Tournament TCX TD7X areeven worse.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 01:12 pm: Edit

I'm pretty sure that there is a CA/CC sized Juggernaut ship that could easily be made to fit tournament standards. I mean, I have no idea what the balance issues would be involving the rotating shield in a single ship match up (I'd imagine that it would be, at least on some level, problematic), but if you took the CA sized Juggernaut ship, give it 4 shuttles, 2 tractors, and 5 batteries, you could give it a whirl against some TCs and see what happens.

By Eric Phillips (Ericphillips) on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 01:24 pm: Edit

Well, that's the problem. The Juggy CA is way way more powerful than other empires's CA. It clocks in at 340 bpv! The CL 235. Then the DD falls all the way to 105.

However, I dig the Juggy, and now that their is just enough ships to make it playable in some campaigns, why not have a T-Jug?

Another problem is the PH-4s, which is their heavy weapon. I'd probably limit the T-JUG to only 1 (with FA arc). Anymore would be overkill.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 01:40 pm: Edit

Huh. I thought there was some version in a CL that was in the 150 BPV range. Apparently not.

The P4's shouldn't be a problem, assuming the rest of the ship worked around them--having 2xP4s isn't that much different than 2xTRH (also auto hit guns that do about 20 damage each). I mean, yeah, the P4's fire every turn and all, but if the ship were balanced to work around that, it'd probably be ok. Like, the ship is going to lose a P4 on any significant volley of internals (as it has to lose a P4 on every 3rd phaser hit of a volley) and they are expensive to fix.

Lemme go find the published CL/DD and see what would fall in the middle.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 12:34 am: Edit

So we need a Juggy DWL?

With a Shriek missile or two?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 09:15 am: Edit

I don't know that we *need* one, but I suspect at least some people would be entertained by it :-)

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 12:07 pm: Edit

Juggernaught Ships

UnitType	UnitName	BPV
BB	Battleship	768
DN	Dreadnought	768
DNM	Missile Dreadnought	536
CA	Heavy Cruiser	340
CL	Light Cruiser	235
DD	Destroyer	105
FF	Frigate	80

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 12:40 pm: Edit

Thanks, Ken!

So yeah, I guess we'd need to invent something between the DD and the CL to base a TC on.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 03:12 pm: Edit

The DD isn't that far below the Orion TC's base hull, it shouldn't be impossible to build it up a bit.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 03:23 pm: Edit

BB Battleship 768
DN Dreadnought 768

eh?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 07:34 pm: Edit

That should be 500 BPV for the Juggernaut Empire DN.

Some sort of HDD, with a Shriek included for good measure, could be an interesting option.

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 12:27 pm: Edit

Hmmmm ... just thinking through it, a HDD with a shriek and one P4 feels to me a lot like the Borak with 2 Suicide Fighters and 2 Phaser-Ms. Arcs are a little bit better and worse on the Borak.

The fundamental problem I see with the ship from an strategy perspective is trying to keep it viable over the course of an tournament. I just have to do enough damage to get 3 phaser hits and the Juggy is down for the count. You could switch to more Phaser-Ms to give resilience, but then you're pretty much duplicating a Borak.

The Borak is certainly larger than a DD, but not by a large ammount IIRC.

By Andrew Granger (Captaincf) on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 03:37 am: Edit

All this talk about juggernaughts has me wondering where these other juggernaught ships can be found. Also, are there tournament ships for the simulator races?

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 08:47 am: Edit

Juggernaughts and where the SSD's are located:

BB JUG.4 Juggernaut Battleship, CL41 Pg- 99
CA JUG.2 Juggernaut Heavy Cruiser, CL35 Pg-113
CL JUG.3 Juggernaut Light Cruiser, CL35 Pg-114
DD JUG.6 Juggernaut Destroyer, CL41 Pg-101
DN JUG.1 Juggernaut Dreadnought, CL33 Pg-118/CL01 Pg- 20
DNM JUG.5 Juggernaut Missile Dreadnought, CL41-100
FF JUG.7 Juggernaut Frigate, CL41 Pg-102

By Andrew Granger (Captaincf) on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 10:15 am: Edit

I wonder if there are anyplans to combine them into one product, even just a pdf for e23.

By Andrew Granger (Captaincf) on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 10:23 am: Edit

I wonder if there are anyplans to combine them into one product, even just a pdf for e23.

By Andrew Granger (Captaincf) on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 10:23 am: Edit

Opps, double post. Sorry.

By Andrew Granger (Captaincf) on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 05:49 pm: Edit

OK, I am pretty sure this is not the right place, but where is the info on the Shriek?

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 06:45 pm: Edit

The shriek is listed in CL23, SL246.461.

By Andrew Granger (Captaincf) on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 06:55 am: Edit

Just to make sure, was that CL23 or CL33?

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 10:13 pm: Edit

Sorry about that, keyboard error CL33.

By Andrew Granger (Captaincf) on Friday, May 25, 2012 - 05:21 am: Edit

Thank you. Another item added to the buy list.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 06:23 pm: Edit

Tartan Army and I just ran through the Peladine vs the Tarter. The Tarter lost.

Turn 1 we came at eachother and I turned off just after firing oblique on his #6. he held fire and fired all his phasers and two F bolts at my #4, just barely bringing it down. We started to set up our next attack run and ended the turn at range 5 with me trying (unsuccessfully) to hide my down shield by turning.

