Archive through January 23, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: OLD X2 FOLDER: X2 ph-1: Archive through January 23, 2003
By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 11:51 am: Edit

I agree. I've seen Loren's new proposal, and it's the best one so far. It isn't over the top, but it is a degree better than the P1.

Loren, what about repair cost?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 12:40 pm: Edit

Cost of repair for Phasers on an X2 ship:
Ph-V 6
Ph-1 4
Ph-2 3
Ph-6 2
Ph-3 2
Ph-G2 8


A Ph-V can be under repaired as a Ph-1, Ph-2, Ph-6 or a Ph-3.
A Ph-1 can be under repaired as a Ph-2, Ph-6 or Ph-3.

Personally I would like to eliminat the Ph-2 and Ph-3 entirely form X2.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 12:47 pm: Edit

Phaser-VB(1)
Idea Proposed by John Trauger and first draft by Mike Raper. Modified by Loren Knight.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 12:50 pm: Edit

BTW, with I do see the Ph-1 becomming the Ph-2 analog in X2, and so I can except this phaser in a defence roll with long range capabilities.

However, the new Ph-6 Defence Phaser should in no way have a very long range. It makes no sense to me to do that. If the Ph-6 is to be a Ph-3 analog the it's max range should be 15 (maybe 22 at the total maximum), and should be darn near worthless at those ranges.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 12:54 pm: Edit

I'd say max range 20. You can stay outside P3 range and still shoot if you need to.

Max damage 5-6 at close range, doing only 1 at range 20.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 12:57 pm: Edit

Good point. I like that. Max R20.

Though I could live with R15 too. I don't know why anyone would want to be defending themselves with Point Defence Phasers at that range anyway. Better to save the power except where you and your enemy are both severly crippled and it's your last phaser.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 01:01 pm: Edit

which is why it should be 20 :)

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 09:26 pm: Edit

Quote:

I still think pre-Xork X2 ships should have very few heavy phasers (say equal to the HW suite) to leave room for expansion when the Xorks arrive.

A Frigate might have a heavy phaser FH/LS/RS at first and some moderate phasers for defense. When the Xorks arrive some of the moderate phasers get upgraded to heavy phasers. So start at 3H/4L and end at 5H/2L. Upguns the ship without adding boxes.



Or perhaps the Ph-5 is the first one and after the Xork invasion the X2s get a Ph-6 refit which is even more powerful...can we build X2s to have a refit?

Quote:

This new proposal of the Ph-VB(1) is not that heavy. It will do better but it's more of an improved weapon. I can see it being the standard. In X2 I can see the Ph-1 actually be ing an improved weapon as well. Being slightly smaller and easier to maintain. This would be reflected in the game but would explain why it becomes the new defence phaser. It can be repaired as a Ph-2 as well. Can fire as two Ph-3s and contributes two cap. points to the ship. It's a good combo I think.



I'ld rather say the the X2Ph-1 was improved over the X1Ph-1.
What about either or, X2Ph-1s have tripple caps, X2Ph-1s have Rapid pulse as Ph-2s ( for drone defense ).
We can mix and match in the design process to see what creates game balance.

Quote:

I agree. I've seen Loren's new proposal, and it's the best one so far. It isn't over the top, but it is a degree better than the P1.



If it's marginal over the Ph-1 then we may need a hellphaser as a refit to deal with the Xorks, or perhaps the Xorks will be pusseys

Quote:

Personally I would like to eliminat the Ph-2 and Ph-3 entirely form X2.



Cheap repairs are a good thing.

Quote:

BTW, with I do see the Ph-1 becomming the Ph-2 analog in X2, and so I can except this phaser in a defence roll with long range capabilities.

However, the new Ph-6 Defence Phaser should in no way have a very long range. It makes no sense to me to do that. If the Ph-6 is to be a Ph-3 analog the it's max range should be 15 (maybe 22 at the total maximum), and should be darn near worthless at those ranges.



I think a R15 end of the table would be handy...it gives the Ph-G2 a bit of reach...20 at the minimum, but 25 is nice, because it'll be more akin to the more powerful offensive weapons who's ends of table are at 50 and 75 respectively, so it can be said that finally a 0.5 power, 1/2 size phaser has finnally gotten close to the range of the old offensive phasers; even if only for 1 point of damage at R1, which is my hope.

