In F&E the only 3 EW point scouts are the SR, and X-Scouts. This creates a dilemna where your left with the choice of using a good 4 EW point scout when you really need it elsewhere, or using a 2 EW point scout (DD hull) and being at a bit of a disadvantage. My solution is to take the SR hull and just remove the scienitific teams from ship, thus creating 4 sensor light cruiser scout ship. There are no physical changes to the SR's SSD.

I realize this maybe something of an obvious variant. It would allow the ISC to convert CLs to this design at starbases. No 2 step conversions would be allowed and no converstion from this design the Heavy Scout (HSC (SFB) or CLS (F&E)). No changes in F&E factors from the SR except the loss of the survey team.

This design coupled with the power curve gives good EW performance against the plasma races, but in simulations and actual practice the HSC (CLS) was found to be slightly more effective against the drone using races with the 2 extra sensors to break drone lock-ons.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, January 26, 2013 - 08:32 am: Edit

I did forget the CSV, but that unit isn't available until heavy fighters appear.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Saturday, January 26, 2013 - 06:34 pm: Edit

And you are asking for a 4EW scout that doesn't cost a major conversion?? Does anyone else have one??

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Saturday, January 26, 2013 - 07:16 pm: Edit

He wants a 3 pointer so he can use the 4s elsewhere and not rely on the too weak 2s.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Saturday, January 26, 2013 - 09:37 pm: Edit

Actually, CWSs always have 3EW. From the Lyran CWS (which has 5 IIRC) to the D5S/SPC/F-NSC/G-HDS/etc (who most have 4).

If the ISC HSC (which has a CL power curve, but 6 Special Sensors IIRC), might warrant only having 3EW, not 4. So Thomas might have a point.

This CL is considered a "NCA" mostly because of enabling the ISC to compete against late-era battle lines w/ drones and PFs, not because it could compete with an NCA mono-e-mono (compare a I-CL/CS vs. K-D5W/F-NCA).

Compare the power of an I-HSC verses any other NCA-Scouts. The NCA-Scouts have much more power available than the I-HSC.

So my question, should the HSC really have 4EW, instead of 3EW? (Or does it only get 4EW as a balance factor so the ISC can compete w/ late-era battle lines, that's a possibility also).

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, January 26, 2013 - 10:24 pm: Edit

Perhaps the ISC could build a scout variant of the war cruiser from Module R9?

The only problem for that unit would be the timing; the Concordium didn't go into full-scale production of base hull CWs until after the Andromedan invasion crashed over their Pacification-era fleets, so a CWS wouldn't be of much use to them prior to the Y190s.

But then, if an ISC player is allowed to build "war" classes in an alternate scenario (perhaps in the "Paravian timeline" we'll get to see in C6?), they might have had the technical ability to field such units earlier, even if they were late to do so historically.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 12:14 am: Edit

Not saying "no", but it wouldn't be the only empire to have a whole in their fleet left unfilled.

If everyone had every nitch filled, we go back to cookie-cutter fleets. As long as it doesn't unbalance the game, there's nothing wrong with someone not having the same set of toys as others have.

Show that it's needed and not just another "I want this" item, and I'll be on board saying "yes", too. Of course, the only "yes" you need it from SVC.


Garth L. Getgen

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 04:34 am: Edit

The six sensors of the ISC Heavy Scout give the ISC an advantage with blinding sensors while keeping the defensive capability of their Plasma-Fs and Phaser-Is. The power curve between the NCA based scouts and ISC HSC isn't that big of a difference when you take into account the movement costs of the two types of ships. Yes, both the HSC and SR move a little slower than an NCA based scout, but then the ISC CL hull was designed and built in numbers before the NCAs were thought of, and on the drawing boards.

The only non-base and non-DN based scout to have more than 4 special sensors is the Federation SC based on the DD. That unit is a 4 point EW unit and its power curve is even worse. If you look at the YIS dates for the Federation SC and LSC, you will see they are both in the time frame of the Second Federation-Kzinti War. My theory (correct or incorrect) is that the Federation found the DD hull based SC with its 8 special sensors and the ability to break drone lock-ons with them of more value than the 4 special sensors and better power curve of the LSC.

Gary brings an excellent point to light in that this unit would be excellent for the alternate Paravian timeline or other alternate scenarios.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 12:16 pm: Edit

Why would one build a CL based, 3-8 3EW scout for 9 EP when one can pay 1 more EP and build a 4EP scout on the same hull? Is the CLS just "too capable" of doing the mission?

Seriously, the Klingons have the 4-8, 4EW D6S and it costs them 12 EP.

