Archive through August 25, 2012

Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development: August 2012: Pick the next SFB module: Archive through August 25, 2012
By Frank Brooks (Alskdjf) on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 05:29 pm: Edit

I would like (in no particular order): Omega, Triangulum, LMC.

There is all kinds of room for new stuff in those regions without having to worry about rewriting history.

Also, I have to admit I'm getting a bit tired of yet another crack being filled in in the Alpha Octant.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 05:29 pm: Edit


Quote:

Sure, we can tell some stories of "species" that had an overlooked role in the General War, but not new empires/ships/weapons




Oh, I surely wasn't clear on that part of the suggestion, too, but...yeah, absolutely no new weapons, here. I'd propose maybe some haphazard combinations of existing weapons (disruptors I'd expect the most common) strapped to hulls not intended for them...I bet a lot of these ships would suffer shock if you took them into battle...but very little to nothing "totally new".

(Well, except the 'ships' part. I still think you could find a place to squeeze in some legitimately 'new' destroyer or frigate-sized ships in here and there, even if the weapons they are armed with are entirely purchased from their neighbors.)

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 06:34 pm: Edit

In general, two guiding concepts for me:

1) I'm looking for overall new content. (Near-)identical reprints of 80% playtest material doesn't really excite me (mostly because I already have it), but I'd be psyched to have them be "legit" finally.

2) I like to campaign and I'd rather have fewer races that are "campaign capable" then more that aren't.

That said ...

Omega-X - Anything that fills out the Omega races would be good with me. As has been mentioned previously bringing them up to 30-Warp would allow them to compete with non-Omega in a campaign.

C6 - The arguments on the conjecturalness of the imaginary empires get a little meta for me. I like all the empires in question. Nic. seem out of place with the others, but I'd gladly take them. Again, I'd rather have fewer races better flushed then more races not-flushed. I agree with Steve, this really needs something truly new to make it a seller.

Triangulum - Love to have this be "legit" finally, particularly with the existing races flushed a little more before adding additional. I'd probably be outvoted there.

Y4 - If there's enough ships for it, I find the Y-period to be more engaging then the X-period. As ships get refined, "holes" in the ships design naturally get fixed and the ships have less character. I'm pretty sure I'm in a minority in that preference.

LMC - Interesting ideas in the LMC, but not enough material to make them campaign usable. The funky shields make them hard to balance against non-LMC, IMHO.

The following I'm "meh" about:

R13 - depends on what's in it. I like the wingnut ships. Also like "one empire" builds. If this is giving everyone another class that's 3 SSD boxes bigger than this class and 2 SSD boxes smaller than this class not particularly interested.

X2 - I KNOW I'm in the minority here. X1 never caught me and while I think X2 would be better for me if they're truly new ship designs. I however think that'd be a lot of work.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 08:42 pm: Edit

Xander,

I understand your desire for new module. But continuing to add more ships to the GW era is getting, well very difficult. We (as a collective I believe) have almost run out of ideas, that WON'T change the history as it already is.

So that makes making additional R-Modules problematic. Now if there were more SCENARIO books to depict what happened during the GW, that is how I believe is the best way to do it. But R-Modules, VERY difficult it seems.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 09:13 pm: Edit

Actually, the way the thought train derailed to, I'd think this would be more appropriate as something like a 'Module C7: Minor Empires' than an R-module. Also a good spot for the Nicozians, actually. Throw a bunch of these other not-even-a-fraction-of-a-full-F&E-hex nations in there, then. Species that bought W-era and Y-era destroyers or cruisers from major empire mothball fleets decades after they were decommissioned, strapped some modern drones or disruptors on them (sometimes creating shock effects), called it a "fleet flagship" and put a 16-star "General and Vice-President for Life" in command. Or, you know, small democracies, too, looking to defend their interest. Could do 7 or 8 new empires that way - far, FAR too small to register in the F&E game; none with more than a half dozen ships (of 2 or 3 native designs and maybe some purchased obsolete warships that got a few updates), no starbases, battle stations, or base stations...

