| By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 06:25 pm: Edit |
Jeff, its not the BPV that matters, its the historic need. If the need says we need 1000 BPV ships then the races will build 1000-point ships. With the races not at war for the first time in generations there will be little political stomach to push already devastated economies to build ships more expensive then the B10.
The proposal in the timeline topic is for a period of cold peace/trade wars after the Andros are defeated. During this time (X1R: Y205-225) the races are building fewer, faster, less expensive, more flexible ships backed up with the older war classes for less critical internal tasks. Then the Xorks come and smash through half the Alpha quadrant before we can put out enough X2 warships to force them back. These X2 warships built sometime after Y225 are the monsters you seek.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 07:09 pm: Edit |
Actually, I could see X2 ships being so well designed that their battle BPV would be typically higher that their EPV.
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 07:12 pm: Edit |
Ditto. I think the biggest issue isn't the BPV per se...it's how we get that BPV. Some prefer a small-but-advanced ship approach, others less advanced but larger and more powerful. Either way, you could get a 400 BPV, but which is more desirable is harder to guess.
| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 07:31 pm: Edit |
Let's set a target of 300 and see if we can rationalize getting in all the goodies we want. if not, we can slosh up to about 60, with a hard celing of 375.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 08:21 pm: Edit |
John, I think that's a good plan.
| By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 09:11 pm: Edit |
Loren,
Isn't that always the case of new technology? More effectiveness at cheaper cost?
I'm with the rest of you in writing Y205-Y225 (or whatever year the Xorks arrive in force) as a period of relative peace.
I've probably already said this, but my impression of that era would be one where cruiser/dreadnought production would be seriously reduced, while frigates and destroyers would be the common ships of the era. A Y205 FF would be much stronger than a Y140 FF (based on improved technology), but would be in the same role.
Once the Xorks arrive, that's another era of starship development.
In Y140, the Orions used LRs and CRs for raiding, and CAs as enforcers.
In a duel, most navies would equal that with an FF or DD for protection and a CA as an enforcer.
What are the pirates in Y205 using for convoy raids?
| By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 09:28 pm: Edit |
Since the convoys probably have surplus X0 CW and DW acting as escorts I'd say the pirates need some serious horsepower.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 09:56 pm: Edit |
Quote:A B10 with the B, K, Y175 refits and all drones as fast Type-1 but without the Mechlinks or SFGs would come in at 386.
Quote:Jeff, its not the BPV that matters, its the historic need. If the need says we need 1000 BPV ships then the races will build 1000-point ships. With the races not at war for the first time in generations there will be little political stomach to push already devastated economies to build ships more expensive then the B10.
The proposal in the timeline topic is for a period of cold peace/trade wars after the Andros are defeated. During this time (X1R: Y205-225) the races are building fewer, faster, less expensive, more flexible ships backed up with the older war classes for less critical internal tasks. Then the Xorks come and smash through half the Alpha quadrant before we can put out enough X2 warships to force them back. These X2 warships built sometime after Y225 are the monsters you seek.
Quote:Let's set a target of 300 and see if we can rationalize getting in all the goodies we want. if not, we can slosh up to about 60, with a hard celing of 375.
Quote:I'm with the rest of you in writing Y205-Y225 (or whatever year the Xorks arrive in force) as a period of relative peace.
| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 10:27 pm: Edit |
I don't think you could really pry the admiral's hands off their heavy ships.
I would, however, support a more leisurly production schedule until the Xorks arive.
| By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 11:47 pm: Edit |
MJC said:
Quote:Since there are some ho beleive that X-ships are DN killers, perhaps X2 ships should be BB killers.
Quote:I'm not afraid of a hard ceiling of 500 BPV.
Quote:The DDXX should slowly become the backbone of Starfleets as they replace the NCAs and BCHs that are slowly becoming worn out.
The FFXX should come in several flavours and be a great replacement Scout, Escort, Minsweeper, Etc.
The CCXX shouldn't get built until the Xork invasion or perhaps built as a DNH replacement by the races that feel it warrentted.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 11:58 pm: Edit |
Well, that's debatable.