Speaking of the Ph-G2.
How about this.
It can fire 4 Ph-1 shots for 0.25 points of power each, but since it begins to overheat it can't fire five shhots.
Or it can fire 5 Ph-2 shots for 0.2 points of power each.
The player selects when he fires the first Ph-1 shot ( with each preceeding Ph-2 shot that round counting as a Ph-1 shot on a one for one basis ).
In this way we get an effective defensive range of the Ph-G2 of 4 hexes which means you can defend against the possible ( but highly unlikely ) R4-0 jump.


Quote:

Good point. I like that. Max R20.

Though I could live with R15 too. I don't know why anyone would want to be defending themselves with Point Defence Phasers at that range anyway. Better to save the power except where you and your enemy are both severly crippled and it's your last phaser.



[Coughs behind fist]
Stinger IVs

They would like to have room to peck at long range and then turn around before that X2 cruiser gets them into rapid pulse range...thank youy very much.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 09:46 pm: Edit

Quote:

It can fire 4 Ph-1 shots for 0.25 points of power each, but since it begins to overheat it can't fire five shots.



You're kidding. A gatling phaser-1, that costs one point to fire four phaser-1 shots? Why would I want or need anything else? Talk about drone immunity!

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 09:46 pm: Edit

Quote:

can we build X2s to have a refit?



If the X2 ships come out in Y205, and the Xorks don't invade until Y215, then I don't see how there couldn't be some sort of Xork-busting refit in Y220-Y225.

Whether it's a refit, or a new class of X2 ships, or a new tech level is up in the air.

As I posted in the timeline thread, since we have no idea what a Xork ship looks like, it's hard to design anything for the Xork Invasion Period.

Quote:

What about either or, X2Ph-1s have tripple caps, X2Ph-1s have Rapid pulse as Ph-2s ( for drone defense ).



Triple caps? yuk. You'll never have to refil them. No tactical decisions.

Rapid pulse ph-2? ok. Depends on what the drones look like.

I also proposed a pair of phasers, similar to Loren's, but tweaked to handle 6 point drones.
"Average damage" is great for fighting ships, but phasers vs. drones depends on "chance in 6 to score X or better" where X is the typical drone damage rating.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 09:57 pm: Edit

We should do a galing P-6. If the P-6 is Tos Range-15 P-2 so be it...

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 10:11 pm: Edit

I agree the Ph-GII should be based on what ever the Ph-6 is.
On another note:
Ph-VB1 can fire as a Ph-1 for only one point. Since the Ph-VB1 arms for 1.5 the cap holds three. So, if the X2 cruiser wants to go into major defensive mode it can for three turns at top speed. This is a choice by the player and will provide for a great veriaty of tactics I think. With three point caps you can fire 1xPh-V, 1xPh-1 and 1xPh-6(three turns) or 3xPh-1s or six Ph-3 (in three turns) or just two Ph-Vs(two turns), to name a few of the various options. Though not a lot more powerful than the Ph-1 it has other advantages. It's range curve is better too. At R8 it is quite effective making R8 alphas the basic tactic of the era. But you could fight another way. You can put thought into it. My previous Ph-V didn't reqire much in the way of thinking. Those range brackets were designed for a stationary unit. Fast moving ships shouldn't get that benifit.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 10:21 pm: Edit

Quote:

You're kidding. A gatling phaser-1, that costs one point to fire four phaser-1 shots? Why would I want or need anything else? Talk about drone immunity!



Yeah, I'ld just rather have the X2 defensive phaser and therefore the X2 gat to have a damage result at R4 on a roll of 6.

I just have a hunch it'll be needed, for the same reason you can generate 1 point of damage with a Ph-3 at R2 on a roll of 6.

Quote:

If the X2 ships come out in Y205, and the Xorks don't invade until Y215, then I don't see how there couldn't be some sort of Xork-busting refit in Y220-Y225.

Whether it's a refit, or a new class of X2 ships, or a new tech level is up in the air.

As I posted in the timeline thread, since we have no idea what a Xork ship looks like, it's hard to design anything for the Xork Invasion Period.



Yeah, perhaps a change form a Megaphaser derived main phaser to a Ph-4 derived main phaser would be the entirity of that refit.

Quote:

Triple caps? yuk. You'll never have to refil them. No tactical decisions.



Not really, there are several options.

1) A Bunch of Ph-5s will eat into the Ph-1 tripple caps, so eventually you will run out of Cap power.
2) Caps-to-SSReo will drain caps rather quickly meaning there is a tactical limitation.

Quote:

Rapid pulse ph-2? ok. Depends on what the drones look like.



Agreed.


