Archive through February 10, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: Hellbores and PPDs: Archive through February 10, 2003
By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 03:42 pm: Edit

A PPD that knows no distinction between overload and standard load might be interesting. Basically it can fire 1-6 pulses, assuming power applied, with out the overload range restriction.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 03:45 pm: Edit

It strikes me that PPD and the Quantum wave torpedo have quite a bit in common. What if you gave the PPD an alternate seeking mode? It wouldn't be to hard to justify historically; the ISC is already a plasma user, and the Paravians did escape through what eventually became ISC territory.

By Dave Morse (Dcm) on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 04:23 pm: Edit

The ISC love for people to dash into the myopic zone. It usually happens right as they eat great gobs of plasma torps. PPD damage looks light in comparison.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 07:28 pm: Edit

Quote:

Wouldn't it be more flavourful for the PPD to do the damage it does now (possibly extended to R10 overloads), but fire for, like, ages?


You know I read that as "Aegis".


I actually like the Aegis idea better.

Let the PPD fire in a mode that allows it to fire in both the pre-DF-Hellbore step and the post-DF-Hellbore step.

If that were the only change to the PPD it might hold depending on how powerful the other heavies got, or we might need some other kind of effect to water it down, like because of overheating every impulse of fire shall have 2 ECM applied for every shot fired in the previous impulse.
Or maybe rapid mode can only work with standard loading or some such...

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 02:33 pm: Edit

We know how ineffective the PPD is vs. DisDevs (all but the first pulse is usually wasted). So from Y190-Y202, ISC scientists behind the scenes are researching a new improved PPD would focus on doing as much as possible on the first impulse. But the breakthrough didn't come until Y202, and new ships couldn't be built until Y205. (Which is a convoluted way of saying it's X2 technology)

Instead of firing 4 pulses in four implulses, the XXPPD fires 4 pulses in four aegis steps.

If the first pulse misses, roll again on the second aegis step, etc.

An OL could not be improved (still one pulse per impulse), but since the Andy would disdev away anyway, this was not seen as a major limitation.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 05:49 pm: Edit

Interesting, but very powerful. You would mizia a ship very badly and set a precedent we might not want to set. Namely using aegis against ships.

The ISC coped with andros by bulking up on plasma and bolting when needed. That's good enough for me.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 06:18 pm: Edit

Although not following most of these X threads, I would like to add one idea here.

I've always thought that PPDs, although a very fine weapon, needed 'corrective lenses' :) in future versions. That is, allow overloads out to range 10, and reduce the myopic zone from 0-3 to 0-1.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 06:38 pm: Edit

Quote:

Instead of firing 4 pulses in four implulses, the XXPPD fires 4 pulses in four aegis steps.


Either that of in the Pre and post DF Hellbore strps or in two of the four Aegis Steps...it really depends on how power the other vessels become.


Quote:

Interesting, but very powerful. You would mizia a ship very badly and set a precedent we might not want to set. Namely using aegis against ships.


We can technobabble out of it by saying that it was related to the Hydran Hellbore and thus other systems were never able to do it.


Quote:

The ISC coped with andros by bulking up on plasma and bolting when needed. That's good enough for me.


I know it's puitting the Cart before the horse, but if the X2 Andro have Sterio Phasers, then there may not be any chance of beefed up Plasma getting through without a bolt.


Quote:

Although not following most of these X threads, I would like to add one idea here.

I've always thought that PPDs, although a very fine weapon, needed 'corrective lenses' in future versions. That is, allow overloads out to range 10, and reduce the myopic zone from 0-3 to 0-1.


Perhaps that would be a good overload option to balance out with the other heavies depending on how much more powerful they become.
The ISCs may need some other kind of damage generator in addition to the four step PPD because when you're attaking a ship that is making it's primary attack, run, particularly with the amount of damage these ships can stop with BTTY ( and the possible Cap-to-SSReo ), that the ability to do the damage quickly of not doesn't do a lick of differnce, it's only in the rare cases, of the other hsip having either a weak sheild being struck and the ability to turn or a downed facing shield that the FAST-PPD becomes more useful over the regular version.
So maybe the rapid mode would be good for mizia-ing the teeth away of the enemy and but is handy capsed by only being able to fire as standard ( or fastload standard ) and the enhanced overload exists for the purposes of doing large quantities of shield damage early in the battle.

We don't even need to balance the heavies if we don't want to, we just need the BPVs to be similar.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 06:59 pm: Edit

Why would the Andros have stereo-phasers?

With their technological infastructure wiped out, why would Andros get X1 tech (yes, I know that proposed Andro X1 tech exists) let alone X2?

No reason I can think of.

Proposals like grouping the pulses tightly together or changing the myopic zone seriously change the behaviour of the weapon.

In the case of allowing multiple pulses in a round, what's the difference between hitting a ship with 2+8+2 and 2 pulses of 1+4+1 except you get the happy bonus of some mizia action?

You could do it. Expand the PPD's standard load to 6 pulses and give them one pulse on each hellbore step as well as concurrently with normal weapons fire (3 pulses per turn). It would be a vicious mizia weapon.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 07:55 pm: Edit

Quote:

No reason I can think of.



Theoretically, yes, but what about 1 pulse of 4+16+4 Verses 4 pulses of 1+4+1, as propossed.

That would be 8/9 of 2 phaser, 1 Torp and 1 drone, right?
For 1.77' phaser hits, 0.88' torp hits and 0.88 drone hits.

On the other hand , the 4 pulses would be.

4 x 2/3 of a phaser plus 1/3 of a torp and 1/3 of a drone for:-
2.66' Phaser hits, 1.33' torp hits and 1.33 drone hits.