Nicozians would fit right in with those.

(And resurrecting another idea from much farther up-thread...I'd love to see a former-slave-species discover some of CL#45's Cyndarian ships in orbit, repair them and claim the name of their former masters...busting out into the sector expecting to make a name for themselves...only to be promptly squashed by the neighboring empire. This also wouldn't effect F&E, as nobody would know about them before their expedition...it would be promptly wiped out...so there would be no need to deal with any garrisoning of their world or fleet deployments or anything like that. Given the Cyndarians came from the 'East', and nobody seems to have done much exploring around F&E hex 5502 and off to the corner of the map, such a spot would be perfect for a new stranger to come barreling out of in a brief and misguided attempt to make a name for themselves...)

The problem is that I think too many of you are thinking WAY TOO BIG whenever you read a suggestion for a new species or empire...expecting the request for a top-down, whole-9-yards, dozens-of-ships-and-variants proposal. That's not what is being suggested, here. Of course another 'major empire' with dreadnoughts and PF wings and starbases won't work in the alpha sector. Obviously! But that doesn't mean nothing else would be possible...it just has to be an addition in such a way and scale that "doesn't effect F&E". Sort of like how the Nicozians got added into the midst of the General War.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 09:15 pm: Edit

R13 - Korvetten im Krieg (German Spelling) [Korvettes at War]

The war korvettes (KW) are a class of warship developed during the middle of the General War. They were typically small, fast, maneuverable and relatively lightly-armed. Generally large enough to be considered a warship but smaller than a frigate, corvettes filled a variety of roles that ranged from picket duty within large fleets to planetary/system defense and convoy escort. Korvettes saw action with nearly all space navies starting during the middle part of the General War period.

Korvettes filled a comparatively inexpensive gap in the warship range. They were suitable for dealing with any ships smaller than themselves, and though they were not effective against larger ships without support, many were famous for outrunning and escaping them, thanks to their exceptional speed and maneuverability for a warship.

F&E Benefits:
Each SB can build one KW per year (Y172+).
At Colony Planets: One KW can be added to battle force over command limits.
At Minor Planets: Two KWs can be added to battle force over command limits.
At Major Planets: Three KWs can be added to battle force over command limits.
Each KW in a battle force with any convoy/ENG/FRD/econ tug/planet adds one point needed to use directed damage on the target.

See list below for limitations:

PFKWFF4FF5
SFBPROPOSED
Move Cost1/51/41/31/3 - 1/2
NimbleYesYesNoNo
Tender RequiredYesnoNoNo
.
F&EPROPOSED
COMPOT2/-3/1-2 [H: 2-3(1)/1-2(^)]4/25/3
Cost (EPs)0.52.02.53.0
Cmnd RatingDependsCR2CR3CR3
Op Move1666
Open Supply PathYesYesYesYes
Block Supply PathYesYesYesYes
Part of ReserveIf CarriednoYesYes
Use Repair DepotNonoYesYes
Can RaidIf CarriednoYesYes
Can GarrisonNonoYesYes
Can Capture ProvinceNonoYesYes
Can Disrupt ProvinceNonoYesYes
Expeditionary UseIf CarriednoYesYes
Homeless UseIf CarriednoYesYes
YISVariesY172+VariesVaries
On ScheduleNonoYesYes
SB ProductionYesYesYesYes


Typical SSD:
One heavy weapon
Phasers as required
One each: TRANS/TRAC/SHTL
No LABs (Use Command box)
Shields: PF<KW<FF
Tracks: PF<KW<FF
Crew: PF<KW<FF

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 11:07 pm: Edit

There are several items that could go in R13. After all the original title was More Ships that Never Were. Fast warships for other races than the Fed., the Gun fighter frigates. What else has been put in variuos publications, the Heavy gorns, The Z refits for the Feds, The collared Klingons. The Fed V series from CL18.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 12:48 am: Edit

C6. I don't think we're "allowed" to have Borak SSDs on SFBOL until then; and until we do, I cannot play them, as I have no local opponents any longer. ;)

Likewise the Peladine, although some of those are already on SFBOL due to Stellar Shadows.

