Archive through August 23, 2012

Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development: August 2012: Pick the next SFB module: Archive through August 23, 2012
By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 12:32 pm: Edit


Quote:

The Carnivons (in the GW era, anyway) have to be conjectural, as either location given (WYN cluster; F&E hex 0101) wouldn't work with established history. They would be just as conjectural as any of the Paravian GW-era scenarios.




Well, that's why I was suggesting the idea of making them wandering traders more like the 'Yankee Traders' the Ferengi were originally intended to be in TNG. (Or, perhaps more specifically, the core of something like the Hanseatic League only with hidden bases).

As you say, it would be hard to imagine them having a hex on the F&E map that didn't break part of that game or established history. Especially if it is anywhere near the Lyran or Kzinti territory - hard to imagine they'd be left to live.

In any case, I just can't see getting exciting about a product half filled with 'simulator' stuff, even if the empire in question did have some historical components. Especially when it makes more sense to pull out the 'real' stuff entirely and put them in their own product (W- and Y- era Borak and Peladine should be in Module Y4. Xorkaelien raiders in Module X2, etc).

Would really, REALLY, rather keep the simulator stuff together - so people who have no interest in that don't have to buy it - and keep the 'real' stuff together in separate products.


Quote:

I can't get excited when most of the material for it was published within the last year (Peladine, Borak, Nicozian). Just seems too soon (and people get upset when a ship in a recent Cap Log appears in an R-module)




...that's an interesting point, too, I suppose. Have the 'playtest' versions of those empires, as they only just came out, even gotten enough reports back to decide what works and what doesn't? Some of those empires are VERY different from other SFU content (the Nicozians have a pile of unique and special rules, and the Borak's pure-phaser armament gives them some of the weirdest flight characteristics this side of a pure-phaser-G-Orion).

By Jim Pennington (Cutlass) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 03:39 pm: Edit

My list:

R13
Omega
C6
Y4

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 05:02 pm: Edit

Here is why we are not going to set up a poll:

First, I want to read all of the commentary, the "I want this because of that" and "If it has this I want it but otherwise no so much" stuff. A poll doesn't give me that. Frankly, a poll is just about the most useless information I could ask for. The most profitable product for ADB may well be "everybody's second choice".

Second, we collect information and watch discussions of this on three different forums (and get more by email and from other websites). Each group has a different population and different wants. A poll (if it were possible to do one in a way that produced results that meant something) on each forum would produce only the results for that forum, and the decision would be made based on a synthesis of all of the different polls, so the final decision will be different from some polls. People on a given forum could be (and historically have been) very upset when ADB "ignored the will of the people (in that forum)" and dared to consider what other groups might want.

Third, it's not "pick one" (the only thing poll can tell me) and it's not even "yes or no on each one" (which the poll could be organized to do with more trouble. The winner is going to be picked by numerous very soft and touchy factors. Which product takes too long? Which product will most people buy? Which product actually does something useful?

Fourth, the products arenít equal. Some take more work than we have time for, but need to be mentioned so people donít think we forgot them. Some cost more. Some open doors and others complete journeys. Iím sure that, on a "pick any one product and I will have it ready for Christmas" that X2 would be the miles ahead winner, but X2 cannot be ready that soon. X2 would win the poll but could not be picked and everybody would be upset that we didnít pick the winner.

And it gets worse. A product name and one-line description means anything that the guy who votes for it thinks it means. We never did the "operational module" for SFB because no one could agree on what it was, and each micro-group that wanted it wanted a very different product. Not enough people wanted any one definition to make it publishable, so it never was and never will be.

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 05:05 pm: Edit

My preference

1) Omega - I would probably like to see the speed '30' warships and bases before the new empires first, but I'm fine with either one

2) C6 - I definitely want to see the Borak, Peladine, GW-Carnivorn, GW-Paravarian get officially included into the SFU. I know due to time constraints that this choice may actually be better to go firs,t but I'm a real Omega fan.

