Archive through March 19, 2013
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Tournament Zone:
Omega, Magellanic, and other TCs:
Archive through March 19, 2013
Played Josh Driscol in a playtest game. I was in the Worb Playtest TC and Josh was in the Gorn TC.
Game went for 7 turns which is normally a good sign of balance, but this was a plasma battle.
The current build of the Worb TC has the following specs.
1) 40+5 Power
2) Turn Mode E with Breakdown 4-6... I just called my ship Cant_Turn...
3) 26 Point shields all around. Light for a tournament ship, but the ship is incredibly thick inside. Lots of internals.
4) A single Turret Amidships with the following firing arcs, FA, LF+L, RF+R. The turret contains a single subspace rocket launcher. One Anti-Proton Lance, Three Anti-Proton Beams, and a pair of Antimatter Phaser 1s.
5) Outside of the turret there are the following weapons systems.
a) One AP-1 LS
b) One AP-1 RS
c) Two AP-3 FX
d) Two AP-3 LS
e) Two AP-3 RS
f) A single Subspace Energy Field device.
The Worb is like the Wyn Aux in that it's quick, but can't turn or HET... It's got the worst turn mode in the game of any tournament ship, but makes up for a lot of that with it's turret system.
In this game, I started at the top of the board and on the first turn, rotated my turret to the left and charged down the middle. I had started the game with the Lance charged up in Beam mode, and pumped up the SSR to max power.
Impulse 1.26 we reached range four. The Gorn should not have allowed me to get that close. At that point I fired an alpha strike of everything that would bear.
Four APB, Three AP-1, and the SSR. The APBs and AP-1s hit that impulse and did 38 damage to his front shield doing eight in.
His return fire was poor, he bolted two plasma Fs and fired 3 Ph1s. One of the bolts missed and he rolled poorly on the phasers doing a measly three internals.
The next impulse, the SSR hit... and importantly, it hit on the same shield... I had arranged it so that no matter how he moved, unless he used a HET, he was going to take the SSR on the same shield as everything else.
The SSR did another 20 in which hurt him. Didn't take him out of the game, but he was hurt at that point.
At that point, we played plasma run away and weasel games until turn about turn five. During this time, he was whittling away my shields with plasma and phaser fire.
At that point, I decided to eat his next EPT phasering it down appropriatly so that I could build up speed and chase him down.
On turn seven I had almost caught up to him and he was at range seven but up against the south edge of the board.
I poured on the anti-matter and charged in. Surprisingly, instead of running and chucking another EPT, he star castled and chucked the EPT.
Standing still is a bad thing to do against a Worb because of two things. A lot of the weapons are short range and the SSR loses a lot of accuracy against a rapidly moving target.
So, I closed in to range four and fired the SSR. At that range the SSR hits on the following impulse and since he was not moving the hit number was 11... Almost impossible to miss.
The following impulse, I got to range three and fired four APBs and three AP-1s... All the Heavy weapons hit and I did a total of 68 points of damage between my heavy weapons and phasers. This is less damage than a Fed Heavy would do, but after the 28 previous internals he had taken, it ripped the stuffing out of his ship.
Amazingly, I was able to run away from the EPT, and phaser it down some. When the EPT hit, I took three internals. My ship was almost virgin on the inside at that point, and I had two repairs left. I was capable of repairing it back up to full capability. On the other hand, my shields were in bad shape. #1 and #6 were gone. #4 was down to one point. All the other shields were heavily damaged.
On the other hand, his ship was a mess on the inside.
He had 19 power... No batteries, he had exactly half his weapons left. No repairs left either. He had used the PPT on his only remaining plasma S launcher and had used his HET. So he resigned at that point.
Not sure that he had to lose on that last turn though. He had a pair of SS shuttles arming the whole game. He got them out of the bay on the final turn, but the worb has a really nasty defense against shuttles... The SEF.
Not sure that the Worb is overpowered, since it gained an initial advantage at the very beginning of the game and the Gorn was fighting an uphill battle the rest of the game.