That's a marked increase in the ability to take weapons away from the enemy.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 08:32 pm: Edit

Agreed it's powerful. The question is whether it's too powerful.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 09:47 pm: Edit

Quote:

The ISC coped with andros by bulking up on plasma and bolting when needed. That's good enough for me.



On the battlefield, yes. The ISC did what they could with what they had. But the researchers (who develop X2 for all of the races) would be working with a question of "How can we improve what we have to defeat the Andromedans" Will a couple of these gizmos show up on X1R? Maybe, maybe not.

I agree it'a a powerful improvement. Not improving the OL is part my idea for keeping it under control. But ISC ships are always supposed to be slightly better than other race's ships of the same class.

One thing's for sure. An X2PPD that works the same as a regular PPD, except for the fact that the fire is on 4 aegis steps instead of 4 impulses, that definately passes the KISS test.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 10:15 pm: Edit

Please answer the 2X poll I have started. It may help focus debate and start the first round of playtesting.

(Sorry for the spamming)

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 10:47 pm: Edit

It's dangerous ground because to use Aegis steps is to imply Aegis usage. it's too confusing.

Using hellbore steps avoids this problem even if we only get 3 pulses/turn.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 10:48 pm: Edit

Duplicate post. sorry.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 10:57 pm: Edit

John T. Like I said I'm sorry for Spamming. But the Thread for the 2X Poll might just get Overlooked. So I placed notices in all the active 2X threads. For maximum exposure.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 11:08 pm: Edit

Quote:

It's dangerous ground because to use Aegis steps is to imply Aegis usage. it's too confusing.

Using hellbore steps avoids this problem even if we only get 3 pulses/turn.



That's my thining but I think it's unfair to give the PPD 3 pulses straiyht off the bat and not getting giving the Hellbore something like that kind of improvement.

Is there any way that the hellbore could be free to fire in the Pre DF step and the Post DF step AND also be free to fire in an enveloping manner during the Direct Fire Step? Or would that have problems with reguard to Damage being spread around?
I would say take the dame as was before the Hellbores kicked in, but is that too much like just another pre DF step...but I thionk with the Enveloping Hellbore internal damage in the DF step being added to the other DF weapon internal damage points as a single volley then that may make it not seem like we've just invented another pre DF hellbore step.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 11:24 pm: Edit

My hellbore proposal gives it a small amount of additional DF damage (roughly equal to 1/5 the damage) to the facing shield during the pre-DF HB step.

That should do very nicely.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 11:38 pm: Edit

I'm not sure if leading edge splash damage would fall under the KISS principle.

Coupling the DF and Hellbore fire during the DF step as one volley seems to me to be enough of a change, remember, it seems WEIRD to give the race that didn't have ability X ( the ISC ) the ability in one tech jump to do better than the ability of the race that did have the ability to do X ( they Hydrans ) and also had that one tech jump.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 11:43 pm: Edit

Trying to split the Hellbore into three mizia volleys isn't exactly simpler.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 11:48 pm: Edit

It is for a ship with three or more hellbores.

I am not saying that any one hellbore shot should, could or would be split...and you shouldn't imply that I am.

Admittedly Hellbore damage is mentally taxing but it's already part of the game so it's not much to provide Hellbore using ships with three oppotunities to apply the math per impulse over the usual 2.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 12:02 am: Edit

But the reason that enveloping hellbores are separate from every other firing opportunity is so you don't have any confusion with "weakest shield" rules.

If XPPD fire is simultaneous with hellbores, then you run into a problem of "if an XPPD and a hellbore strike the ship at the same time, do you count the weakest shield before or after counting the PPD fire?" Or, do you have to figure out the hellbore damage twice, and let the target choose the damage configuration? Fails the KISS test.

If 4 pulses on four aegis steps isn't aesthetically pleasing, then just make the four pulses hit simultaneously on the direct fire step. Either way, you have a system with RPS advantages over the DisDev, which was the point I was trying to make when I posted earlier.

By Dave Morse (Dcm) on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 12:21 am: Edit

FWIW I like the aegis idea. I like the idea of making it only inside range 8-10.

Since we're talking about the PPD, I think its time, come X2, to do away with the rear-firing F torpedo. Y'd think with like 40 years they could "invent" something to give them swivels, perhaps at the cost of their vast numbers.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 12:40 am: Edit

The rear-Fs are ISC racial flavor. Not many other races put a heavy weapon back there.

They were put there to defend ISC ships against fighter/PF squadrons. And the ISC still thinks the Galactics are crazy enough to go back to them despite the casualty rates.

I think the rear F-torps / L-torps should stay on the ISC ships.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 12:50 am: Edit

Quote:

But the reason that enveloping hellbores are separate from every other firing opportunity is so you don't have any confusion with "weakest shield" rules.

If XPPD fire is simultaneous with hellbores, then you run into a problem of "if an XPPD and a hellbore strike the ship at the same time, do you count the weakest shield before or after counting the PPD fire?" Or, do you have to figure out the hellbore damage twice, and let the target choose the damage configuration? Fails the KISS test.



I beleive I already covered that.

Quote:

I would say take the damage shall be applied to the shields as was before the Hellbores kicked in, but is that too much like just another pre DF step...but I think with the Enveloping Hellbore internal damage in the DF step being added to the other DF weapon internal damage points as a single volley then that may make it not seem like we've just invented another pre DF hellbore step.


Resolve hellbore damage before other DF damage and then apply the damage of the facing sheild to the DF damage.


Quote:

The rear-Fs are ISC racial flavor. Not many other races put a heavy weapon back there.

They were put there to defend ISC ships against fighter/PF squadrons. And the ISC still thinks the Galactics are crazy enough to go back to them despite the casualty rates.

I think the rear F-torps / L-torps should stay on the ISC ships.


Swivel mounts...swivel mounts....

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