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Kosta,

No, we haven't had a proposal for a fusion seeking weapon.

We've had MJC's thing, Loren's gatlin fusion and my focus-fusion but that's it.

Care to give it a try?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, October 05, 2007 - 11:29 pm: Edit

J.T.:

You're evil-mike now?

I like the Fratracide Fusion Overload...you know sometimes I could really kill my borthers.
It teases out more use for the fusion beam which probably shouldn't be said for the Hellbore which is much better and if the Hydrans still insist on running around with fusion-fighters then having a fusion armed lead vessel will help break-up the enemy fire on the fighters.

Conversly a speed 32 seeker for the fusion would have difficulty hitting targets in this speed enviroment. You might have to look at a speed 64 seeker in order to keep the damage track as it is and still hit targets. Fusion beams run out of puff quicker than plasma-Fs. You'ld probably also have to look at finding a semi random damage with the seeker and you'll need to ask youself a bunch of questions about phaser fire drone fire and mutual impacts with plasma and ESG effects which a DF fusion wouldn't have to deal with. You'll probably have damage of 1D6 against results of 1 = 1 , 2-3 = 2, 4-6 = 3. And then when the target ship moves it could move away and thus might shift up to a higher range bracket.
You don't want to make the seeker too good or it'll become the only way the weapon gets fired nor do you want to make it too weak or it'll never be employed.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 10:36 am: Edit

Hydrans have always had a seeking weapon. Its called a Stinger.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 09:47 pm: Edit

Yes...well spotted.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Tuesday, October 09, 2007 - 11:44 am: Edit

Very true in the past, but does this hold true in the X2 era?

From what I've seen thus far, all other major races have determined fighters are obsolete in the X2 era. And with the rules that have been discussed around here, that assessment appears correct.

For some of the same reasons (the inability to get to point blank range in the X2 era to deliver a world of hurt like you could in the past), the same can be said about the fusion beam.

So what do you do about it? Should Hydrans be any different from the others, and somehow manage to build an improved fighter, as well as better fusion beam (a hellbore?) that can hold their own in the X2 era?

Or should the old Hydran doctrine undergo a radical change? Perhaps they take a different path, building on their previous technology. I'm not sure which way to go, but I don't think you can stay with the status quo.

One way to go may be to let the Hydrans develop UnHydranned Space Vehicles (USVs). They look like mini-stingers but are much smaller because they don't need a life support system, so there are WAY more of them (24 on a cruiser sized hull, 12 on a destroyer, 6 on a frigate). They come with 2 fusion beams and a gatling, without any fancy new weapons. But they are very hard to hit because of their small size, so they can survive the X2 era to get to point blank range and deliver the hurt.

Alternatively, there is my suggestion for a "fusion torpedo" seeking weapon. I see this as building on fusion beam and hellbore technology. Think of a seeking weapon that moves at the speed of a plasma torp (whatever that is in the X2 era), has limited range (16 impulses?) can be destroyed by weapons fire (say 10-20? points), but is smart enough to hit the weakest shield of its target for about the damge done by a non-overloaded hellbore. Perhaps you can overload it for more damage, but at the cost of halving its range.

So what do you folks think? At this time, I don't think we should bog down in the specifics of what a "USV" or a "fusion torpedo" does or doesn't do - that can wait until later. But we can discuss if there is any merit to either of these suggestions.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, October 09, 2007 - 02:49 pm: Edit

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Quote:

From what I've seen thus far, all other major races have determined fighters are obsolete in the X2 era. And with the rules that have been discussed around here, that assessment appears correct.

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By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, October 09, 2007 - 03:49 pm: Edit

I don't recall the YIS for the F-14D, but it's sometime in the 190s. So more than a decade after the initial introduction of X-ships, the Feds were not merely continuing to deploy fighters, but continuing to improve and upgrade them.

Also, though the Feds don't have X-fighters, they do continue to deploy "standard tech" fighters on some X-ships, notably the GVX. And the Wyn have some X-ships with "casual fighters".

That being the case, I don't think it's all that implausible that the Hydrans, who are more closely associated with fighters than any other race, would continue to deploy them even on X2 ships.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, October 09, 2007 - 04:29 pm: Edit

X2 ships are going to struggle against the vast number of drones that can be launched, and an X2 ship ignores St-XM to their peril. Fighters will still have their uses, but primarily (exception: Hydran) as part of a fixed defense.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, October 09, 2007 - 10:56 pm: Edit

To a certain degree the idea that X2 ships can out run seekers is false.

