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If we allow a X2 to exceed speed 31, it gives the X2 an unbreakable advantage in always seeing what the non-X2 does first.

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By Chris LaRusso (Soulcatcher) on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 12:28 am: Edit

How about a piercing mode, similar to a spearfish drone...25% of damage is internals? Should not be counted as leak.

Or better yet double overload, but reduced range to range 4, needs to cool 32 impulses. It is not like fusion cooling. It may fire and arm during this period, but takes automatic feedback damage.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 02:14 pm: Edit

MJC,

It's a question of effort.

A MY ship can routinely exceed the speed of even a late-EY ship but at a reasonably high cost.

For X2 ships, moving at 31 is looking to be pretty effortless.

Agreed, it's not a game-breaker but it's a consideration. Especially if X2 ships break the speed-32 limit. Then, they potentially see a GW or X1 ship move once, then get two hexes of movement to reply.

That's massively more useful than the best MY vs EY case where the MY ship just gets one hex to respond with. Often with MY vs. EY one ship isn't moving that impulse so its easy to see where either ship is going and respond. The EY ship isn't always at a disadvantage.

With X2, the average speed of the game has increased so every time the GW/X1 ship moves the X2 ship will likely also move and move after seeing the GW/X1 ship move. It's a much more constant effect.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 09:35 pm: Edit

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Agreed, it's not a game-breaker but it's a consideration. Especially if X2 ships break the speed-32 limit. Then, they potentially see a GW or X1 ship move once, then get two hexes of movement to reply.

That's massively more useful than the best MY vs EY case where the MY ship just gets one hex to respond with. Often with MY vs. EY one ship isn't moving that impulse so its easy to see where either ship is going and respond. The EY ship isn't always at a disadvantage.

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By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 10:31 pm: Edit

When combined with 10-hex OLs, a X2 can control the range, deliver its OLs without taking the GW/X1 ship's OLs and us its ability to see when the GW/X1 ship is going to keep out of the enemy's 8-hex OL range.

While not automatically a game-breaker, it's a powerful advantage and it get more powerful the faster X2 ships are allowed to go.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, December 30, 2002 - 12:25 am: Edit

Since the X2 will by BPV be up against either 2 BCHs or a CCX + a DDX.

You've got to ask yourself whay kind of goons, ordered up Overloaded heavies!?!
When Standards could do the work!

Maybe they gambled that the X2 was going inside R8. That's like the Starcastling Fed gambling that an R8 overloaded shot is all he'll get against his Klingon opponent.

X1 and GW ships that fight X2 ships MUST find new tactics.

Simply complaining that the OLD tactic does not work is not reason enough to scrap X2 or even some of the funky aspects of X2.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Monday, December 30, 2002 - 08:57 am: Edit

R10 Overloads can be countered by willy 1X or GW captains. Being able to get an occasional R8 OL shot at the 2X ships rear shields. With speed and range jumping tactics. Or by other Tactics. (Kinda hard to discuss counter tactics for ships that haven't even been built yet.)

R12 OL's on the other hand will be nearly impossible to counter with R8 OL's. With Previously mentioned speed etc. tactics.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, December 30, 2002 - 03:27 pm: Edit

MJC,

I'm not suggesting srapping anything. I'm simply calling attention to a potentially serious advantage that high speed and extended overload range combine to give.

I'm not suggesting that it will make 2x ships unbeatable, just significantly harder to deal with even before all the nifty new weapons and such.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Monday, December 30, 2002 - 07:29 pm: Edit

R10 is the maximum you can realistically get away with. The X2 ship will be whipping along at 31 with a HET, so no amount of speed changes will let you catch it unawares.

As for bipping it at R12 with standard photons, forget it. You'll probably be facing a 1-shift, so standards will hit on a 1 (so 4 shots from a CX will probably give you 1 hit) and even 4 proxies will average only 8 damage. A narrow salvo won't break a shield, even backed up with 10 phasers.

A CX + DDX will do a bit better, of course, but the first pass will give you a trashed DDX and an XCA with a down shield.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, December 30, 2002 - 08:12 pm: Edit

Jim Davies,

Exactly.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, December 30, 2002 - 09:37 pm: Edit

Again it's quite dependant on other effects.

If the X2 R12 shots cast as much to arm as a doubel overload, then the X2 cruiser may find it'self unable to move faster than speed 25.