Was there any difference in the Worb ship compared to the one you used in the January 2011 report posted here?
From the looks of it, it seems that both plasma ships ran into the same problems; letting the Worb get too close, and learning the hard way that slowing to a crawl in order to try and ride out what the Worb can dish out at close range is not recommended.
Has the Worb ship had much experience yet against other Omega TCs, or against Alpha ships using a different (i.e. go faster and try to keep the ranges open) approach?
When it comes to turret operations, it would be interesting some day to see how the different types of turret rules out there (and the different weapons mounted therein) would play out on the tabletop.
For example, the Imperium out in M33 have turrets on their ships, which mount their hulls' heavy weapons (hypermass autocannons), and on hulls which are far more agile than your average Worb ship; but on the other hand, the built-in limitations of the HAC as a weapon (in that each weapon box on the SSD counts as a separate chamber of the same weapon, but no chamber can be fired within four impulses before or after a shot fired from any of the others) means that Imperial ships have problems trying to concentrate fire in any given impulse.
So, if the Imperium were to ever get a tournament version of their playtest CA from CL23, it would have a very different set of problems relative to the Worb ship.
Barry and I played another Hiver vs Alunda game last night. The Hiver got downgraded a bit since last game (losing a couple hull and a couple power), and we swapped sides--I was the Alunda, Barry was the Hiver (as previously, the Hiver TC is a 2/3 move cost Hiver BC with 4xST, 4xPW1, 4xPW3, a lot of power, and 3x Barb 2 fighters).
T1: We both move middle speeds. He launches his fighters, I kinda corner dodge to fill up my bio bolt capacitor a lot. Nothing gets fired and we end the turn at about 18 hexes apart.
T2: I move some sort of 16/31/16 plot with an ARF held and a total of 23 power in my capacitor. The Hivers all move 22. We close in. Early in the turn, I launch 4x whip crack torps, 2 at each of two fighters and we close in. Right before the plasmas hit, they are mostly wiped out by 10xPW3s off the ship and fighters. One fighter is hit for 4 damage. We close in--I figure that the Hiver is very scary at R4 (where the Sting Torps start hitting at 1-5), but not much more scary at R2, where the Alunda guns get a big boost, so I close from R5 into R3 on the way to R2. The Hiver and fighters shoots me in the face with 1x Double OL ST, 5x OL ST, and all the phasers that bear. He rolls well on his torps, hits with all of them, and does a total of 68 damage. I stop 5 with battery reinforcement and take 34 in. I lose 10 power, 2x Bio Bolts and a plasma whip, but am mostly still viable. I close into R2 the next impulse and shoot back with 5x 4 point BBs and 3x 1 point BB. I hit with 4 of 5 heavy bolts, and do 60 damage, doing 30 in to the Hiver ship, which also loses about 10 power, a torp and a couple phasers. I also hit him with the ARF on repulse, trying to push him away, but roll a 5 on the to hit, meaning the maximum range is 3 hexes. We fly past each other, I push him off a couple hexes, but then he uses an allocated HET to spin around and chase me as I slow down to 16. I launch a couple shuttles and keep him off my down #1, but we end the turn with his fighters at R1 and his ship at R2 off my #5.
T3: I only have 3x Bio Bolts I can fire this turn (as the other 5 are cooling) and my plasma whips don't cycle till impulse 6 or so. I plot 0, a TAC, speed up to 8, and put 12 power in my capacitor. We both announce speed 0. Impulse 1, my #5 is hit by 3x standard STs from the fighters (as they can't fire an OL within 32 impulses of another OL) and a giant pile of phasers from the fighters and ship (I think 8xPW2 and 2xPW1). My only return fire is a couple plasma whips on his damaged fighter from my shuttles, which manage to kill it. I take another 15 internals or so, putting a giant hole in me. NExt impulse, I TAC to get all three of my available BBs into arc and fire 3x 4 point BB at him at R2. If I hit with all three, I do 36 damage on his 24 box #3. Instead, I hit with 2, which just brings down his shield. If I did a dozen more into the cruiser, I might have a fighting chance. But missing, I got nothing, so I surrender.