If a Fed XCA has 8 more warp power (48) and two more AWRs for a total of 58 instead of the CX's 48 (choosing my high end vessel because it's high end). Even if it ignores paying for the ASIF to gain speed:-
It still finds itself paying out 5 house keeping (S-Bridge included) plus 8 EW plus 24 Photons for a battle speed of 21.
The Stinger-X (an X1 Fighter) moves at speed 20 without booster packs. And the Fed is likely in battle to need to recharge his phaser caps and BTTYs after a few turns.
Have the XCA run a low powered ASIF and it might find itself moving at speed 16 near those speed 20 fighters.

Hydrans will find ways of using X2 fighters...even if it is just to hang around until after the "mothership" tractors the enemy and performs ED. Even an XCA moving at 21 will at best find herself moving at speed 11 after a tractor-ED combo and then the fighters can come screaming in to point blank range.
Hydrans will find ways of using X2 fighters!

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 07:39 am: Edit

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Quote:

It still finds itself paying out 5 house keeping (S-Bridge included) plus 8 EW plus 24 Photons for a battle speed of 21.
The Stinger-X (an X1 Fighter) moves at speed 20 without booster packs. And the Fed is likely in battle to need to recharge his phaser caps and BTTYs after a few turns.

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 07:54 am: Edit

Yeah...well running was not in my thinking when I typed my explaination.
Side-stepping was.
A Fed NCA can really pull out of range of against a stinger-2 if her captain dumps arming the phot-tubes and she makes running her main intention.

The point is, the opponant can't make an offensive posture and still out run stinger-Xs so stinger-X2s should do just fine.
Besides the R5 reach of the Stinger-X fusions (under X1) is quite a surprise to opponants.
The enemy either deals with the fighters and then attacks your ship or he attacks your ship gets tractored or crippled or both and then gets hammered by your fighters. It's still the same basic dynamic as GW battles, just that 10-18 extra warp engine boxes over GW levels needs to be compensated or by fighters that are somewhat faster than a Stinger-2 and to some extent have longer reach (perhaps hellbores instead of Fusions or just relying on the R5 extention to the fusion range). And rapid pulsed Ph-6 shot deal out their damage at longer ranges than rapid pulsed Ph-3s (which can be dealt with by either making the fighters tougher or make their weapons longer ranged).

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 10:01 am: Edit

With the Hydrans history of moving form the nova cannon to the fusion beam to the hellbore, would they continue on with radical weapons changes? a couple of suggestions, First Stellar Knife Swarm, where more energy added produces more knives, all fired at the same time, roll to hit for each knife, damage based on range. The Hydran could then tailor the amount of energy they apply to the weapon depending on tactical needs. Perhaps the interaction with ESG would be similar to the hellbore. Second the FI-Fu torpedo, a fusion torpedo completely remote controlled an adaptation of fighter technology to their experience with plasma weapons during the general war. The torpedo would be completely controlled like a fighter has a pilot in a remote control seat flying it. But in all other aspects it would act like a plasma torpedo. They would launch through the launch tubes and take up shuttle space a torpedo rack like drones. But can launch one per launch tube.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 04:07 pm: Edit

Fighters are not Obsolete in X2, the doctrine changes radically.

It changed significantly from St-I to St-II. (pre refit ships were pretty darn slow, St-Is actually had an easier time of it in my opinion)

It changed radically when WBP were invented.

It REALLY changed (not for the better) when PFs appeared.

I have no idea what fighter ops look like in the X2 era, but whatever rules are needed to make them work will happen. Hydrans simply are NOT going abandon fighters.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 05:38 pm: Edit

So if we want to talk about X2 fighters, there's a topic for it.

Back to Fusion Beams.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 08:47 pm: Edit

Well, it is kind of a related topic, as together they determine Hydran tactics, but I take your point.

So this leaves a couple of questions that need considering:

1) Should there be a change to the fusion beam in the X2 era? I'd say yes, because the old tactics that it encouraged would not seem all that feasible in the new era - at least not against other X2 ships. It is barely adequate in the GW era, only made useful by the fact that the Hydrans have fighters to keep the enemy partially occupied while the mothership closes in.

2) If the answer to Q.1 is yes, what do you do about it? I'm torn here. I don't know if a radical change is the way to go, because that loses the classic feel of the Hydrans (my favourite race to play by the way, although the Gorns are a close second). You can turn the fusion beam into a longer range direct fire weapon, but you already have the hellbore for that. My suggestion of making it into a seeking weapon - and perhaps replacing both the fusion beam and the fighter in Hydran doctrine - while intriguing seems rather radical.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 09:15 pm: Edit

Just my 2 cents, but for the fusion to remain a usefull weapon against other X2 ships, it's going to need either a really big increase in crunch to make it worth the effort and pain of getting close to use it, or it's going to need some sort of extended range.