If your looking for a 3EW scout, then I'd wait until the CW (CWS) and NDD (NDS) versions are produced.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 12:34 pm: Edit

It's not the build cost or rate, it's the conversion ability. The ISC have 3 major conversions available via the 2 at Starbases in the capital hex plus 1 via the major conversion facility, plus the ability to substitute one, means they can produce a maximum of 4 HSCs (CLS) ships a turn. This elimates their ability to produce any other variant requiring a major conversion in favor of EW heavy units.

The ability to convert CLs to a 3 EW unit at other starbases and minor conversion facilities increases the number of 3 EW units while preserving the major conversions for other more expensive variants when needed.

The DDs are needed more for gunline capable units than EW platforms, plus the larger CL hull gives the unit better resistance to directed damage.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 01:38 pm: Edit

I should note that according to Module X1R, the Concordium does eventually reduce the number of sensors on some of their heavy scouts to 4... but only in the process of upgrading these hulls to advanced technology. (Even an X-scout only has so much generated power to go around, and the ISC saw a 4-channel advanced heavy scout as more able to use its power effectively than one with six.)

But it should also be noted that by the time the Concordium was converting DDs to CWs in their home space (or into NDDs out in the cantonments), they were also converting frigates into DWs (or NFFs), too. So, even if a destroyer (or destroyer-scout) hull is being turned into a CWS (or NDS), there would still be a number of destroyer-sized hulls on hand to go into gunlines in place of them.

(For the purposes of C6, I would sooner imagine the ISC needing the CWS over the NDS, since the latter is more tied to a series of cantonments that may or may not come to exist in the "Paravian timeline"; whereas the Concordium would have a more pressing use for the hull which can more adequately handle itself against the Paravians and Romulans in an open-space fleet environment.)

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 02:14 pm: Edit

The timeframe is between Y168 and Y175, where the only option is the DD based SC, but all the other empires have start developing their War Cruiser Scouts. The ISC are left with a huge gap and nothing to cover that gap.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 06:07 pm: Edit

Has anyone had an oportunity to playtest the (624.0) Gathering Winds scenario from ISC War, to see if the EW issue adversely affects the Concordium's operations in that time period?

Given the kind of formation bonuses the PPD provides to ISC echelons in F&E, and the higher ComPot values for many of their ships relative to those of their neighbours, I wonder about just how much trouble the Concordium is in during that campaign, even if faced with heavier Gorn or Romulan scouts between Y168 to Y172.

If the ISC are found to be running into significant problems in their attempts to secure their outer provinces, that might make a stronger historical case for an earlier SC3 scout. But if they managed to get by handily enough, they could wait for such ships to enter service later.


And in the Paravian timeline, one would imagine the YIS dates of the "war" classes to be much earlier; which might have a knock-on effect on the availability of any mission variants they may then feel the need to develop.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 06:23 pm: Edit

Why don't *you* playtest it? :-)

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 06:32 pm: Edit

I'm not in a position to do much SFU-related gaming right now, unfortunately.

(I would like to try that scenario out someday, if I could manage it.)

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 09:36 pm: Edit

Gary,

That's what Cyberboard, a computer, and LOTS of time are for...

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 06:35 am: Edit

Gathering Winds is not a very viable test bed. The ISC is prohibited from leaving their territory as they are building their outer ring of bases. As such any battles conducted will be in their territory. Most of the battles, as I see them, will be conducted over a MB being setup by a Tug or a MB being converted to a larger base. Thus the EW level will equal or more favorable to the ISC and not the Gorns or Romulans.

The Romulans do have the ability to play with their modular ships under (433.43). Thus they could probably "borrow" scouts from the other fleets.

The problem surfaces if you play or a create a variant where the ISC is on an offensive and attacking enemy hardpoints. While no empire has all the scouts they need, it is possible to force most empires and especially the ISC to use all their conversions for heavier 4 EW point scouts by directing on every 4 EW point scout you encounter in battle.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 11:20 am: Edit

F&E scouts with 4EW are deliberately rare and I see no urgent need for any more, and no reason why any one empire needs them any more than every empire.

There are a lot more to an SR than just "the landing parties" that make it what it is. You cannot just take those off and call it a scout. It's still an SR.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 06:05 pm: Edit

It's the 3 EW scout that the question was asked about...something that could be done at any SB that equals the neighboring CWSs (even though the 4EW NSCs are more the norm being used)...

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 07:27 pm: Edit

Before the the NCA Heavy Scouts. The Federation, Klingons and ISC can build or convert a maximum of 4 4 EW point scouts. Once the NCA heavy scouts become available the situation becomes magnified as every available War Cruiser Scout will probably and quickly be converted to the NCA heavy scout. And those CWS to NSC conversions are minor conversions.