Then the X1 ships can closer and blast.

Nothing is stopping the X1 ships from firing just standards....the X1s should out number and therefore out gun the X2.

Remember also that the THROUGHPUT of the R8 Disruptor is 1.2 UIM and 1.0 non UIM...will that be worse at R12...unfortunately not.

An X1 ship may well be better off putting the power into shield reinforcement. Partilary if we are talking about a DDXX Vs a BCHX.

If the R12 Overloads drop the throughput to below 1 then the X1s actually have a reral advantage by generating up SSReo.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, December 30, 2002 - 10:34 pm: Edit

The throughput for X2 shups in OL range is not likely to drop below 1 even with a disr.

If all the X1 ship does is reinforce its shields, it's just a matter of time before it's picked apart. It's dealing with an opponent that will likley be faster, have weapons that hit harder, tke damage better and will likley have the EW edge. If X2 disrs have the capacitr feature, then it can hold standard, upgrade to OLs using battery power and easily run at 31. An X1 ship could do that if it had disr caps and r10 overloads. An X2 ship certainly could.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, December 30, 2002 - 10:58 pm: Edit

Why not.

It's already at 1.

If the R12 Overload feature is made at a simple cost of 5 points of power per shot, then the throughput drops to 0.8.

But the R12 overload could cost 6 points to arm!
So through put is a concern.


And then there is the BPV issue.

If my BCHX stops all your CCXX's Disruptor fire AND my other BCHX dishes up standards, my BCHX might not be as "dead in the water" as you claim for using SSReo.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 12:47 am: Edit

But if the BCHX is limited to speed 31 and the X2 CCXX isn't, how it is going to close to use its OL's?

The extended OL range gives X2 great ability to hit and run and I gurantee you that the BCHX that got hit has at least a crumpled shield and at worst some internal damage.

Now chase down the X2 ship who can, at will, outrun your BCHX's. You lacking a closed map, you are reduced to normal-load plinking and that isn't going to get you anywhere against the X2's shields. At least not fast enough.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 06:56 pm: Edit

MJC: I think you have a higher value for the BPV of an X2 ship than we do.

Whilst it is (approximately) true that enough dozens of MY or GW or X1 ships will be able to take on an X2 CC of any given power, I don't think we want to be playing that game.

Let's aim for an X2 ship worth about +20% more than an X1 ship. That way we'll have some idea what effects those rules will have.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 09:07 pm: Edit

I'ld like a 500 BPV CCXX but I'm quite okay with the idea that has been bandied around.

That a CXX should be the equal of a CX + a DDX.

That'll make it about 60% stronger...which is cool by me.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 10:06 pm: Edit

That may be excessive.

I'd be looking at something more like 300-320 for a CXX. If that's a CX + DDX, that's fine.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 10:11 pm: Edit

John - so you'd be looking for the other races to build ships comparable in power to the ISC CCX? Wouldn't need X2 tech for that IMO, just minor catching up by other races building new designs of similar capability to the ISC (who would lose their qualitative edge, since the rationale for it is gone).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 11:28 pm: Edit

Andrew,

Sure.

As an aside, I always thought the ISC CCX's BPV was a little on the high side. I never through it was worth 300.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 02:24 pm: Edit

Impactor Bolts

Klingon engineers managed to combine disruptor, drone and plasma technology, producing a weapon equally capable as a direct-fire and seeking weapon.

The Impactor bolt arms and hold identically to a X1 disruptor. When fired as a DF weap[on it uses the Disruptor chart with one alteration. it is incompatible with the UIM. DERFACS was built into the design.

When fired as a seeking weapon, it moves at plasma sabot speed (40) with an endurance of 32 impulses. To determine damage done by an impactor bolt in seeking mode, total up the number of impulses the bolt has been in flight and apply it as the range on the disruptor chart, find the damage and double it.

The current warhead strength of a seeking Impactor also functions as the damage required to kill it. Like plasmas, only phasers damage an impactor, but unlike plasma there is no 1:2 damage ratio. Like drones, seeking Impactors do not lose warhead strength when damaged. They always hit at full strength for their range. For most defensive purposes, seeking Impactors are otherwise treated as drones.

Impactors can operate a limited set of modules that change their charaeristics. Modules may be used in both direct-fire or seeking modes.