By Dixon Simpkins (Dixsimpkins) on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 12:50 am: Edit

I am not eager to buy a product with conjectural/unbuilt ships that have already been published. I'd be much more interested in new material.

Frankly, though, I'd rather have Y4 or an X-ships module next. I am not so interested in "fringy" stuff like Omega or C6 (I did not buy C5 and doubt that I ever will). That leaves Y4, X and R13. I feel that Y4 and X have the best potential for more ships and could be produced fairly quickly as they are pretty much "color inside the lines" modules. I guess my preference, ultimately, would be X1B as just about any GW ship could be made into an X-ship. Pick a few of these to do and throw in some conjectural X-Dreadnoughts and X-BCHs and you'd have enough for a module.

I concur with the opinion that the General War has about been fleshed out enough already. Sure, there are more ships that could be done but I don't feel that every empire* needs to have every variant of every hull type. Time to wrap it up, historically speaking. Any further GW modules should be "Ships That Never Were"

*Hey, I remembered - empire, not race!

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 01:37 am: Edit

I hate to say it but I have heard there's issues with any new ships going onto SFBOL, I purchased a few modules that should have made it there after there 6 months but so far no C3A ships on SFBOL.

My guess is that C6 or R13 or whatever would be the same, and unfortunatly I dont have a local group to play with so thats really slowed down my purchases of new modules.

For a module to have any real value to me as a gamer I need it on SFBOL. So the pirates have fracked it up for me and anyone else who's playing exclusivly online.

I have to say an R13 with nothing but KW's wouldnt ever get my money, they sound alot like a POL with fancy F&E abilities.

I would love to see the Borak in C6 and on SFBOL, but untill the issues with adding new ships to the SFBOL library are resolved I cant spend money re buying the Borak which I bought the playtest module for.

So my question for the powers that be would be will whatever module is published next be available for me to play online after a reasonable period of time?

If its not going to ever make it online, my opinion doesnt count since im not really a tabletop SFB player any more. But im a very active online player and would enjoy new ships and empires.

And whats to stop the pirates from buying one paper copy and doing what they aparantly have been doing with the SFBOL ship SSD's. I think it would probably be even easier for them to do what they do from a PDF or paper copy of the product. If thats true then not putting the ships online wont slow down piracy, but it will drive a wedge into the player base seperating the lucky ones with face to face groups from the online only people. I think thats a shame because if it were not for SFBOL I wouldnt have retured to the game after 15 plus years not playing and Ive purchased several hundred dollars worth of products to get up to date.

Some were PDF copies of Captains logs I own copies of in paper which I purchsed because I wanted to support ADB and have them in a more convienient format for online play.

Nobody is talking much about the policy change regarding new ships going online. This may not be the best place to bring it up but it does factor into my decision to buy or not to buy.

I see that there are people who have not heard that there are not going to be any new ships added to the online library untill the issues are resolved, I think we deserve some sort of statement on the issue. Its not really fair to sell the modules to people who intend to play online but wont be able to because of a policy thats not really been announced.

If ive been mislead and C3A ships are going online soon my apologies, but I had heard through the grape vine that no new ships were going to be added to the library.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 01:55 am: Edit

Xander:


Just a quick note; according to the data in ISC War, the Gorns had occupied the various NZ hexes in the top-right of the map (save for the ones directly adjacent to the ISC) and turned them into three new provinces by the start of the Pacification Campaign.

(How the people living on Pavarak, the minor neutral planet in 5403, felt about being signed up to the Confederation has yet to be stated, however.)