Indications are that the current Hiver TC is likely too powerful. As the Alunda is pretty powerful, and the Hiver just schools it.
The Hiver has incredibly accurate, powerful guns (the Double OL Sting Torp does 12 damage on a 1-5 at R4. Which can fire every turn.) and with the fighters, it has an insane, consistent, damage output at R4 or closer. In non tournament play, the balance factor is that the Hivers have a lot of cool, fast fighters, but their mother ship is half as big as a regular ship. The TC isn't much smaller than a regular TC, and still has all the extra power and fighters of a standard Hiver ship. So it can swap huge alpha strikes with an opponent, come out not any worse than its opponent, and then still have the fighters on the map for the next turn engagement.
My suggestion is scrap the current ship and start over with a 1/2 move cost smaller hull. Give it 3xST (FA), 4xPW1 (2xFAL, 2xFAR), 4xPW3 (2x360, 1xRAL, 1xRAR). Possibly lower shields than standard (24/24/18/18?). Try it out with 4xB2 fighters and adjust as needed.
Now mind you, I suspect that the current Hiver TC has only ever been played twice, and only against the Alunda. But as it stands, I think the Hiver TC is going to own the Alunda in every fight, and as historical enemies, getting that fight balanced is probably a good way to start.
The way the current ship works, at R4, the Hiver TC (with 3xB2 fighters) is going to outshoot the Alunda. At R2, it is going to outshoot the Alunda. At R5+, where the STs only hit on 1-4s, it is still likely going to outshoot the Alunda. When the ships swap alpha strikes, they take similar internal damage, the Hiver takes 30 internals without much problem (it has C hull and a lot of excess power). On the next turn, the Alunda is waiting for half its guns to cool off while the Hiver can shoot everything again.
In non Tournament play (Alunda HS vs Hiver CA with 4xB2, which are almost the exact same BPV when refits are included), this works out ok, as when the ships swap alphas, the Alunda takes the 30 internals a lot better than the Hiver CA takes 30 internals (as the Hiver CA is half as big and has 20 some odd box shields instead of 30), and the second turn follow up from the fighters can certainly even the game out at that point.
In the tournament situation, the current Hiver TC is about as big as a standard TC (well, a little smaller, but it has the same 30/24 shields, and more internals than, like, the Orion, TKE, or LDR), so takes a hit just fine. So the ship might work out with it is currently and losing one of the B2s (leaving it with 2xB2), which is probably worth trying out before scrapping the whole ship. But really, the Hiver's main selling point is the fun fighters (which are much less devastating individually than a Hydran Stinger, doing at most, like, 16 damage on a R1 alpha strike; but are a lot more flexible and survivable. But still, shooting one for 15 damage will blow it up outright), so it seems more in line with keeping them interesting to go with a smaller mother ship (and maybe an extra fighter) than just giving them a pretty much standard TC with fewer fighters.
One question about the Hiver is, if you blow up the ship but there are still fighters left, is the game over? Normally the game would be over if the ship is gone, even if there are shuttles left, but the Barbs aren't shuttles, they're frigates!
Another thought on the Hiver: It may do really well against DF ships, but what about big plasma/big drone ships? Sure, it can do a lot of damage if it can just park and double overload the STs, but it lacks "terrain" generation to influence its opponents' position.
I do agree that a smaller hull makes sense, although a more reasonable 2/3 move cost hull should be easier to balance than a 1/2 move cost hull.
Andy wrote:
>>One question about the Hiver is, if you blow up the ship but there are still fighters left, is the game over? Normally the game would be over if the ship is gone, even if there are shuttles left, but the Barbs aren't shuttles, they're frigates! >>
That is certainly a good question that would have to have an answer if the ship were ever official. I suspect the reasonable plan (especially if the ship is demoted to a smaller one) is that the fighters count as ships on the map (but not admin shuttles).