In the area of 3 EW point scouts, in the early war years of Y168-Y174 the ISC do have any except for their SR which is limited to 1 per year.

The Klingons by contrast can build or convert 7 D5S scouts, and that is without using their major conversions.

The Lyrans can build or convert 7 CWS scouts and in the process either improve their 2 EW point DD hull based SC or converting the weaker DD hull to a tougher CW hull.

The Gorns can build or convert 8 HDS scouts if they have enough HD hulls available to do so given other conditions.

The Romulans can build or convert 7 SPC scouts during the normal conversion step, and the convert even more SP to SPC during movement using (433.43).

The lack of the 3 point scout coupled with the fact that Gunline groups need standard DDs and DEs leads to a potential mugging of ISC scouts. If you can kill every stand alone scout you encounter very soon the ISC will be facing a shift across the galaxy except for the few CSV, ACS, DCS, and PFTs in the battle force. The PFTs will have to be escorted, but that most likely applies to both sides.

edit:
The number of 3 EW point scouts is based on a conversion at every non-major conversion starbase and the 2 minor conversion facilities that each empire is allowed to build.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 08:47 pm: Edit

But if there is a scenario variant where the ISC is going on the offensive (in other words, is "at war"), would that not amount to a greater change to the construction schedule than the number of light or heavy scouts being fielded?

The ISC was the only major empire in the Alpha Octant that was still at a peacetime economy prior to the Y180s. (625.515) notes that the Concordium is considered to have been at the equivalent of a wartime economy for the last 10 turns prior to the start of the Pacification in Y186S; and even with this massive buildup, they still saw fit to stick with the "pre-war" hulls they had been using since the Y160s, and would not change their minds until forced to by the Andromedans.

The point you say about expecting to fight over a frendly base need not apply only to Y168-172. Prior to the idea of the Pacification taking hold, the ISC Navy would have been philosophically inclined towards a mostly defensive fighting posture, and so would have been late to the idea of needing larger fleet scouts. (Not to mention the relative lack of experience their navy would have; without the bitter lessons taught to the General War belligerents, the Concordium's naval officer corps would have less ingrained knolwedge about what doctrinal options work out, and what ones don't.)

But if an alternate scenario saw the ISC go to "real" war much earlier than Y188 (i.e. in the Paravian timeline), they would almost certainly have the "war" classes lined up to go much sooner. Technically, nothing would have stopped them from fielding HCWs, CWs, and DWs at the same time as their counterparts in the Gorn and Romulan (and Paravian) navies; without the premise of armed neutrality which kept the Concordium from being dragged into the historical General War, the perception of being able to afford spending more on the Pacification-era hulls to maintain adequate numbers would be out the nearest airlock.

And so, a Concordium which is pressed to start building "war" ships that much earlier would also be similarly pressed into using these wartime hulls as mission variants, such as a CWS.


(Which leads to another point; would a "wartime" ISC bother with a "true" new heavy cruiser, and thus have a base hull to turn into a MC 1 scout? If you look at the HCW from Module R12, it's about as mean as another empire's NCA already. Perhaps a scout variant of it might be a good enough option, if the Concordium really had to have a "war" scout bigger than a CWS? Not that I'm saying they would, or indeed should, mind you. But I suppose having the ISC be the only ones to bother considering a heavy war cruiser scout would at least be something "different"... just so long as it didn't end up opening the floodgates for yet another class of hulls to get no end of mission variants for all of the usual suspects in Alpha.)



And on the point of being able to mug an ISC scout or not, is it all that likely that an enemy will encounter one operating alone?

With the exception of patrol cruisers like the Star Cruiser, most ISC naval hulls would be encountered in larger echelons; and unless I'm reading (324.23) wrong, there's nothing to stop a medium or large echelon from putting a scout into at least one of its core positions (since the first would presumably be assigned to a PPD-armed flagship) in the absence of any of the mandatory core units listed in (324.22).

If that is the case, the Echelon allows the ISC to keep their scouts protected in F&E terms, even if it is at the cost of not having one more PPD-armed ship in one of those core positions.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 09:12 pm: Edit

Gary, I'm not suggesting a war class of any type. The ISC CL is basically their war cruiser because of the situation you described. Even with the Echelon your trading a CL for a DD scout which drops your compot from 8-8 to 3-6 in exchange for 2 EW points. Remember the SC can't be part of the Gunline Group if your using one. If your not using a Gunline Group your giving up precious firepower you need to accomplish your mission. And in that resprect the Gunline Group is sort of an empiral advantage much like drone bombardment and fast drones are to the Kzintis, Klingons, and Federation. It's not the best analogy but if you say the 2xDD are the Gunline Bonus ships then your looking at 12 compot, or the same as 1 round of drone bombardment before fast drones.