There would still likely be at least some unoccupied space in the off-map area, through the point where the coremost segment of the Void meets the nearest edge of the Storm Zone; though I kind of like Joseph's idea of the Paravians on the other side using that not-quite-so-impassable gap to try and raid the fringes of Gorn space in the X2-era.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 02:41 am: Edit

I kind of also feel that the General War is a bit full. Myself, I'd like to see X2, but where X2 is not "just like X1 but more so," but rather more like a new era with the same offense/defense balance that GW era has. There is lots of fun stuff that could be done: Ships that can move faster than 32 comes to mind, some sort of VRF-like technology (that only works against X1 ships and earlier) that allows the ships to have fewer boxes on them, restoring the old offense/defense balance, while still allowing the newer ships to defeat older ships. Tholians with particle cannons and other recovered home galaxy tech, hoverwarp and hyperdrone-like technology for real empires, travel into the Storm Zones allowing contact with Omega (and the other sectors), X-fighters for non-Hydrans, Paravian return, launching/landing shuttles by transporter (they can do it in "that 80's and 90's Trek", anyway)... I mean, there are all kinds of fun things, that if done right would open up new possibilities without causing excessive wackiness.

New races are always fun, but it's been a long time since there's been a new race added to alpha octant that's really been a hit. I guess the Peladine are the closest, but they aren't real, and who can blame people for wanting to play them since all their ships are so overpowered. Anyway, as fun as the Borak are, another "empire that could have been" just isn't that exciting.

I know ADB gets paid when it sells, not when it plays, but I don't think I've ever found anyone to play a Vudar or Jindarian scenario. Because of the congested Alpha octant environment, new races are always so limited.

I am not sure GFB's concern that there will never be any new SFBOL ships is warranted. ADB has never stated this that I know of. A delay between ships being published in print and them being put on SFBOL is understandable. Now that SFBOL does not have downloadable SSDs, the really easy piracy vector is no longer a risk. Of course it will still be possible to pirate the SSDs one way or another, but it won't be significantly easier than just scanning the paper copies, so it won't contribute much to piracy.

However, if the policy really is that there will never be any more SFBOL SSDs, ADB should come out and say that so that people can make decisions accordingly. I am a little like GFB, I basically only ever get to play online, so some sort of online SSD access is pretty important to me (even if it takes a few months).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 11:21 am: Edit

I'm a SFU history fan. Whatever is next I want to see the history expanded and moved forward. An X1R2 module could do this and now that F&E ISC Wars is done things should be able to move forward. X2 is the next thing that would bring history into an new era. The GW was twenty plus years, the X2 era then is a huge new field to play in.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 11:42 am: Edit

Its been pretty hot and heavy debate wise. At the moment simplicity is best since this is a short order item.

In my order of preference:

Omega with more basic ships making more races campaign capable. Speed 30 ships giving more parity between Alpha/Omega games.

C# Frankly I just dont see any "Hot" empires that could be added to make it a success with the short lead time.

R# Instead of empires substitue ships and you have the same problem here. Offhand the only thing I can come up with is the old super heavy cruiser concept. Of which the only published example of the class is the Killer Hawk.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 12:04 pm: Edit

The slowdown on SFBOL is the conversion to the new SSD format. Once it's done, the release of new ships will be much faster. Until it's done, not much new gets released at all.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 12:28 pm: Edit

It appears the proposed C6 empires can't exist because of the GW history and F&E. So move them on the other side of the energy barrier.

The Andromedans came through the bottom of the galactic disc. So these empires went through a fissure in the top of the disc. What made the fissure? A globular cluster/really small satellite galaxy was pulled apart by gravity and some of the stars impacted the energy barrier. These exploded making the fissure. Also the remaining parts of the globular cluster/really small satellite galaxy formed new stars and planetary systems.

There could a could of other fissures as well. One between the Fed Kzinti survey areas and one in coordinates 3910 (Fed/Gorn/Romulan). Since there are not enough X-ships for their own module put X-survey ships in C6. I would like to see a heavier version of the Fed GSX.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 12:40 pm: Edit

Problem with that is there is nothing out there for them to settle on. No stars, no planets, no thing. A few island galaxies at distances unreachable by those empires.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 01:09 pm: Edit

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 01:14 pm: Edit

I looked at this issue some time back. There are open clusters, globular clusters, and super star clusters. Some are close enough to the galactic plane as to be reachable.