>>Another thought on the Hiver: It may do really well against DF ships, but what about big plasma/big drone ships?>>
I've always gone with the "Omega ships are never going to work drones correctly, as they were never designed to in the first place", I dunno and am not worried about it. But that is me :-)
I suspect that it'll do fine against BP, as it is fast, accurate at R7, does solid damage, and has fighters to help in an anchor/overrun situation. Against drones, with the fighters, it has, like, 10xP3s. So I imagine that the current one would do reasonably well against drone ships as well.
>>Sure, it can do a lot of damage if it can just park and double overload the STs, but it lacks "terrain" generation to influence its opponents' position.>>
The thing is that it doesn't need to park. It has a ton of excess power, and can hold OL STs. It can easily move fast on the first turn with multiple OLs. If it fires them, it does the same the next turn. If it doesn't, it goes even faster as it is now holding them for half the power--it can easily get 3xST into arc of an opponent. At R4, they hit on 1-5s, to 8 damage each, and one can be DOL'ed off of batteries for 12 damage instead. The fighters can move speed 26 while firing repeatedly standard ST (or holding an OL).
It is kind of like a Fed. That fires every turn. I mean, I don't think it is insanely overpowered currently, but certainly stronger than it probably should be. And might have some bad matchups out there that are yet to be considered. But still, pretty dangerous.
>>I do agree that a smaller hull makes sense, although a more reasonable 2/3 move cost hull should be easier to balance than a 1/2 move cost hull.>>
Oh, certainly. It is possible that the current 2/3 mover with only 2xB2 fighters is probably a reasonable start as well. But then, well, it is just kind of being a Hydran. And not maximizing the entertainment potential of the Hivers.
Andy,
I was writing a post on this board where I mentioned the same point about ship blowing up and fighters don't count so game over. Than my computer crashed before I pressed the post button. 
As for the Double Overloads, it takes seven power for each shot... Five on the final turn if your double overloading a held overload.
The 2/3 mover is going to have a lot of trouble double overloading more than one sting torp.
As a general rule, the fighters can't overload the sting torps on the turn they are launched, unless they go really slow.
There is a 32 impulse delay for firing overloads from the fighters. Also, arming overloads and rearming the phasers takes all of the power for an undamaged fighter. This means that the fighters typically only get one shot of overloads per game.
The idea of 24/24/18/18/18/24 shields is a bit light. Maybe 26/26/20/20/20/26...
I'll start the editing to build the TCA version of the ship.
It will have the following weapons.
1. Three Sting Torps FA
2. Two PW-1 FA+L
3. Two PW-1 FA+R
4. Four PW-3 360
Power is 26+4...
I'll put in four Barb II fighters.
Had some more thoughts about that battle...
If the previous battle had been fought with the suggested new build. The Hivers would have had one additional sting torp and two extra PW-3 for the first volley.
Yes, the CA would have been worse gutted in that first exchange, and assuming that the extra PW-3s would have fired at whip crack torps and the extra sting torp missed. The situation would have changed as follows.
The Alunda would have been facing four most likely undamaged barb 2 fighters on 3.1..
The Hiver CA would most likely have survived, exploding the volley on 3.1, barely, but the Alunda would have most likely taken additional damage that turn.
Not sure if the Hivers would have won the game at that point... Very possible.
The following turn,
Yeah, it might be prudent to have the Hiver CA version have 3xSTs, that are 1xFA, 1xLF/L, 1xRF/R.
With the 4th fighter, it will have that same non centerline firepower, more or less, as the current version.
New Federation Playtest Tournament Command Cruiser Proposal
The idea is simple, take the normal Federation TCC remove 2 FA Photons and replace with 2 Plasma F launchers with FP arc. This is identical to the heavy weapons on the DDL and NAL classes which served on the Romulan border. If the ship looks like it’s going to be much weaker than the standard Fed TCC I would give it the G rack treatment also.
In some ways the ship is weaker than the standard TCC, but it’s also going to have a much different power curve which I hope will let it outrun more of the enemy’s seeking weapons freeing up more Phasers for offensive use. Another advantage I see in the new TCC is its ability to take torpedo hits on F launchers and still be able to launch for 8 impulses after the launcher is destroyed, and there a bit faster to repair as padding for the 2 die hard Photons.