Can I organise a FFSC-XX, and 2 DDXX and Jump on that BCHX enforcer the Orions are using ( or is it a CCXX the Orions have )?
You don't need an anti-enforcer ship...but it's close enough to being a legitimate excuss that the Admiralty may build 1 CCXX for that purpose.
Each race has 1 CCXX until the Xork invasion is fine by me.
Perhaps that's their "Treaty of Washington"!?!
| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 12:06 am: Edit |
The real Treaty of Washington LIMITED construction of heavy ships, not forbade them.
The SFU should follow suit.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 12:21 am: Edit |
There will be something call "The Trade Wars". It is in the established history and SVC has stated there will be. What that will be may be similar or something compleatly different according to G.O.D. (Games Overworked Designer).
There can be a lot of action and still be relatively peacefull compaired to the last 30 years of war. The Klingons will still have their thirst for conquest. The Romulans will still need resources. The Lyrans and Kzinti will still hate each other. And the Pirates will still be greedy.
That said, I suggest that the X2 XCC will be a little more common than the GW DN and that the XCL will be the new work horse of the fleet. Desroyers will be the back up and will perform the mission not needing a full CL. The Frigate will be specialized units. Drone Frigates, Scout/Survey Frigates, Fast Resuply, Battle Escort Frigates, and Police Frigates to name a few. Each of the larger hulls will be capable of some specialization via the NWO boxs but frigates will become the "Little Gems" of the galaxy.
The Cruisers will all be flag ships and when two or more get together something big is going down. Real big!
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 02:03 am: Edit |
Now that you bring it up.
I was thinking earlier that the CLXX could have Flag Bridges mounted on them in order to SIDESTEP the TREATY.
Such light cruisers could become the basis LEADER VERSION of the CLs that would be pumped out in massive numbers after the Advent of the Xork invasion.
Perhaps with one set of CLs being based on CL hulls and the other on NCL hulls.
I'ld also like to say that 1 per race counts in my book as limited and not FORBIDDEN.
The limit could be raised or the CLXX idea could be used...I'm not sure which would seem more popular.
| By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 02:17 am: Edit |
a fleet flagship needs more then just lots of flag bridges.
you can put a lot of flag bridges on a HDW to produce a ship with a command rating of 10 and it will allow you to have a full fleet in the battle, but the fact that your command ship has very little combat capacity itself means that you are really not any better off then if you just had a CR 9 flagship on a normal hull.
in the GW this would be a CC leading ~9 other ships (free scout, battlegroup, etc not being counted) instead of a HDW leading ~10 other ships
X1 ships generally have a command rating 1 higher then GW ships of the same class (CX has a command rating of 10, same as a DN or BCH)
now a CL/NCL only has a command rating of 6 with a DD being 5 so adding 2 to these for 2x ships still leaves you unable to effectivly field a full fleet, and adding 4 to the command rating doesn't seem reasonable to me.
so you would still need XCC's to be the fleet flagships, not many of them becouse you seldom need a full fleet, but when you do there's not really a substatute.
| By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 02:19 am: Edit |
also the number of larger ships will vary by race, for example the klingon FX is CR7 while the Fed DDX is only a 6 so the feds will need more command ships to make up for the fact that the DDX lead squadrons cannot max a FX lead squadron.
most of the time it shouldn't matter, but it will make a difference a fair amount of the time.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 03:25 am: Edit |
Okay.
Maybe CLXX will not be defacto flags ships.
Maybe the CLXX will replace CCHs and BCHs and the DDXX will replace the NCAs and BCs ( CBs? ) or maybe the CLXX just wont come to be ( Except for the Klingons and their D5 analog...Am I the only one who'ld like to skip out on that if the other races don't get a CLXX!?! ).
| By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 04:22 am: Edit |
MJC, for the CLXX to replace the BCH as a fleet flagship it will have to get a +4 CR increase from the GW era CL ships, X1 adds +1 CR so this would mean that X2 adds an additional +3
unless you are saying that X2 fleets will be smaller and therefor don't need as many ships (aas well as not needing such large ships) you are headed for trouble.