Quote:

We should do a galing P-6. If the P-6 is Tos Range-15 P-2 so be it...



Again we really need atleast 1 point of damage being inflicted at R4 on a roll of 6, but I'm willing to see what playtesting yeilds.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 10:30 pm: Edit

Quote:

1) A Bunch of Ph-5s will eat into the Ph-1 tripple caps, so eventually you will run out of Cap power.



I thought by "triple caps" you meant a capcacitor that could fire every ph-5 on the ship 3 times without recharging.

If a ph-5 costs 1.5 power, and a cap hold 3 per ph-5, I have no problem with that.


Is anyone working on an integrated proposal that takes all of this into consideration, or is everyone looking at 1 or 2 pieces right now?

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 10:39 pm: Edit

hehe.........piecemeal is such an interesting way to fly.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 11:19 pm: Edit

"can we build X2s to have a refit?"
I'd rather avoid having a phaser refit that would require a new chart. It would clutter the SSD.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 11:29 pm: Edit

We can build ina refit for those who use P-1s on their ships to start with and upgrade to P-5's later...

Also tweak the tech a little as time goes on.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 11:29 pm: Edit

We can build ina refit for those who use P-1s on their ships to start with and upgrade to P-5's later...

Also tweak the tech a little as time goes on.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 11:49 pm: Edit

Quote:

I thought by "triple caps" you meant a capcacitor that could fire every ph-5 on the ship 3 times without recharging.

If a ph-5 costs 1.5 power, and a cap hold 3 per ph-5, I have no problem with that.



No I meant Ph-1s with 3 point caps, being sucked up by Ph-5s as the battle draws on.


Quote:

"can we build X2s to have a refit?"
I'd rather avoid having a phaser refit that would require a new chart. It would clutter the SSD.



Yeah and the BPV of the refit would be about 400 points.
I think we need to find out what the Xorks look like before we entertain what the X2 vessel would look like, unless we leave X2 cruisers out of X2 and then say that only the Cruisers are large enough to opperate the Ph-4Jr phasers that will come out with the cruisers in the Xork book, or something like that.
Unless SVC thinks it' setter to build the X2 cruisers and then design the Xorks to fit them.

Quote:

We can build ina refit for those who use P-1s on their ships to start with and upgrade to P-5's later...

Also tweak the tech a little as time goes on.



It really depends on how HARDCORE the Xorks are.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 12:35 am: Edit

Boy it's hard to speculate about the Xorks, huh? I mean, even if you knew SVC really well he may pull out a zinger that is out of what you think his character may be.

So what do we know...

Well, they come from the north and pretty far. They have a fairly vast empire. They will invade and are rumered to be "Pretty nasty".

The questions: What kind of ship could control an empire. Was their sector easy to conquer with only less advanced races the only between them and domiation? Or did they beat down equally and in some cases more advanced civilizations. Their supposed to be "Pretty Nasty" so perhaps the latter. Are they average fighting ships but ruthless fighters? If they are then why didn't the Klingons or the Romulans take over the Alpha sector.

I been thinking about this a bit and have come up with few things I expect to see.
1) The ship are durable.
2) They are maneuverable.
3) They will have good resources from their Empire. Though it will have to travel a long way but not as long as the Andromedans.
4) I expect to see them in large numbers. Perhaps one on one they will be beatable but one on one would be very rare.

They will no doubt have good or better than good heavy weapons and something that us Alphas can't do.

What I don't expect to see is an onslaught of monster ships with massive quantities of energy and weapons.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 01:11 am: Edit

We shouldn't be building our first X2 ships to fight the Xorks anyway.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 02:21 am: Edit

Yup.

One side point I was trying to make was we can proceed with X2 design with out knowing any thing else. When we do know more the new stuff will come out then as I should be. What the first X2 is is what will carry the war with the Xorks for the first module anyway.

No need to depend on what the Xorks will be like. I guess I should have just said that to begin with but I was also having fun speculating.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 02:49 am: Edit

okay, so there will be a phaser refit for some of the vessels, maybe, which may or may not need to be in X2 ( may it'll be the bulk of X2R ).

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 07:41 pm: Edit

Loren, I think we've established in the timeline that Y205 is X2, but Galactics only.

The Xorks don't arrive until Y215 (Y225?). To expect the X2 ships to be optimized to fighting them doesn't make sense.

I say right now we ignore the Xorks and the Xork era completely until after someone figures out what they are.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 08:07 pm: Edit

Yup.

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