I’ve talked to a number of players about the idea and most find it intriguing. I wanted to get more opinions on the concept and maybe some discussion on tactics for the new ship. My goal was to keep the new Fed TCC roughly equal to the old but change the dynamics of some of the really bad RPS matchups hopefully in the new Feds favor.
I am against any Fed TC armed with a main weapon other than the photon torpedo. Feds use photon torpedoes as their main weapon, not plasma torpedoes, rare variants not withstanding.
Someone wanting to mix photon torpedoes with plasma can find some joy in the Orion TC.
It does make it much more resistant to the luck of the dice, but I suspect it is weaker. PPTs on the plasma are likely to be necessary but insufficient. So as you say, G-rack.
Not that I expect or want it to be sanctioned, of course. But it looks like a worthwhile experiment.
Scottish Engineer (Vari) vs V_Raptor (ISC)
Through two turn so far:
T1: Vari goes 21/20/21 (on 12 and 22); ISC goes 15/24 on 24. Closed ranks, on 1.13, ISC drops plasma (fake). On 1.16, Vari hits the ISC with 5 PBs at range 15 for 10 on the ISC #1. We continue to close slowing, playing flanking games. On 2.25, fires the PBs again (overloaded off battery at R8), hitting for 12 to the #2. ON 2.26, slipped into RX and shot the last PB and the P-PB for 3 (off the probe) on the #6. On 1.27, dropped 3 stable PP1s into the fake for 15 points off the warhead. It eventually impacted on 1.30, revealing the fake. Same impulse an enveloper was launched. Turn ended with the ISC at R10 chasing me off my #3 with the enveloper in front of it. Had him right where I wanted him .. I thought. 
T2: I plotted 15/21/19 (on 10 and 25), he plotted 26/17/12 (on 5 and 23). He closed and took his PPD shot on imp 1 (hit). I'd slowed to get the turn mode and to let him close a hair (into overload range). First two pulses hit my #3, then turned and took the last two on my #4. During 1.1 and 1.2, he also got me with 3 P1.
Spent the next while keeping him on my #4/#5 edge as I tried to run out the plasma a little. On 2.4 I took my overload shot with the tail PB on his #1 and missed. On 2.9, I used a stabilizer and shot the left side PP1s and my FA+L PB at his #1, missed with the PB, hit with the phasers for 4. On 2.11, I got a R7/R1 shot with the P-PB for 3 on his #1. On 2.12, took a second overloaded shot with the tail gun, hitting for 4 (overloaded off of battery).
On 2.14, he dropped a 20 pointer out of the other G-tube. On 2.15, I fired 3 PP3s, rolling a 4,6,6 for a total of 5 points of damage (2.5 off the warhead). On 2.15 it hit doing 18 (3 off each). I spared the #3 which has been torn up by the PPD off battery.
Next dozen impulses or so, was me running out the G torp a little. This gave separation as the ISC turned away. On 2.20, I took a dodgy turn to get 3 PBs (2 paid for, one my last battery) on his #6. Hit for 4 at R6. He dropped the right-flank F that same impulse. Not really wise of me, admitted. Next couple 3 impulses, I managed to keep the plasma at R1, and shoot with all the P1s I had left. Ended up taking off 9 total (the last shot was a P1 at R1 for 1 ... sigh. The G hit for 11 on my #4 in 2.24, exactly taking it down after the PPD damage. The F hit in 2.28 for 15 on my #5. I turned in.
Current situation. My capacitor and batteries are drained. My PBs and P-PBs are all going great. Got 4 ammo left in both. I'm at R11 on his #3. His left (facing) F is probably coming at my very soon. Every other plasma is has been fired within the past two turns. His #1 and #2 are at half, his #6 is scratched (by 4). My shields are at 27/25/8/0/4/27 and he's off my #2.