3) Triangulum galaxy - If for nothing else, just because Gary Carney has been pushing for this one for quite a while now and I appreciate his dedication :)

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 05:13 pm: Edit

Well, George, the question with...


Quote:

GW-Carnivorn, GW-Paravarian




...is...what kind?

Part of the comment I had sent to SVC that led to the above note was in regards to that.

For example, I see two obvious breakdowns, here:

So the question is, as SVC notes, more nuanced. If you asked me if I wanted GW-Carnivon or GW-Paravian, I'd answer...well, it depends. What kind do you mean?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 05:28 pm: Edit

Thanks for the shout-out, George; though even I would like to hope that there would be more people who would be willing to spend money on an M33 module or two. (I can only afford one copy per book, unfortunately.)


Xander, it seems that C6 is really only looking at the Stellar Shadows brand of "what-ifs", in terms of how it may cover the Carnivons or Paravians (or Borak or Peladine).

In the case of the Paravians, the development branch that the ones in Omega take would be different to that in Alpha; not least since there are many details about the origins of the Omega-Paravians that have yet to be hammered out.

Think of how both Star Fleet and the Auroran Navy diverged from their common origins in the Middle Years Federation.

(While I would like to see those Paravians have some sort of run-ins with the Gorns post-Sakharov, they would likely need some sort of advanced technology to be published before they could constitute a threat by that era.)

As for the Carnivons, I think that their best option is to start over in Sargasso, and to basically forget about the Alpha Octant. Even if they managed to find an enclave of "clear" space to settle in, they'd need to try and manage their resources during the storm years; and to prepare for the resource rush that opens up when one storm ends and before another one begins. While that could still be a fascinating dynamic in is own right, I don't think it would be conducive to allowing them to try and plan anything as grandiose as a return to Alpha.

(It could, however, make things interesting if any Kzinti or Lyran explorers use the LMC to try and explore Sargasso in the post-Unity era...)


Ultimately, it seems that for the scope of the Alpha "zone" to expand beyond adding more ships and fleets to the simulators, it needs to wait until the late-X1/early-X2 era; when the LMC has become a (semi-)regular destination, when other sectors of the Milky Way are opened to long-range travel, and when the likes of the Xorkaelians bring their own brand of trouble to Alpha itself.

I suppose that is the one thing I would hope for most with X2; that it takes the chance to really play up what amounts to a brand new Age of Discovery for the Unity powers going forward.


But, in order to make sure those X2-tech ships have something good to discover once they get there, a little more fleshing out of places like Omega would be welcome in the interim.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 05:47 pm: Edit

OK, re-post since I put just a poll.

I'd like to see C6, and specificaly would like to see the Peladine and Paravians fleshed out, including general war and Andromedan war permutations. These empires are very interesting and I have often seen them selected for individual campaign use, simply because they are popular. You already have most of the material, so I would hope they would be easier to produce and raise income more quikly. You could also include the Carnivons and the Borak, but those are somewhat less popular in my limited experience, so space permitting I'd concentrate more on the Paravians and Peladine.

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 06:05 pm: Edit

C6 would be my first choice, just because I would like to see the Carnivons grown up. Maybe in addition to the new races toss in a couple of ships for each of the alpha races.
R13 probably second,but please no more carriers. How many out there have had a real chance to put carrier groups in action? Maybe the collered Klingons, refit forthe Fed CC/CA to bring it up to General ar standards, the Wide gorns.
Triangulum Galaxy, I like some of the rules, might be nice to try them on some other races.
X2, but I think we need the Xorks to make it interesting

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 06:23 pm: Edit

There are still some X1 ships that I really want to see, but I am also dubious that ther are enough for a full X1B module. Previously, X-ships have been published mostly in "pure X" modules. The same could be said for Early Years ships. But does that have to be the case?

My first choice for the next module would be an R13 that primarily contains "standard tech" ships (whether "never were" or "unusual but historical" or a combination of both) but also includes the handful of X1B ships (and Y4 ships) that are still needed and interesting.

