Cfant,

The extra warhead energy is negotiable.

the concept came from the fact that the feds would need to divert some of the photon's arming energy into whatever hyper-warp slingshot that shoots the topr at its target. The gorn version, which is simply carried along for the ride, doesn't need to be propelled anywhere so that energy can go into a slightly improved warhead. since I wanted to keep it simple I just added 2 points. It could also be added only if the full-4 warp were paid. I considered that also.

Or it can be dropped. Like I say, it's negotiable.

I threw the "resolves as a separate volley" in there because plasma normally gets some excellent power-to-damage ratios. The photon's 2:1 ration looked pretty weenie so I compensated with "separate volley". I intended a Type-M photon plasma to stand about equal to a type-S cannister plasma.

Remember also that photon-plasma was written as a Gorn-only weapon. X-Gorns don't field too many L or F torps so allowing them to use photon plasma isn't all that unbalancing. Now, hand that weapon to the ISC and it's a different story. We wouldn't want all those lateral L-torps to be photon-plasmas. It's be too much.

I did consider a limited 2-pt photon plasma option for L and F torps. I'd allow a G-torp (if there's such a thing as a G-torp in X2) to use the full 8-10 pt photon, though. something about being able to shotgun and envelop that makes it the weeniest "big" torp.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 02:34 am: Edit

You could say that the energy used to drive the normal photon was used to protect it from the plasma.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 02:00 pm: Edit

Sure. OK, knock the +2 warhead off the design spec.

Any objections to allowing the gorns a 5-pt standard warhead? Adding a simple +10 damage makes life so much easier on the players who might end up using it....

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 02:21 pm: Edit

How about the size of the weapon? A P-S is about 2/3 of a space...what would this change do to that?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 03:02 pm: Edit

The photon injector would basically keep the weapon from shrinking. On one side we have something new, on the other we're *defining* new, revolutionary tech. In my mind, it's a push so the weapon stays the same size.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 03:18 pm: Edit

Proximity fused plasma bolts? -2 to hit, 1/4 warhead damage. Would have to be coupled with faster loading to work.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 03:45 pm: Edit

Lest we leave the Roms out of the fun,

The type-T plasma

Even with the strides made with X2 technology, Romulan engineers were not able to upgrade their X1 ship S-torp mounts to M-torps. They did come up with an enhanced S-torp launcher whose plasma could hold M-torp strength for a short distance before reverting to S-torp strength. The plasma-T proved initially unpopular with romulan crews until its endurance on long runs to target proved a close match for the M.

The T-torp arms for 2-2-5 and can be mounted on SC4 hulls.

Range	1-5	6-15	16-20	21-25	26-28	29	30
Warhead	40	30	22	15	10	5	1

The Type Z-Plasma

As the Plasma-R entered general service in Romulan X2 ships, the Romulan Senate once again renewed its search for a practical plasma torpedo capable of a still-greater damage potential. The advancements in shielding and launcher design that put R-torps in general service also provided the crucial breakthrough The romulans were waiting for. The Plasma-Z fulfilled over 100 years of frustrated Romulan research and set a new standard for terror among the Romulan's foes.

The Plasma-Z proved so enormous and it's shock potential so strong that only bases and SC-2 ships could safely mount the weapon, where it replaced a R+T combination.

Arming cycle: 3-3-7

Range	1-10	11-20	21-25	26-30	31-35	36-38	39	40
Damage	80	60	40	30	20	10	5	1

The one SC3 ship to mount a Z-plasma was the single KEX that survived to the X2 time period. It was converted to X2 as a showpiece of Romulan past and present melding together. Its EY-era R-plasma bay was (barely) cabable of fitting in a Z-torp. (even the bay for a GW-era R-torp would be too small) The KEXX's armored hull handled the shock of plasma launch far better than modern Romulan shipwrights expected. Simulations predicted the ship's hull would suffer from terrible shock problems each time the ship launched a full-on Z-torp. Nothing proved further from the truth.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 04:16 pm: Edit

If you accept the premise suggested in (X0.0) that new ship designs (read new hulls) are what allowed ships to move beyond X1 tech then the thought of a KE(XR) or KE(X2) is an oxymoron.

It would be fun to find some way for seeking plasmas to work in an environment where everyone can easily maintain a battle speed of 31. On an open map this gets real bad. Upgrading the warhead is easy but not very satisfying IMO.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 02:06 pm: Edit

Tos,

For X2, I'm willing to entertain debate. It's a big quantum jump over X1.

X1R is still X1 tech, just production X1. The ability to make a KEX says that it could receive the refits necessary to stay current through X1R.

A single otherwise-ineligible ship could be converted to X2 under the WYN "throw-lots-of-money-at-the-hull" option which could be envoked for a signle ship whose purpose is public relations, but not a class of ships. It'd probably be an inefficient conversion, but then the KEX was an inefficient conversion.

Besides, since the first-gen Rom has been through almost every age of SFB, it seems kind of apporpos that one ship make it into X2, even if it doesn't entirely make sense.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 01:04 pm: Edit

JT: I agree. By the X2 era, the Romulan Warbird will have served for 150+ years.

It's tradition that at least one Warbird remain in service to get an X2 upgrade.

But I wouldn't touch the R torp, even if it is becoming outclassed.

When you're dealing with a 150-year-old ship, the blueprints have probably been lost, and a lot of the inner workings of how a Y45 R-torp were built are probably lost. They can still operate it, but can't engineer it.

