previously if its all that good).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 01:20 pm: Edit

Darin Smith said: Some reasons I thought these drones would be useful. 1. Early Kzinti ships already use the overrun or anchor tactics to destroy their enemies in the age of slow drones. In this sublight drones that only move once per turn can viably hit their target.

REPLY: Irrelevant. Speed 8 drones are aleady zero cost, so you would be pushing for a sublight drone that REDUCES the cost of the ship carrying it. And Speed 8 drones already operate in all ways as your Speed 1 drone in an overrun. This makes the proposed drone LESS useful in that it pretty much can only be used for the overrun as it is too easy to outmaneuver as artifical terrain.

Darin Smith said: Some reasons I thought these drones would be useful. 2. If they have stealth like abilities that makes them harder to target or damage it makes the anchor/overrun that much stronger.

REPLY: Unless the drone is able to completely disappear from sensors (a major rules change) and can be launched without anyone knowing it was launched (another major rules change) an EW bonus (as others have suggested) is pretty irrelevant.

Darin Smith said: Some reasons I thought these drones would be useful.3. I was thinking sublight drones might have a longer endurance because it was not using all the space for a warp engine, but this might be just my idea and unworkable.

REPLY: Even if it is not using all that space for a warp engine, it is using all that space for its impulse engine and the fuel for it. Seriously, if an impulse drive took so little space that you can increase the range, then sublight shuttles would have more cargo valume than warp powered shuttles.

Darin Smith said: Does anyone have any ideas that are reasonable for what the drone's stealth system may be like? I don't have C4 and so cannot reference the catfish drone.

REPLY: Catfish drones are drones with cloaking devices which are only possible in simulators and so would not provide an exception for sublight drones.

By Darin Smith (Dsmith) on Friday, July 22, 2011 - 08:56 pm: Edit

Oh well I thought I might have stumbled on an interesting idea. Maybe next time.

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Friday, July 22, 2011 - 11:41 pm: Edit

SPP said:

"REPLY: Unless the drone is able to completely disappear from sensors (a major rules change) and can be launched without anyone knowing it was launched (another major rules change) an EW bonus (as others have suggested) is pretty irrelevant."

While the other points are valid and may be unable to overcome, there is is one point that could be used.

A ship is able to deploy a mine out a shuttle bay without the opponent being able to detect it. What if a drone could detach from it's launcher with a delayed activation? Once the drone started to move, it would be detected from the opposing ship.

You still have to move the drone at least at the slow speed, but the owning player could decide on when to activate the drone. All other aspects about drone launch would still have to apply. Only one drone per launcher per turn. Eight impulse delay over two turns (Exception: Type-C racks could deploy two drones within a turn) etc.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, July 23, 2011 - 08:21 pm: Edit

George Duffy:

And that pretty much makes it a "seeking mine" which is on the auto-reject list.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, July 23, 2011 - 08:42 pm: Edit

Darin Smith:

There is always a chance that you are seeing something that I am not seeing. And there is never anything wrong with proposing an idea and getting feedback (sometimes the feedback might be "I proposed that X years aga and it was rejected for these reasons).

I almost always wind up the heavy (the guy who digs through the rule books and tries to find the problems), but that does not mean I do not want people to bring their ideas.

Yours is, honestly, one of those cases where I do not think I am getting what you are trying to do.

A Kzinti ship already includes the cost of Speed 8 drones in its BPV. I do not see an advantage in an even slower drone (Speed 1). Yes, the drone would still hit its target (if the target did not leave the hex the drone was launched in) as a result of an overrun (on the very next impulse), but so will a type-I slow drone, and a type-I slow drone can be launched at targets further away and has more influence on the enemy's maneuver as artifical terrain (because it can respond to his movement and shift across the map). Which to me makes a Speed 1 drone a lot less useful.

Sure, I can think of circumstances where such a drone is adequate (bombarding a planet for general destruction from Range two or three hexes for example). But why would I carry or manufacture such drones when type-Is are available and far more flexible?

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Saturday, July 23, 2011 - 09:01 pm: Edit

Anyway, we already have almost-sublight drones (Atomic Missiles, see Y1), and boy, they suck on ice.