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 06:35 pm: Edit

Xander,

To clarify, I was looking at the second breakdown, the 'real GW-Paravian and GW-Carnivorn, as the hopefully more accessible option. For the Paravian specifically because they actually did survive within the Omega sector and became a significant threat leading up to the Paravian "Jihad" later in history (as established throughout the Omega timeline).

In regards to the GW-Carnivorns, along with the Borak and Peladine, I like to see them make a come back of sorts. Maybe all three races having survivors, forming a Tri-pact (Coalition and Alliance have been taken already by the nasty Alphans :) ) and making a push to reclaim their lost Delta sector.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 07:02 pm: Edit

OK, to join the gang in clarification, for C6, I want to see fully realized Paravian and Carnivon fleets. The whole idea of a dozen specialized, wandering or whatever ships holds zero interest to me. I want to see them as what they would look like as fully realized GW-era empires. As such, yes, that means they have to be conjectural (or you get to throw out decades of SFU history).

I really dislike the idea of "resurrecting" the Carnivons or Paravians (or, for that matter, the Peladine or Borak) into "real" empires in the GW-era. The SFU already has plenty of pocket empires (WYN, Tholian, LDR, Vudar). There really don't need to be any more of them. The Carnivons and Paravians are dead*. I don't want that changed. In fact, doing so would probably convince me that C6 isn't worth the bother of buying.

[*] Yeah, there can be GW-era Carnivons in the Sargasso, and are Paravians in Omega. Don't care. They are not what I am talking about. And not what I want C6 to be about.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 07:18 pm: Edit

As a further thought, it might be a good idea to kick the Nicozians out of C6. Why? Two reasons:
1) If all of the empires are to have a reasonably complete fleet, it will be very hard to cover all five (Peladine, Borak, Paravians, Carnivons, Nicozians).
2) Of the five, only the "Nicozians" are "real". All four of the others are conjectural projections of dead/conquered empires into GW-era powers. The Nicozians are totally different.

So, if full fleets are to be done, four might be better than five. Plus, it lets Xander avoid the product without feeling like he missed out on anything ...

Just for reference, a "full fleet" is pretty large these days. Just looking at things, you get a list like this:
DNH, DN, DNL, SCS, CVA,
BCH, CC, CA, CF, CA-V
CWL, CW, CWV, CWP, CWE, CWS
DWL, DW, DWV, DWE, DWS
FFL, FF, FFE, Tug, LTT, Pods
Fighters, More Fighters, PFs
That is a list of 30 entries for *each* empire. This also ignores some popular designs (NCA, CCH) and secondary variants (minesweeper, troop, SR). Obviously, there will be some variation as some empires won't have something and will get something extra, but this is still a fair working list. So, four of these empires is a 120 page SSD book. Five is a 150 page SSD book. I have seen the first; I haven't see the latter.

(PS. This is nothing against the Nicozians. This is merely an attempt at a pragmatic observation. I would like to see the Nicozians done up right, but, if my assumptions above are correct, this might not be the right product for them.)

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 07:26 pm: Edit

I wholeheartedly support the idea of publishing ships that bring any and all Empires up to a General War era campaign standard of readiness. Whether they are conjectural, limited or simulator makes no difference to me. If an empire need tugs, publish them, if then need bases, publish them, if then need Carriers or PFTs of BBs publish them. This allows a player to field their favorite Empire fully in whatever game or campaign system they wish whether it is a published campaign, homegrown campaign, Warlord based, F&E based, GC based or FC based. I also believe that full fleets will be nice to have when Federation Admiral is finished.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 07:28 pm: Edit


Quote:

All four of the others are conjectural projections of dead/conquered empires into GW-era powers




...although, to be pedantic, the Borak *do* have several 'real' W-era and Y-era ships, and the Peladine have at least one Y-era ship that is 'real'. (Of course, it has long been my opinion these should appear in Y4, anyway, as there are few-to-no custom rules for them compared to the GW designs...while all EY-period ships have a LOT of period-specific limitations compared to GW-era ships)

Otherwise, sure - if you want to re-arrange things to use full empires and have them all fully 'simulation/conjectural'...that's helpful to me, yup! Not my preference - I'd like a product I'll buy - but it's helpful to split them up that way.