Does the Vari ship have any particle splitter torpedoes; and if not, would it be worth considering adding some in?
So, I'm 90% sure that the Vari TCC predates CL23. Either way, the CC and it differ on a number of points. It's also priced at I believe 182, so I'm not shocked it's taken some hits. They were, from memory:
* The armament is different (6PBs and no PSTs)
* The power curve is different, but frankly I'm not shocked there. The actual CC swims in power.
* Fewer batteries (but in line with other TCs)
* Different L/R vs. Center warp (though same total warp -30)
* Different APR vs. Impulse ratio.
* It's more FA focused then most Vari ships from memory
* Fewer PP1 and more PP3s than normal (I believe it swapped 2 at 1:1)
* Much weaker shields all round.
* The TCC has two built in stablizers which are mighty handy in plasma defense.
* It has less and a different distribution of hull.
Here's my thoughts so far ... I love the Vari in fleet engagements and dog-piles. One on one duels, they tend to be weak. I prefer the PBs over the PST as it's near useless in a duel. Just have to run it out to the 9th hex and it drops 50%+. I'm pretty sure that a Klingon could gut the thing in two turns with R8 overload shots. You're going to get hit and hurt doing it, but you'd give far better than you got. Unlike most ships, the Vari can almost guarantee it's going to split its damage over two shields. While the PBs are frequent hitters, they punch isn't so hot. Had I gotten all 12 shots in (requiring two spline shots 8+ impulses apart), I'd average 24 points of damage for 18 points of power. Far less with far more effort than the Klingon can pull. In order to get the crunch, you've gotta hit hard with the phasers and as you're not guaranteed a hit WITH stablizers outside of R3, that's going to have you taking a lot of damage before you get there.
To some extent, my concern here may be addressed with SLIGHTLY less than average rolls.
Haven't taken any internals yet, but without labs as a racial quirk, the padding on the boat is pretty light. Most hits are going to hurt. It'll retain power fairly well I think, but as it could put 34 points of power in to fully load it's weapons every turn it's still going to be painful.
But wouldn't the point of launching the PST at longer ranges be to help thin out incoming waves of seeking weapons? With the relatively unreliable particle phasers a Vari ship has to work with ordinarily, the ability to target incoming drones or tachyon missiles at a distance would have its uses.
Historically, a Command Cruiser commanding a force of older Vari ships would have plenty of spare power to run out torpedoes at the higher arming levels, while a Wing Cruiser might prefer to use the bulk of its PST firepower in a close-in brawl.
(Actually, the WC itself might be an interesting alternative candidate for consideration, if one wanted to work "up" rather than "down" from the historical CC.)
Gary,
I totally agree with that policy, especially with the higher energy rating (I wanta say the true CC has 49 power?) but with a 40 power TCC, I HIGHLY doubt it's worth 3 points of power over two turns to take out 2 drones. It's certainly not worth 6 to take out 3 or 9 to take out 4.
That said, I think given the counts of TMs, phasers with the stabilizer are a fine option. Against drones, this thing is just going to get eaten alive by drones. It's got 6P1 and 4P3. Two P3 (with the stabilizer) are needed to confirm a kill on a Type I (or Type IV) drone. Unlike the Alpha P3, they have a 1/3 chance to take out a Type I at R1 with a single P3. Given the way that stablizers work, if you managed to fire every phaser on the boat at a drone, in a Zin 10-stack (all Type I) and used every one of your phasers in defense, you'd average still taking 56 damage from the drones (P1s will take out a Type I 2/3 of the time and a P3 will take it out 1/3 of the time. Notably, there's no hex on the ship where you can get all 10 of it's phasers in play at once, so the actual damage would be higher.
Against plasma, the PSTs wouldn't buy you anything so if you were you trying to add something for seeking defense, give the ship another half-dozen P3s (or more shuttles as realistically the WW is your best defense option).
