Archive through August 01, 2012
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Galactic Conquest:
GC Rules Proposals:
New rule ideas:
Archive through August 01, 2012
Charles- you are correct. You can not do a strike on segment 10 of turn A, and segment 1 of turn B. You could do 12/4.
Roy- forget 48xMFGB. Think 48xHBM- that is 48*6- nearly 300 heavy bombers. John Stiff will never come near one of my systems again (at least any named J'Bar). :-)
I like it
I think there should be extra cost though, like with DB capability. If you want that type of strength, you should have to pay for it.
Interesting.
If an opponent ops to stage his forces one hex away from a system for a system assault. Then the defender can CV strike I or II on that turn with all his fighters/bombers. Then replinish them on Seg 0 so the attacker will have to fight all of them all over again the next turn when he assaults. You basically have twice the number of fighters for defense. The only way around that is to stage two hexes distance, but then your limited to only one AM.
On another note. What about the opponents fighters, will they be able to intercept enemy CV Strike fighters before they get to the Fleet?
Can you designate CAP units that have to be destroyed by the CV Fighters prior to them being able to attack the Fleet?
And would CAP fighters have any DF advantage?
Can DB capable ships conduct a DB attack on advancing CV Stike fighters before they get to the Fleet?
If you have dog fight fighters in your attacking fleet they should be able to intercept the strike fighters and have a fighter versus fighter dogfight! This would aleviate the problem with 300 Bombers taking out your whole fleet.
Interceptors should get some bonus for intercepting Bombers.
I really like the Dog Fight idea! Maybe use the DogFight rating somehow with AF/DF.
300 bombers costs around 6000EPs, perhaps 5000EPs- anything they go up against is going to be in sorry shape afterwards. Frankly, I'd rather you have your bombers attacking me in open space away from the other defences (how many special sensors will those bases have?). Reloading from spares can of course be done.
Remember- that 6000EPs is a major investment of resources. Just like a homeworld assault in F&E, the plan is to bleed him dry. While you'll take major losses, your economy is presumably not in the dumpster due to system losses/EE; and larger.
Historically, fighters are fighters in GC (and F&E)- it doesn't matter if they are superiority models or not. I suspect that if we make the distinction here, we would have to in general. Keep in mind what that means in the big picture (hint: Romulan fighters may stink, but their conversion rate is higher; the Hydrans have huge fighter capabilities; the Feds have all those F-14/F-15 fighters...).
keep up the discussion. I like we are getting some rules quirks ironed out.
I would however not look too much at dog-fighting. remember that the scale of the game is to general for dogfights...they obviously occur and it is reflected in the GC combat system. Also remember the time frame here is seg...thats what 2weeks of fighting?
I like the CAP idea but I am not sure it has to be ordered. It will probably be automatic and made into the rules.
Also note that FTRS are really frail and not that able to handle damage.
excastly how are you controling all those fighters 300 bombers are = to 50 ships in C&C slots there are limits to the number of fighters permited in the combat stacks
Listen the 300 bomber discussion isnt important IMHO b/c if someone really wants to make that kind investment in attrition units I say let em...and I spend that much in ships and conquer the rest of his empire.
J'Bar? They were ISC, not Romulan. But that is ancient history 
So a FTR CAP tactic! To counter a CV FTR Strike? Makes sense.
How would that go... After a successful R&D program, a CV or system may use its fighters to defend the hex. The FTRS using the FTR CAP are considered AM'd. FTRS using the FTR CAP may only attack enemy FTRS, Bombers, INT, or PF's.
So, you read that as 1 CV FTR strike per turn, with the caveat that the segment delay applies to the next turn. OK, but I didn't get that when I read it.
If memory serves, one could not attack with a CV FTR strike and replace the FTRS immediately during the same turn. FTRS are replaced at the end of the turn.
300 bombers without the CV FTR Strike is bad enough. (And you thought Frax missiles were bad...)
John- from stock resupplies only happen once a turn (segment "0"). There are other ways you could break out some spares faster- FCRs for example.
OK, but I think we are saying the same thing. Semantics -- I reread "C20.80 Automatic Replacement of Attrition Units".
Most builds happen at the end of the turn. Segment 0, which is the very first of a new turn could be construed to be the end of the prior turn for purposes of resupply. The desired result is the same when the new turn starts.
What I remember is that new FTR builds replenish the strategic reserve before FTRS are automatically resupplied to the CV or base.
So over two turns, one could have a CV FTR Strike, replenish lost FTRS and do the same thing next turn after waiting 4 segments. Not a problem. FTRS without the proposed tactic can fight one turn, resupply and fight the next turn.
Ack! That begs the question (I suppose) as to when resupply happens if it is not automatic?? Uh, are you with me in that the rules are vague on this point?
Why did you make me read the rule? It tends to bring up other questions.
Take 2 in a more formal order writing:
C20 .600) CV Strike I
C20.610) This tech allows you to launch a group of FTRS from one hex away, and only one hex. CV Strike cannot be used if the CV is in the same hex as the target for the CV Strike. Static defenses may use CV Strike. The CV must have defined escorts. A unit with at least 2 special sensors must be with CV SQ.