Here is a link to Sag D:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittarius_Dwarf_Elliptical_Galaxy

The above is just an example. Note some of the stars are population 1 stars. Here is a list: http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/globular.html

There are some between 1 thousand and 6 thousand light years or within 6 F&E hexes. So all I am suggesting is there seems to be enough information to suggest this could be plausible for SFB.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Not reachable by THOSE empires with the technology on hand. I said that.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 01:18 pm: Edit

The Iridani are an example of a species that hails from such a place; I had assumed that there were several dozen more just like the Iridani Cluster in orbit of the Milky Way. (How many of them might also be inhabited would be another story.)

EDIT: while the above would not be useful for any of the C6 empires, it might be a way for some other empires to island-hop to and from different parts of the Milky Way in the X2 era. (Maybe one or two such clusters can help with up-and-unders through the barrier and back when trying to get to Sigma or Sargasso?)

By Ken Rodeghero (Ken_Rodeghero) on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 01:21 pm: Edit

I would like to see X2 when it can be done right but that will mean something different to almost everyone. My personal preference is a fast forward in time to a new era with new ships, alliances, etc. I am not really concerned if it is completely playable with existing SFB ships but I suspect that is a requirement. I don't want to see X2 just be more bigger better ships with longer OL ranges and more power and such. I would ideally like to see the future history written like BattleTech does theirs: releasing modules that step along the timeline chronologically and show the empires and the wars evolving. New ships, people, technology, fiction, etc. all contribute to showing the progression of events. I too think that the GW is pretty full and instead of filling in more gaps I would like to see a significant forward progression. I think this would be really fun to play and follow and provide the Steves and the fiction authors a fertile wide open ground to continue exercising their serious creativity. SVC and Petrick could write the overall story bible to make a framework for things to follow. Similarly, events at cons like Origins or organized play could contribute to the historical record and influence the timeline in some way. This would lend some meaning to the organized play, give some scenarios with significance to Origins, and give some interesting and unexpected things for authors to write to and spur their creativity. This would also continue the ADB tradition of player involvement that they do better than any company out there. This comes with its own peril that it is not "true" SFB/TOS Trek so might turn some people off. That said, I love the SFU and really have enjoyed the way BattleTech evolves their universe both in fiction and units. I would like to see this approach or something similar applied to the SFU. I know this is a radical departure from business as usual but I think that makes it even more exciting and interesting.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 01:28 pm: Edit

SVC message received and accepted. Thanks for at least considering it.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 01:36 pm: Edit

The comparison with BattleTech might be apt in another way, too.

Even now, there is a significant proportion of the BT franchise that is exclusively loyal to the 3025 era; and to units like the "Unseen", the designs for which were originally sourced from other franchise settings. However, the setting has also been able to establish its own "home-grown" iconic 'Mechs (such as the Timber Wolf/Mad Cat, the Celestial-series units built for the Word of Blake's Manei Domini, and the new wave of Dark Age-era totem 'Mechs like the Jade Hawk).

While Catalyst continues to provide support for the Succession Wars era, they have made the point of placing it as but one era among many; with books set during the Star League era, a recently-finished series of sourcebooks covering the Word of Blake Jihad, and a brand new set of books due in the future that will jump ahead to the uncharted territory post-3150.

A Venn diagram showing how support for these various eras lines up would likely show significant areas where the plaer bases don't overlap; but, in the wider picture, there should (hopefully) be enough room for all six BattleTech eras to be at least popular enough to be self-sustaining.


That would be a similar hope I'd have in the long run for the SFU. The likes of the Early Years and X2, or Omega and Triangulum, would each have their own sub-set of fans; while there will likely always be plenty of people who like to stick with the General War, which of course is perfectly fine. Ideally, there would be enough room at the inn for new frontiers to be reached, and to prove viable as settings; while not taking away from those areas that have been core aspects of the SFU from the outset.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 01:51 pm: Edit

SVC,

If two SFB modules doesn't gel is G4 possible or some other non-counter product?

I actually like C6 as proposed by you and SPP.

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