The basic module for the impactor is the damage module that converts the energy portion of the Impactor into an energy burst that hits like a disruptor. All starships are considered to have an unlimited supply of these modules.

An impactor can be fitted with a flare module that converts the damage energy into 32 impulses of fire-control static that inflictss 3 points of OECM on the target and gives it 3 points of ECM.

There is a polarized version of the flare that gives the ECM defense but does not inflict the OECM.

Other modules are possible.

Some limitation should be set for how many specialty modules a ship can carry, like drone reloads, but at this time I don't have one to suggest.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 09:00 pm: Edit

I'ld rather see all heavy weapons follow the same basic kind of development.

Basically I think there should be two kind of heavy weapon upgrade.

The first and simplest is the basis light increase in damage coupled with an R10 overload distance.

The second is two different overload functions that the player chooses ( through the value of the power placed in E.A. ) be either a standard overload damage with the overload range limit being extended or ( but not both at the same time ) an R8 limited shot that inflict the usual amount increase in damage over the basic overload.

The the Weapons would look as follows.

PHOTONS
Photons can fire X1 Fast loads for 8 or 12 point warheads ( or proxies ) with an R8 limit.
Or they can be loaded over two turns for a 20 point warhead (max ) with a an R10 limit.
Or they can be loaded over three turns for a 24 point warhead (max) with an R10 limit.
The should probably also be able to fire proximity-overload mode in both the 5-8 (Fast load) and 5-8 & 9-10 ranges (all other).

DISRUPTORS
Disruptors should be able to fire standards and overloads as per normal.
They should also have an overload that inflict the usual double standard damage out to R12, with a slight increase in the UIM burnout chances ( because of the larger amount of current involved ) and a cost of 6 points of damage ( Possibly have a holding cost ).
Or they could fire a massive quadrupple standard damage ( double overload ) shot that has an R8 limit and costs a massive 10 points of energy and can't be held.

FUSION BEAMS
Fussions should have the regular shot, overload and suicide overload.
But it should also be able to fire a standard overload shot out to R12 ( although R17 wouldn't make much difference ) that costs 6 points of power to arm.
It should also be able to fire a massive suicide overload for tripople the standard damage, that costs 10 points to arm and has an R8 limit.

HELLBORES
Hellbore should be able to fire standard and overload and rapid standards.
It should also be able to fire a shot that requires 6+6 power ( a fast load standard that wasn't fired could be converted to one of these through the adding of the nes 6 points of power ) that fires double the standard damage and has an R10 limit.

PPDs
PPDs will have standard and fast loaded capasities and also be able to overload ( with an R10 range limit ) by powering 8 power on the first turn and 8 on the second for a total of 8 pulses in an attack.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 02:04 am: Edit

MJC,

That's a lot of stuff for just the disruptor topic. R12 OLs are potential game-breakers.

I like Loren's idea of the Kzintis dusting off the Disruptor cannon and Heel Nipper as a drone module.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 09:15 am: Edit

Let's just look at R12 Overloads.

An R5-8 Overloaded disruptor has a through put...without UIM of 1.0

If we paid four points of power for an R12 disruptor shot, ( which can't use UIM by default ) we would also have a throughput of 1.0 !

BUT!!!

We are infact paying 6 points of power for the privelage, giving us a through put of 0.666!

The CCXX is better off placing that power into S.S.Reo!


The Advantage of having a an R123 overload is only when fighting lots of smaller oppoents and thus breaching their limited BTTY based S.S.Reo and scoring actual sheild hits.
Overloaded R12 shots are not going to breach the sheild of a B10 or DNX, and turning your rear shield against the enemy's massive array of standard ( being one big ship or many small ships ) could breach your shield quite easily.

Now couple it with a through put of 3 from the phasers at R2 and we could have a problem.

Let's actually playtest the R12 overloads before we claim that it must be a potential game breaker.

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and a cost of 6 points of damage ( Possibly have a holding cost ).

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That's a lot of stuff for just the disruptor topic.

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By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 01:55 pm: Edit

Sorry.

R12 overloads are, as far as I'm concerned, a non-starter.

I'm leery of R10, but I'll consider THAT.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 02:18 pm: Edit

Agreed. I also agree that Loren hit on a stroke of brilliance with the disruptor cannon and heel-nippers. It makes sense, it's interesting, and it won't break the game. Darn good call, dude!r