The crewmen in the torpedo room are literaly to the point of "This is how my grandfather did it, and his grandfather before him." And since we know from TOS that Romulans put women on their starships (The episode where Spock seduces the Romulan commander), operating that R-torp may be a family secret. No sense letting that expertise go to waste. Just keep them off the bridge and out of the engine rooms (where all the new stuff is).

The front half of the Warbird hasn't been changed since the WB got it's 4 ph-1s. Armor, 4 ph-1, 6 C Hull, 6 Batt, 2 Bridge, and 1 R-torp.

Now if the engine block of a K7X can mount an M-torp and an S-torp, the Romulans might be able to figure a way to mount similar engines on the KEXX....

As to what belongs on a 3rd-gen X2 ship, someone else can figure that out.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 04:46 pm: Edit

I've moved a lot of my last post to The Proposals Board.

For this thread (X2 Plasma), I only say this:

At least 1 SSD for a Warbird -> KEX -> X2 tech.

Don't change the old sections (armor, R-torp, 6 batts, 6 hull, 2 bridge).

I'm all for upgrading the engines, engine-mounted torpedo launchers, shields, and other systems.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 05:15 pm: Edit

I'd like to see it.

Given rom lifespans, it might just be "how my father did it", sometimes "grandfather."

In X2, there might be a very, very old admiral who remembers being a green junior officer on a EY warbird.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 07:39 pm: Edit

It's under Proposals Board / New Rules / Legendary Warbird R-torp Engineer

That very old admiral might have spent his entire career on the same ship.

Junior officer on Warbird
Mid-level officer on a War Eagle
Captain of a King Eagle
Admiral with a KEX for a flagship

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 09:30 pm: Edit

That would mean he fought in the Imperialist side of the Civil War. IIRC, only Rolandus' forces built KEX's.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 10:43 pm: Edit

Well I don't know. You're probably right. I was just writing my comments to "There should be an X2 Warbird", and I had an oddball idea. So I put it in the Proposals Board. I didn't read up on the History before posting.

By Mark James Hugh Norman (Mnorman) on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 06:52 am: Edit

With romulan ships, I think that the X2 ships should be based on the Eagle series ships, rather than the Hawk series ships as the Hawk series ahips were introduced in a hurry, and so the Romulans probably actually prefer the design of Eagle-type ships. this would of course mean a totally new design of Warbird, not an upgraded EY ship. Of course one way to do this would be to have a fleet of scaled-down Condor-type ships.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 10:39 am: Edit

Of everyone the Romulan economy might be the worst off. They won't have the excess ship problems that other races have

I'd like to explore the mini-Condor idea.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 04:23 pm: Edit

MJHM,

The Hawk series was planned out resonably carefully. I seriously doubt the Romulans would backtrack to the first-gen series.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 09:09 pm: Edit

They might not backtrack in large numbers, but I don't think it's unreasonable that ONE of them survived.

After getting lost for 150 years on its sublight mission, the Lost Patrol returns home for a much needed overhaul.

And what an overhaul it's going to be

By Mark James Hugh Norman (Mnorman) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 07:37 am: Edit

I wasn't thinking of going right back to a precisely first-generation ship, but going back to the same style of ship, i.e. one enormous plasma, backed-up by a few small ones. I personally thing that Hawks look dreadful, and that a mini-condor (which is actually what I was suggesting), looks more like what I would expect from the Romulans.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Eagle) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 12:36 pm: Edit

Myself I like the Kestrel ships best, Eagle series second...

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 05:07 pm: Edit

MJHM,

Don't hold your breath. the more kinds of plasma give flexibility. Also one plasma would beed to be VERY huge. The Z-torp I proposed on this forum (check the archives) is about a week ago is as big as plasma would probably get.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 05:59 pm: Edit

Somebody around here....Mike Raper maybe, had an SSD of a Cruiser that looked like a mini Condor.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 06:11 pm: Edit

I still have it somewhere...have to dig it up.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 06:32 pm: Edit

Chris, I believe that would be me. I proposed it as a failed prototype last year in the R9 thread:

(R4.__) ROMULAN MARTIAL EAGLE (ME): In their search for a new heavy cruiser, the Romulans considered other alternatives before settling on the Firehawk (R4.38). The first attempt to produce a heavy cruiser resulted in the Martial Eagle, a design derived from the workhorse War Eagle cruiser. Two ships were begun in Y168, but construction was halted when the Sparrowhawk began to prove the effectiveness of modular design. The ships were never completed.

The hull of the Martial Eagle, while functionally similar in War Eagle, was in fact a total redesign. The significant enlargement of the ship's hull was made possible by deleting the armor from the original design. As the armor on existing ships could not be easily removed, all Martial Eagles would have been new construction.

The Firehawk's greater adaptability and higher potential for future growth made it far more attractive. However, the enlarged engines developed for the Martial Eagle were used on the less radical King Eagle design that appeared in Y169. The hull form of the Martial Eagle also inspired the much larger, and much more successful, Condor Dreadnought, which first appeared in Y170. Unlike the other Eagle class ships, the Martial Eagle could not land on planets. The ship's poor turn mode could not be improved.

A note on the name: The Martial Eagle is the largest eagle in Africa. Weighing in at 14 pounds, they are powerful enough to routinely prey on animals as large as the Impala.