Turn 2 I HETed and he obliged by launching his Gs. 3 of his 4 drones died to my facing gatling and the Gs took down my #6. He pumped fire into the down shield and I salvoed two overloaded HBs and a standard into him, not bringing down his shield until the last overload. Both empty, we seperated and I began setting up to pressure him with his empty tubes.

We called it here, since I was near-crippled and had a gatling and a HB left, and he had lost only two power and some fluff. I could have garnered a few more internals with my HB, but once his plasma were back, I'd be toast.


My conclusion is that the Tarter lacks the secondary weapons to make an overrun scary. Three hellbores is not enough to offset the 4 phaser 2s and the fragile hull. This might be a good hull to snipe with, being nice at ranges 8-22. But it can't take down a shield with it's phasers and Hellbores at range 8 the way the TLM can with fewer hellbores. One HB might be used to pad the other two, and then you're left with half the heavy weapons of any other ship, and no secondary weapons to augment that.

Perhaps instead of basing the HB-variant on a light cruiser going against command cruisers, you start with the Iroquios and remove a hellbore. Keep the pair of fighters (one might be scary, but most likely won't last to fire. When it does, it will take down a shield and die. Two can take down a shield and make a difference in the fight). This gives you the power to move and shoot at the same time, and the durable hull the Hydrans are known for.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 06:56 pm: Edit

The TarTar is absolutely horrible. The P2s mean it can't hurt anyone significantly outside of R3, and inside of R3, it is less effective than every other tournament ship. I mean, I credit the designers to erring on the side of caution, but as it is, it is completely unworkable. It would take a lot of effort to make it viable, and probably not worth the hassle.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 10:30 am: Edit

So after a long break, Barry and I played an Omega TC game the other night with the current version of the Alunda TC (10xBB, 4PW, 36 power) vs the current version of the Hiver TC (a version of the BC with 4xST [2xFA, 1xRF/R, 1xLF/L], 4xPW1, 4xPW3 and, like, 36 power with a 2/3 move cost; carries 3x Barb 2).

In the game, T1, we just tooled around as the Hiver loaded guns on the ship and fighters and we ended at about R8, so one shooting anything. T2, we closed, the Hivers faster than the Alunda, and the Alunda launched 3xW Whip Crack Torps (1 at each fighter). At R4, the Hiver shot with 1x double OL ST (off the TC) and 5x OL ST (2 off the ship, 1 off each fighter), 4xPW1, and a few PW3s. The Alunda shot back with 4x 4 point BB and 4x 1 point BB. The Hiver hit well with the torps (5/6, including the double OL), rolled bad on phasers, but still did about 56 damage. The Alunda rolled horribly, hitting with only 1 of the 4 point BBs (on 8's) and 3 of the 1 point BBs. The Alunda took 20+ internals, the Hiver lost most of it's reinforced #2. The Hiver team turned off, the Alunda turned off to keep it's down shield away from further fire. The WTs hit each fighter for 5 each. The Hiver ran off, the Alunda eventually turned around to follow. They end the turn at R3 with the Alunda kind of behind the Hiver, and the Hiver fighters at R1 after a HET. T3, the Alunda moves and arms some guns, the Hiver OLs most of its torps, rearms phasers, pays for a HET, and moves a 16/8/4 plot. Impulse 1, the ALunda kills off the 3 Barb fighters. Impulse 2, the Hiver HETs to R1, blasts the Alunda, cripples it, and we call it a game.

So the Hiver (which is the first time I have seen it played) is pretty dangerous as it stands--in non tournament play, Hivers tends to be smaller than comperable ships and make up for it by being overpowered (in the sense of having a lot of excess power) and having a bunch of fighters (i.e. a historically even match up is a Hiver CA with 4xB2 fighters vs an Alunda HS with WT refit, but the Hiver CA is basically a 1/2 move cost DD). In the tournament set up, currently, the Hiver TC is based on the 2/3 move BC, which is basically a war cruiser with regular TC shields (30/30/24/24) and about as many internals as most of the 2/3 MC TCs (more than some). And a lot of excess power (36 currently on the 2/3 move TC). If the Hiver spends its first turn arming overloaded STs (like disruptors, but hit on a 1-5 at R4, and you can hold OLs for 2 points), on T2, it can move, like, 24 hexes, hold 3 OLs, plot a HET, have tractors armed, and still have 4 or 5 power left for reinforcement. Which is a lot to be doing, and given that the ship is not significantly smaller than a regular TC and has regular shields, it seems a tad over the top.

Rather than having fewer fighters, as the Barb Fighters are fun and make the ship interesting--they have 14 damage points, move speed 14, have an ST and 2xPW3s, and come with 5 points of power. They can use power to go faster (1 power for +4 speed), arm their PW3s, arm and hold an ST (2 for a standard, 4 for an OL, they can hold it for 1 or 2 power), they can use 1 power for a point of shield (only 1), use power for a second HET in a turn, anti tractor, or in the non tournament game, more EW--I'd suggest making the ship a little smaller.

The initial suggestion is pull out 1xAPR, 1xIMP, and 2x Hull as a start.

The Alunda did extra bad due to rolling horribly on its initial shot. It probably would have been better to have gone faster as the Alunda and tried for a R2 shot--the Hiver is scary at R4, but not much scarier at R2; the Alunda is strong at R4 but a lot stronger at R2. Even if shot for 20 internals at R4, the Alunda can take BB hits on the rear BBs, use the ARF to try and pull the Hiver into R2, and mug the crud out of it at R2. I mean, it might not work, and the Hiver might not shoot at R4, but it might work fine too.