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 07:44 pm: Edit

One other point to make. :)

When I think of GW-Paravian or GW-Carnivorns I'm thinking that their technology base is "General War" as opposed to being "X-tech" based. I am not looking to insert them directly into the General War timeline.

As an example:

I was thinking that maybe the GW-Carnivorns (whether they were a "Yankee Trader" empire or some other creation) had stumbled across both the Peladine and Borak survivors and helped each of them develop more modern ships. Which the Alpha empires had gotten right with their conjectures, (or perhaps the ideas were actually stolen and copied by the Carnivorns).

Perhaps the Tri-pact was formed and they had begun their push to take back their homeworlds at around the same time as the height of the Andromedan Invasion. The off-map areas of the Lyrans, Klingons, Kzinti and Hydrans had to make due with whatever GW tech ships (with perhaps a few partial X-tech thrown in) they had when these areas became isolated by the Andromedans. This way the Delta sector can be isolated during he Andromedan war while the Alpha empires concentrated all of their X-tech in their respective home regions and pushed back the Andromedans

By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 08:22 pm: Edit

Sounds good to me. I think there is room beyond the Hydrant/Lyran/Kzinti off map areas for a couple small sized empires like this. No need to have them push into the main map during already established history.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 08:48 pm: Edit

The Carnivons aren't going to be yankee traders.

Frankly, the whole idea of a race/species/empire of yankee traders that wander all over the place is rubbish. (Not to mention Paramount might see it as a red flag.) You already have those (normal merchants using free traders and customs forms.)

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 08:57 pm: Edit

Preferences with opinion.

C6
Due to the time constraints, this is the best choice, I would enjoy this module, and would place it second after Omega. I would prefer the alt. history version, as was done withe Paravians in CL 28, however; George Duffy's suggestion for the Borak/Carnivon/Paravian Andromedan war triple threat idea is intriguing.
Concerns;
Borak, Very recent release, may not have the bugs worked out yet and need more revisions. Probably ought to wait on this empire.
Peladine, Should be as ready as it is gonna be, go for it.
Paravian, Should be as ready as it is gonna be, go for it.
Carnivon, From what I have seen and heard from others the disruptor cannons may not be balanced very well. It will be interesting to see what they look like in GW area.
Nicozian, Far too new and different to be ready for publication, note the recent questions about their drive systems and ESGs. I would like to see a few more ship types from these guys first.

Omega
I would really like to see speed thirty capable warships, other than the Vari ones that were in a Captain's Log, although getting the rest of the empires out would also be nice.

LMC2
The Yorl Septs, and the Chomak would be nice to have, conjectural or real SC2 ships would also be interesting.

X2
I am very interested in X2, BUT I think we need to finish Omega first, before we bring in a new galaxy wide threat. It will make it easier to keep them balanced if we have the various base line systems out for all of Omega. We may need Sigma/Sargasso as well for this.

New Galaxy or Sector
It would be nice to see more of Triangulum, or anything else you are keeping close to your vest. Note the above comment for X2.

X1B
If we have enough new and interesting ships.

Y4
This ought to include the afore mentioned Tellerites, Cygnans ect. Whether or not you include the early Borak, and Peladine is a business decision, I can see arguments either way. Otherwise if we have enough new and interesting ships.

R13
If we have enough new and interesting ships.

By Scott Drumm (Denagoth) on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 09:56 pm: Edit

C6; however, the statement in the memo "We know that the product wonít sell without HOT new material, specifically, a new empire. " caught my imagination.

If we can't get to see the Xorkaelians now perhaps C6 could provide an "icy touch of fear" by presenting the last remnants of a once great empire - thoroughly beaten, their homeworlds savaged, their species fleeing the Xorkaelian armadas across the glimmering arms of the Milky Way...

