Archive through May 07, 2012

Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: Star Fleet Battles Online: Tournaments: SFBOL World League 2: Archive through May 07, 2012
By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 12:30 am: Edit

If teams are only playing within their pool, division and conference tiebreakers would have no meaning. But common games, strength of victory and strength of schedule would all work pretty well. IMO strength of victory is better than strength of schedule and I would take it over common games as well for WL.

Andy, are you proposing matches of individuals based on teams rather than whole teams against whole teams (i.e. you play one player from Action Cats, Avengers and Orion Bikini while Scott plays someone from Plasma Surprise, New Jersey and SWA?)

I also hope for 12 - there were 12 last year, so it could happen.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 02:58 am: Edit

Sheap, yes that is the easiest way to set it up when there are 10 teams.

I don't know how you do strength of victory. If every match was played out until one ship exploded, you could do some sort of scoring based on the condition of the survivor, or how quickly the match was ended. But most games end with a concession. And really, short of having the same set of judges watching each match and voting on the strength of victory, I don't think any scoring system is going to yield satisfactory results. Maybe you played perfectly, and I played terribly, and I conceded, even though you have more internal damage, because my position was so bad. Maybe we played a very close match, but an unlucky die roll snowballed over a few impulses, and the game ended with my ship destroyed, and yours with only a dozen ints. Which is the stronger victory?

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 04:58 am: Edit

Strength of victory means the record of the opponents you defeated, not by how much, which would be margin of victory. This is different from strength of schedule, which is the overall record of everyone you played, not just the ones you defeated. I agree that margin of victory (or some sort of total points thing) wouldn't be meaningful in the SFB tournament environment.

Strength of schedule effectively gives you credit for losing, if the opponent that beat you happened to be good. Strength of victory only gives you credit for the games you won.

On the individual matchup thing, just making sure I understood what you were proposing. I can't poke holes in the concept but it also wasn't immediately obvious to me how to generate the schedule.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 09:26 am: Edit

>>I don't know how you do strength of victory. If every match was played out until one ship exploded, you could do some sort of scoring based on the condition of the survivor, or how quickly the match was ended.>>

Strength of Schedule is something along the lines of if two teams are tied, you then do a tie breaker where you get a point for each of your opponent's wins (i.e. if Opponent A was 1-2, you get 1 point; if Opponent B was 2-1, you get 2 points; if opponent C was 3-0, you get 3 points?). I've never actually done this, but from what I understand, it is how it works.

So your team's 9 games are scored out like this, and the side with the higher tie breaker score advances. The formula above does, in fact, indicate that losing to someone (who went 3-0, killing you) is worth more for tie breaking than beating someone who otherwise went 2-1. So it might need some shaking out.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 11:28 am: Edit

So with the yet to be fully formed Team New Jersey, we are hovering at 10. We might be able to get 2 more teams. I'm reluctant to dragoon people for teams, as having 12 convenient teams is nice and all, but if the majority of the last two teams aren't going to play most of their games (which happened last year), I'd rather just make it work with 10.

If there *are* 6 more people out there who want to play and commit to the event, I'd love to have them. But I'm not going to cajole folks in who aren't really invested.

Yeah, now that I remember it, the year I did 10 teams, I had to have the one "cross pool" match up that it took me a really long time to figure out was necessary. And as such, almost made me insane.

In the name of full disclosure, I'm playing Gorn this year.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 09:14 pm: Edit

If Andy's individual match thing works, and you don't hate it, I'd support it. It still preserves the "everybody plays everybody else" thing, while not giving a cross pool match to only two out of ten teams (Everybody has to play cross-pool games). It's a more uniform schedule.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 08:21 pm: Edit

So if we end up with 10 teams (which, at this point, seems not unlikely), we can go with Andy's plan, which is every team plays 9 games, which is one game against every team. Which works nicely. Which would look something like:

A1 vs B1
A1 vs C1
A1 vs D1

A2 vs E1
A2 vs F1
A2 vs G1

A3 vs H1
A3 vs I1
A3 vs J1

Which'll be kind of a pain to figure out, but I'm sure I can make it work. In terms of tie breakers, I'll go with Strength of Victory (as it seems more sensible than Strength of Schedule)--for each win you have, you get 2 points for beating someone who went 2-1, 1 point for beating someone 1-2, and 0 points for beating someone who went 0-3, which will be the tie breaking point.

But then, maybe 2 more teams will show up by Sunday.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 08:49 pm: Edit

Have you decided how many playoff spots there will be assuming ten teams?

Also, you should probably have a second tiebreaker in mind if SoV happens to also tie. I'd recommend record within the pool, strength of schedule, or SUDDEN DIE. :)

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 09:04 pm: Edit

Well, with 10 teams, I'd go with a top 4 for single elimination.

I figure when the regular tie breaker fails, we can always have SUDDEN DEATH!, 'cause, ya know, who doesn't like that?

By Andrew J. Koch (Droid) on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 07:46 am: Edit

I don't.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 04:14 pm: Edit

Yes you do Andy, yes you do.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 07:43 pm: Edit

Well, if all three of us go 3-0...

By Eric Phillips (Ericphillips) on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 08:52 pm: Edit

I hate sudden death, well, since my FL Panthers were kicked out of the NHL playoffs last week in the 2nd overtime period.