for individual ship capabilities we are saying roughly that each generation newer should be able to take on one size large ship
so
a CX can fight a DN
a CLX can fight a CA
etc
but if the command rating doesn't increase as much (and as I show above it's unreasonable for it to) then you have the 'monster fleets' shrinking even though the smaller ships are individually as good as the previous generation you have fewer of them.
unless you make the new generation of ships even better on a one-for-one basis you can build in a situation where a GW era fleet cannot be matched by a X2 era fleet
| By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 10:14 am: Edit |
The X1 CX isn't going to be immediately retired or rendered obsoloete post Y205. The Feds built about 35 CX between Y181 and Y204, not to mention how many DN may have just received XP tech. A new class built in Y205 isn't going to immediately make the X1 ships retired and obsolete. In fact with the reduced military pressure on the Alphas the production of Y205-225 might be rather low leaving the bulk of the work up to X1 and X1R.
X1 CX and DN(XP) ships were probably parked as too expensive to operate during peace time. Not to say they wouldn't be parked in key systems worthy of being defended from raids. Still, that's a lot of command ships hanging around if needed. I wouldn't think there would be much need for CR10 ships until the Xorks show up.
A DN(XP) would be used to squash a base. A CX would be used to hunt down a Y205-CL. A DN(XP) couldn't catch a Y205-CL. Neither ship could catch a Xork or the X2 ship designed to counter the Xorks (a strategic increase that need not increase combat power over X1R2 to maintain compatability).
When the Xorks arrive you start building X1R2 CC, BCH, DN (monsters by GW standards, designed but never built for lack of resources and threat, but not as fast strategically as the Xorks) for defensive purposes. X2 ships match the Xorks speed and will bring the battle to them.
| By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 10:24 am: Edit |
assuming that X2 ships have strategic mobility advantages over the X1 ships you will need command ships able to keep up so there will be a definate need for X2 command ships.
since there will be X1 and Xp command ships in many places it's not as pressing a need as I had origionally thought, but they should be around, a couple per race, not just plans on the drawing board
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 12:40 pm: Edit |
When X2 starts to get into full production I think all remaining X1 ship would begin to be mothballed and all but the very best XP ship would be scrapped (maybe one or two made into a museum). All X0 ship would be scrapped (except those that are already museums).
Hulls and Rolls. Basically I've been saying take the typical mission for each hull type and shift it down one size.
XCCs would be Fleet Flag ships. XCLs would cirtainly have flag bride but not to be a "Flag Ship" per say but more as a squadron leader. Remember, large fleets will be very unusual until the Xorks come.
| By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 01:30 pm: Edit |
Loren: I agree, but not necessarily for the reasons you state:
X1 built Y181-204
XP built Y190-204
XR built Y205-225 (Light trade war ships)
Xork invade with X2 tech Y215
XR2 built Y215-225 (Heavy next gen warships, more deadly and larger versions of XR tech)
X2 built Y226-? (X2 ships, can match Xork strategic speed and begin to push back)
By Y226 X0 should be gone. XP nearly gone (destroyed by the Xork). X1 mostly gone. XR close to gone. XR2 in heavy defensive combat against the Xorks. X2 offensive combat against the Xorks begins.
From your comment it looks like you are skipping over the trade wars or referring to the trade war ships as X2. In the timeline topic (albeit burried, I'll have to repost it) X2 is based on the next jump in strategic speed.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 03:09 pm: Edit |
I fuigured that X1 would be pulled from mothballs when the Xorks invade. That's what I ment.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 08:24 pm: Edit |
Quote:assuming that X2 ships have strategic mobility advantages over the X1 ships you will need command ships able to keep up so there will be a definate need for X2 command ships.
since there will be X1 and Xp command ships in many places it's not as pressing a need as I had origionally thought, but they should be around, a couple per race, not just plans on the drawing board
Quote:From your comment it looks like you are skipping over the trade wars or referring to the trade war ships as X2. In the timeline topic (albeit burried, I'll have to repost it) X2 is based on the next jump in strategic speed.
Quote:I fuigured that X1 would be pulled from mothballs when the Xorks invade. That's what I ment.
| By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 08:32 pm: Edit |
Would not the X1 CX become the backbone of the fleet, similarly as the CA becomes the standard warship pre GW and remains so for many years?
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