If the ISC is fighting you over your own hardpoint then killing the largest scout they have becomes a viable option at the cost of directed damage. It makes it easier to get them into a shift and the -1 shift negates the bonus of the formation, while a -2 shift means you take 2.5% less damage.

If you kill every heavy scout in range, then you will either have the ISC fighting with a shift, or lowering there compot by adding more scouts in the battleforce itself.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 11:31 pm: Edit

The ISC has got to have some weaknesses. Come-on, think about it...they get gunlines, up to THREE additional formation slots, echelon BIR bonus, tactical reserves, FREE repairs/fighter depots at pacification bases, escorts freely added to GL/BG formations. They can't have all of the above benefits and continue to have parity with other empires on everything else. They just couldn't foresee everything and it looks like they didn't see their "scout gap" until after the Pacification started...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 12:38 am: Edit

Actually, one thing that occurs to me, in terms of the Paravian timeline in C6; how many of the unique logistical tricks that the Concordium were able to develop historically would (or perhaps should) be available to them in that timeline?

Without the luxury of an extended period of peace to enable the required resources to be committed to these developments, it could be that the price the C6 Concordium might pay to get their war classes (and/or any mission variants that might stem from those base hulls) in an earlier time is the inability to develop the full array of options that the historical ISC had by the time of the Pacification.

Of course, that will be a question to raise once we eventually get a Lost Empires discussion thread up and running over on the F&E side of the BBS. But in a broader sense, I do wonder if, due to the need to confront the ongoing Paravian threat, there just wasn't enough R&D time and effort to cover everything.

So, even if it were ruled that the ISC weren't to get a 3EW heavy scout in the historical timeline (or if they had to wait until the Andromedan War in order to get a CWS, should such a ship ever exist), they could still get early access to something that can fill this role in the C6 timeline if it was deemed necessary. But perhaps only if this happened in a broader context, that obliged the Concordium to make tough choices about what other developments they would have to leave on the shelf instead.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 10:07 am: Edit

Gary makes some good points here, IF the C6 timeline becomes F&E compatible, this should probably revisited in connection with that.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 06:54 pm: Edit

Turtle, why can't the SC be in the gunline (other then it's using the scout slot)???

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 08:20 pm: Edit

Actually it can be in the gunline group, but why would you put one there? The answer is related to the quality of ships required to form the echelons with more core slots.

The non-x standard gunline group is better than than a non-x standard battlegroup. Only the Romulan and Lyran DWS units make sense in a battlegroup. And that is because of their ability to dial their EW level once the enemy's battleforce is revealed.

By putting the 2 EW point SC or even a second one in the gunline, assuming the free scout position is occupied by a CLS (HSC) then it just become easier to direct on that scout. 20 to kill instead of 36 to kill. While you have the ability to convert more DDs to SCs you really can't afford to. Your giving 3 compot to get the 2 EW and that's on the gunline.

Using the battleforce from Chuck's Formulations & Esquires topic as an /b{extreme} example. You see that the Klingons can amass fleets of 180 points of offensive compot and 20 points of EW. Even without using the SFGs to freeze ISC ships, any ISC fleet encountering those forces will be at -2 for EW. Granted it would be -1 as the ISC gets +1 for the Echelon.
To further illustrate this discrepency, the best ISC battleforce I've been able to generate so far to counter the above Klingon force totals 154 offensive compot and 7 EW points. Even replacing 1 DDX with one SCX in the X-Gunline group would not change the EW shift.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 09:30 pm: Edit

The CSVs (Heavy Fighter Scout) carriers of the other empires are rated at 3EW if used as a scout in the free scout slot in F&E. The are 2 EW units if used on the line as a carrier. The difference being you gain 1 point of EW, but the fighters on the CSV cannot be used and in theory could be lost if your opponent scored enough damage to kill it outright.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, July 26, 2014 - 07:03 pm: Edit

Chuck, based on your Formulations & Esquires example with the Klingons. The only empire I've been able to create a battle force to compete against them has been the Kzintis. And they use an all X Drone Bombardment ship battle group of 3xCDX and 3FDX to get an EW level matching the Klingon groups.

Granted, if you run into one of those forces at a severely disadvantaged level you are going to fight your required one round and run. Also, the example above is extreme and very rarely going to be encountered, but it is a possibility.

The more likely battle forces you will be facing include 1 3 or 4 point scout in the free scout slot and 1 or 2 DWS type units in a battlegroup depending on if you are attacking an enemy star base or defending your star base against such an attack. Plasma based empires are penalized more on the dial an EW level for their bases than non plasma empires.