By Andrew J. Koch (Droid) on Wednesday, May 02, 2012 - 08:38 pm: Edit

Peter,
I have sent maybe 5 e mails to you in the last few weeks, with nary a response. Apparently your computer has taken a burn to me.

I am getting your e mails, and I have sent you my ship selection twice. I will now provide my ship selection here. Encrypted of course, so as not to tip off our foes. As follows : LRAYN. Use your decoder ring, and please check your junk box.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 08:39 am: Edit

Hrm. Yeah, I haven't seen most of those. But I did get two just now that I responded to. Something is clearly wonky. Read the e-mails I just sent.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 08:41 am: Edit

We are now officially at:

-Team Colorado
-Team Action Cats
-Team Plasma Surprise
-Team Avengers
-Team Alien Demon Battalion
-Half of Team Orion Bikini Team
-Team Spontaneous Combustion
-Team Deception
-Team SWA
-Team The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly (formerly Team New Jersey)

So we are holding strong at 10. Although I still need full info from Orion Bikini Team.

By Ron Brimeyer (Captainron) on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 06:29 pm: Edit

Peter,

I will send Ken my ship selection. I believe he is still our team captain.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 09:14 am: Edit

Ok. We are now officially stopping at 10 teams. I have, IIRC, all correct information from all 10 teams. Lemme go check...Yep. All ship choices turned in.

So with 10 teams, there will be 1 pool (i.e. everyone). Each player will play 1 player from each of the other 9 teams. Top 4 teams by points (3 for win, 1 for loss, 0 for no show) will advance to a final, single elimination (by team) tree. Ties will be broken by "Strength of Victory" tie breaker (you get 2 points for each victory over an opponent who is 2-1, 1 point for each victory over an opponent who is 1-2, 0 points for each victory over an opponent who is 0-3), and the the case of a second level of tie breaking (which I hope isn't needed), there will be SUDDEN DEATH!.

I figure 2 months for the initial round is reasonable, so we'll say that the dead line for everyone to play their first 3 games will be two months from tomorrow, give or take, which looks like Monday, July 9th (so as to facilitate that last weekend for play).

I'll the first round matchups later tonight.

By Bill Schoeller (Bigbadbill) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 10:28 am: Edit

Normally we have 2 weeks per game. 2 months will make it tough to get all 9 matches complete that we each must play. I will be on vacation from June 23- July 15, so I will have 1 and a half months to get my matches complete.

I will still try to complete all matches in wahtever time frame I am given of course.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 10:37 am: Edit

Ah. I clearly wrote something that is easy to misunderstand. And possibly outright incorrect.

Everyone is playing three games. Not nine. Lemme go fix that up there.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 10:40 am: Edit

Crap. Hour is up. Lemme repost with the appropriate sentence involved:

Ok. We are now officially stopping at 10 teams. I have, IIRC, all correct information from all 10 teams. Lemme go check...Yep. All ship choices turned in.

So with 10 teams, there will be 1 pool (i.e. everyone). Each player will play 3 games, 1 player from each of 3 other teams. Each team will play a game vs each of the other 9 teams (9 games total per team). Top 4 teams by points (3 for win, 1 for loss, 0 for no show) will advance to a final, single elimination (by team) tree. Ties will be broken by "Strength of Victory" tie breaker (you get 2 points for each victory over an opponent who is 2-1, 1 point for each victory over an opponent who is 1-2, 0 points for each victory over an opponent who is 0-3), and the the case of a second level of tie breaking (which I hope isn't needed), there will be SUDDEN DEATH!.

I figure 2 months for the initial round is reasonable, so we'll say that the dead line for everyone to play their first 3 games will be two months from tomorrow, give or take, which looks like Monday, July 9th (so as to facilitate that last weekend for play).

I'll the first round matchups later tonight.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 08:52 pm: Edit

Well, ok. So I didn't get the matches set yet. It took me the last hour just to get the teams put into the Round Robin page:

http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/WLRoundRobin.html

The teams were arranged randomly (go random.org!) and then players arranged by last name, alphabetically. I'll come up with a reasonable plan for assigning individual matches tomorrow. Hopefully I'll get the matches up by tomorrow night.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 09:04 pm: Edit

So just for entertainment purposes, the ships in play:

GBS: 7
FED: 4
LYR: 4
ZIN: 3
HYD: 3
WAX: 3
GRN: 2
KLI: 2
TFH: 1
RKR: 1

So 7x Sharks. That is going to make avoiding civil wars rough. No Tholians, Orions, or ISC. Only 2x Romulans. Unsurprisingly, no TKE, LDR, or SEL. Or Andro. Well, we'll see what happens.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 10:27 pm: Edit

Well, if I'd known there would be so many D&D ships I would have taken the Eagle :) Almost did anyway, but just barely decided against it...

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 05:04 pm: Edit

Well, the wheels are in motion. I just built a lovely excel matrix to distribute players by virtue of A1, B1, C1, etc (I don't actually know who those are yet). At some point in the near future, I'll distribute folks by virtue of their alpha numeric code into the round robin tree, and then adjust for civil wars as needed (by swapping with teammates). And then hopefully, it will all just work!

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