C20.620) When a CV Strike happens the FTRS making the attack may ignore assembly rules. Any and all FTRs arriving may attack together. They attack for a single round of combat. The FTRs fight at “Suicidal” without the loss of DF.
C20.630) If the launching SQ is successful in a SSJ, then the attack happens as if the FTRS had plotted a WS. Order of combat will be followed: Independent DB attacks, CAP attacks (C20.670), FTR Strike attacks, normal combat.
C20.640) Regardless of the skill of the CV or FTRS, a SQ of FTRS may make up to 1 CV Strike attack per turn but not within 4 segments of any other CV Strike they make. This technology is not available until a successful R and D project has been conducted.
C20.650) The MV of FTRS using a CV Strike is NOT considered MV for the activation of RX.
C20.660) DB attacks may not be used on a CV Strike FTR group.
C20.670) Combat Air Patrol (CAP)- It is assumed that any FTRS NOT participating in FTR Strike attacks may have some of its FTR strength up and ready at all times. Since the scale of GC is measured in weeks it is assumed that ½ of the FTRs of an area being attacked are on CAP. The CV/base may specify in their orders a number of FTRs to be left behind and NOT engaged in a FTR Strike attack if desired. Units on CAP fight at “Suicidal” without the loss of DF. Note that FTRS that are caught being SSJ may NOT use CAP.
C20.680) CV Strike II
This tech adds to CV Strike I by allowing the bombers on bases/systems to use CV Strike I. INT/PF may not use any form of CV Strike. This technology is not available until a successful R and D project has been conducted.
C20.620- the fighters do not need to assemble. They can not ignore the assembly of the other side...
630- should be two rule numbers.
635- If multiple types of battles all happen in the same hex on the same segment, battles will be resolved in the following order: Independent DB attacks, CAP attacks (C20.670), FTR Strike attacks, normal combat. [This probably should be in the generic combat rules rather than buried here, since it covers DB.]
640- two for one again. Is there a YIS limit (other than FTRs)? Doubtful, but I'll ask.
Can bombers be on CAP or just class 1 & 2 Fighters?
If RX is activated in the hex prior to the arrival of a CV Strike attack:
1. Can the defending squadron WS the CV Strike?
2. Can the defending squadron(s) use BM to avoid the CV Strike?
If the defending units move out of the hex on the same segment that the CV Strike enters the hex, which has precedence?
Ideally, CAP would be superiority fighters only (I can't see an A10 being very helpful in stopping enemy fighters). I don't suggest we make the GM keep track of that.
Ok, much clearer. But will it pass the "Jean" test?
Granted, in our world bombers would not utilize a CAP.
Most bombers are as fast or faster than some FTRS depending on the race and choice utilized. The annex says that a bomber is a FTR. Bombers are allowed on a CV! So I would say yes.
(The Romulans already have a bomber!)
I assume by reading the more formal rules that CV Strike II is needed before bombers could use CAP. The CAP is an option of the CV strike tech as currently proposed.
If we talk dogfight, which will not be allowed, bombers could not compete with FTRS.
Speaking of Jean test- we don't have races here, only empires! :-) [I'm on my 5th generation of bombers, given the three sublight models that have been in service for decades.] Bombers on ships- don't let SVC see that claim...
CAP should not require CV Strike to take effect- SFB has rules for fighters being on CAP (or ready for it), at all but the lowest weapon status levels. Low weapon status == SSJ, no SSJ == some of them are on patrol.
I would say that WS can't be used against a CV strike (John B is of course free to conclude otherwise). The intent seems to be this is similar to a WS (one round and you are done).
RXs vs. CV strike- punt to John B. Note that other RXs could come into play (FR/FE for example). I suggest no RXs apply, other than AM.
Jean cannot really look at this until CL#45 is out.
LOL.
Bombers on CV's are allowed in Galactic Conquest. The rules indicate how many normal FTR slots are used by bombers. (C20.75) Fighter Sizes.) I imagine really large hanger doors!
JB listed CAP under the CV Strike tech. I suppose that CAP could be a separate tech. These things are fluid.
I learned a while back that GC FTRS enter a battle peace meal (not all at once). A CAP tech would have a lot of FTRS in a battle at once - I like that idea.
Jean has a knack for correcting grammer and clarifying meaning for our "war gamer guy talk"!
All, beware of Romulans piloting bombers! The prior incarnation of the ISC can vouch for this.
I am not sure what happened with the FTRS long ago, but as long as all the FTRS in a battle can be controlled they all enter at once.
Bombers on CV in GC? Lord I better read that rule over. Hmmm C20.75 does seem to apply you can put bombers on CVs w/o penalty.
Allow me to say you cant, sorry.
Howard errata for the future grin
I've updated my notes.
Romulan bombers are only deadly when used at suicidal BIs. Of course Romulan doctrine is that one returns on one's shield and not before...
Shot down by a CV strike... Sigh.