Loren's gatling-fusion is great for option A; big damage, combined with a good shot at a very nasty mizia. Trouble is, getting close enough to use it without getting spanked. Even with new goodies like ASIF's, regenerating shields, and S-bridges, you can expect another X2 ship to bash you REALLY good if you try to get close. A Fed with 20 point overloads will knock you down badly at range 4, taking out any shield you have and doing some pretty hefty internals...and that's with only three hitting. If four 20 point photons hit, well, you're pretty much done....never mind if you have 24 point ones, in which case you'll likely explode.

So, what if you took the Hydrans one way, and gave them only one heavy weapon...one that combines the range of the Hellbore with a damage profile similar to a fusion? Give it two firing modes; direct, and eveloping. Direct acts like the classic fusion, but with a better range profile. Still kinda short compared to other weapons, but not as ridiculously short as the classic fusion. Enveloping works similarly to the current Hellbore, but with a twist; it uses a single D6 instead of two (less EW immunity), and the "extra" damage to the shield is randomly determined.

Just a thought...take it for whatever it's worth.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 09:55 pm: Edit

Well I'ld disagree about getting close.
If the Phaser weapon suite of an X2 Hydran is 12Ph-1s and the Phaser weapon suite of the X2 Fed is 8Ph-5s then the ability to dishout killing damage for the Fed at R4 is something of a wash.

Plus with say 21 hull boxes under ASIF (the LBX had 21 C-hull boxes) and 48/40/40/40 shields and five 3 point BTTY boxes and is hit under an oblique with EW neutralising the Fed's EW (both have 8 EW) and being fired under by 6 bearing Ph-5s and four 24 point Photons at R4; the Hydran will take 30 points of damage from the phasers of the Fed and 64 point of damage from the Photons for a to internal volley of 39 but because 4/9 of all the internal damage will be doubled (assuming my ASIF design) those 39 internals will be (wow 39 divided by 13 (8/(4+9)) goes evenly) 24 points against 12 C-Hull boxes and a further 15 to other SSD boxes for a total of 27 internal boxes lost. The likely hood becine that one tractor will be lost by this attack not all.

Meanwhile those 12Ph-1s will mean 8 bearing Ph-1s at R4 for about 32 points of damage itself.

The Hydran XCA-Fusion will not be clobbered as easily as one assumes.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 10:54 pm: Edit

I guess my 12 week headache is getting to my math ability.

If 4/9 of the 39 damage go to hull and the hull boxes die half the time due to the ASIF then 17.33 point would likely strike the Hull. If we count these as being 17, 9 actual hull boxes are lost and the remaining 22 points of damage go to other non-hull SSD boxes.

Still even if the EW siuation wasn't neutralised and the Fed got a negative one shift with those 24 point photons and there was no ASIF running because the ASIF power was directed to tractors or something.
30 point of Fed phaser damage against the Hydran plus 80 points of Photon damage (5/6 x 4 x 24) would seem massive at 110 points of damage.
But with BTTY and Shields taking out 55 of that, it's only 55 damage and then when 44% of that goes to C-Hull, it's 24.44 points of damage to the hull (It might actually have 24 C-Hull boxes because the LBX had 21), it might, just might be a crippled ship...but it'll probably still have only lost one tractor!

If the Fed wants to win, he needs to peel the onion before he makes his point blank range attack run.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 11:36 pm: Edit

You know, at range 1, the ability of a fusion beam to inflict 9.5 points of damage in overload mode (for 4 points of power) is a better performer than either a Photon or a Disruptor.

With the fratricide overload, it's 19 damage for 10 points of power which isn't that far off an X2 Photons crash-fastload of 8 points of warp power providing a 16 point photon. It just destroys itself and one other SSD boxes and has no feedback damage.

The question still remains, can it get to that range? And the other big question, would six held overloads from the previous turn save enough power to get you close enough to have that R1 shot...or is it better to arm up five fratracide overloads and organise a mid turn speed change, so the other guy comes in for the kill and then find your wounded ship leaping up to make R1!?! Or is it better still, to run up to R1 at high speed with no fusions armed and then tractor-ED and let the 6 Stinger-X2s kill the enemy ship???

Here's a link to my Hydran XCF-Fusion vessel to see what kind of thinking I'm under.
And the Fed XCA it should be measured against.