My hope is that the Xorkaelians bring back the "fear factor" to SFB that the Andromedans once had...building up their reputation a bit couldn't hurt. :)

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 09:32 am: Edit


Quote:

My hope is that the Xorkaelians bring back the "fear factor" to SFB that the Andromedans once had...building up their reputation a bit couldn't hurt.


I like this idea.

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 09:38 am: Edit

I would love to see C6 with the GW era, Carnivons and Paravian, my best guess is that the new homes for these races would be corewad of the alpha quadrant. perhaps east and west of the Federation off map area. This could b and expanded range of the F&E map as well. The other new races would just be icing on the delicious cake. :D

Second choice would be an Omega sector module, any of the options would be of interest.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 12:23 pm: Edit

I was thinking along the same lines as the " Tri-pact" suggestion. There is room in the survey zone near the storm zone for these races to colonize. Each race has two-three F%E hexes. Since they are not at war they could build their empires as well as a moderately sized fleets. Perhaps some of the ships would be unbuilt variants (or other designations out of G3 like CAM, RPU, UNQ etc.).

I think the Tr-pact would be an interesting new dynamic for the later post-GW into the trade wars time. The Jindarians could have provided the Borak/Carnivon/Peladine empires with technology and intelligence about what is going on.

I would suggest they would build a different style survey cruiser. It would be more heavily armed. Another variant is a smaller survey ship designed for limited forays into the storm zone (they some relic or special metals needed for ship building etc.).

For Omega I would like to see Paravian raids into the Gorn and ISC remote area in the late Y190s. These raiders would have with Nucian quantum wave mines (captured in Y174). In Y 209 larger raids occur and these ships have captured Ymatrian technology and ground forces. Some the three Omega empires I would like to see are the Nucians, Paravians, and the Zosman Marauders.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 02:24 pm: Edit

The only people raiding in the Y190s are the Andromedans, at least on the scale you are proposing here.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 02:47 pm: Edit

The late Y190s (Y198-Y199) I am speaking about are more of intelligence gathering missions not an invasion. So my saying these are raids was misleading.

A cruiser or survey ship makes it across the void and back. Then a squadron of a few ships cross do a limited recon of the areas just past the void. Perhaps between Y200 and Y203 they set up a listening post.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 03:02 pm: Edit

The issue there is how badly pressed the Paravians are in the Y190s by the Andromedans and Souldra.

From Y187, the Souldra had started to make attacks into Paravian space; forcing the latter to call off the raids they had been launching into Trobrin territory. As the Souldra ramped up their assaults in the Y190s, with the Andromedans kicking off their own full-scale invasion of Omega at the same time, the Paravians were forced to abandon much of their outlying territories by Y195, in order to more strongly fortify their core provinces.

(It is reported that the Loriyill Splinter Collective helped to keep the Paravians alive; though whether the Loriyill intervened directly in Paravian space, or simply benefited the birds indirectly through their victory at the Black Sun in Y198, is as yet unclear.)

However, once the Seventh Cycle kicks off in Y205, the Paravians would be in a better position to start expanding outwards again. That said, it does seem that the Paravians are quite reluctant to forewarn the Gorns of any potential return; plus they are still quite heavily focused on their buildup to the coming Jihad in the Eighth Cycle.


So, if there were to be any Omega-Paravian raids into Gorn space, it might either come after the Gorns already learn of their existence via the return of the Sakharov, or be carefully executed in such a way as to leave no evidence of their activities. (They were able to keep the Trobrin ignorant of their presence for quite some time before the silicates eventually uncovered them; including an incident in Y164, where the Paravians destroyed a Trobrin ship that had uncovered one of their watch-posts, then successfully planted enough evidence to make it look like the wreck had suffered a warp accident. So running a similar operation against the Gorns might not be entirely out of the question.)


But in any case, the ships being used to launch those raids would probably not be the "GW-Paravian" ships being offered for C6; but rather, the "Omega-Paravian" hulls which may one day appear in a future Omega module.

(Especially if the Paravians have integrated Ymatrian antiproton technology by the time the raids are being carried out.)

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