Mike
The current Vari TC is, IIRC, the result of a bunch of upward tweaking of the original. I think the current version (5+1 Particle Beams, 7xPP-1, 4xPP-3, 2xParticle Probe, Particle Stabilizer) was generally regarded as mostly reasonable in the Omega tournament that we had a couple years back--not super strong or anything, but playable against comparable (i.e. Omega) opponents.
On paper, it looks not horrible, but probably tough to win with in a lot of fights. 6x Particle Beams can do a lot of damage if you can avoid getting overrun, but it is going to have a lot of trouble against drones and big plasma can probably just run it down and mug it to death (but then, I'm a big proponent of only worrying about the balance of Omega vs other Omega, fully realizing this is a minority opinion).
Peter, I agree ... against Omega it's fine ... principally because of the lack of a significant number of seeking weapons. Even though everyone seems to have a plasma weapon, there's not a huge number ... at least till you hit the Alunda with the refit ...
In a non-fixed map, I think it would be fine. If they can keep the range open, they can mug you to death from a distance. It's ugly when they cannot run and they cannot defend against your weapons. Give me a Vari retrograde ANYDAY.
Even the Alunda can only shoot four tiny, 5 point plasmas which are rarely more than a minor hassle.
The Omega ships are remarkably difficult to balance against drones due to their weird phasers that regularly fail to kill type I drones. Which is fine against all other Omega ships where, at worst, you are going to see a couple Tachyon missiles that take a lot of damage to kill anyway, so you were going to have to fire 3xP1s at them regardless of their weird damage curves.
The annoyance there is that it's a 20 point bump in their (stuff I need to worry about) output for effectively zero cost. The whips were great self-defense weapons that were a nice bump within very short ranges, but easily accounted for. The torps have longer legs, even if the damage is not great.
I agree with you on the balancing issues there. With the Vari in particular, a P1 will kill a Type I 2/3 of the time, but could kill it almost 3 times over when it does.
I wonder if you could enforce that ALL phasers were always stabilized. It'd allow you to add more without worrying as much about the obscene output of an exceptionally good set of rolls. It filters out some of the quirks/personality of the weapon I guess ...
Perhaps an option might be to replace some of the Vari ship's current set of particle phasers with PP-2s?
Mike wrote:
>>The annoyance there is that it's a 20 point bump in their (stuff I need to worry about) output for effectively zero cost.>>
In non tournament play, WhipTorps cost 2 BPV per launcher (i.e. a HS with that refit costs 8 points more than one without, which seems completely reasonable); in tournament play, all playtesting of the Alunda ship (that I am aware of) has used WhipTorps and the balancing takes that into account.
>>I wonder if you could enforce that ALL phasers were always stabilized. It'd allow you to add more without worrying as much about the obscene output of an exceptionally good set of rolls. It filters out some of the quirks/personality of the weapon I guess ...>>
That's certainly a possibility, but then pretty much all Omega ships have balancing issues with Alpha seeking weapons, specifically 'cause they were designed in an environment that didn't have them. Rebalancing all the Omega TCs to work against drones and big plasma has proven to be difficult. Over and over again. I don't know what a good solution is (other than just assuming that Omega ships will only fight other Omega ships).
I was mostly speaking from a power/usage standpoint rather than a BPV standpoint. Still, at 2BPV, it's a pretty good deal. If you've got it to spend, I'm taking 2 over those over a T-Bomb almost every day.
As for the Omega vs. Big I agree with you. You're going to get some wild disparities. People upset either because their weapons result in them either dominating or being dominated by a seeking concept. I agree that segregating them may be the only way to achieve a balance aspect. However, I'm not sure that that's even possible there. Unlike Alpha where there's parity at a ship level pretty much across the board, there is definitely not in the case of some Omega powers. When I look at the Paravians or the Peladine, I see races that could easily have been viable full-scale races for the length of the General War. I'm not seeing the Ymatrians ever being a long-term player. They got their run, they ran into something better and got schooled. I think that Omega model makes a great story, but I'm not sure how it does for good balance.
Mike wrote:
>>I was mostly speaking from a power/usage standpoint rather than a BPV standpoint. Still, at 2BPV, it's a pretty good deal. >>
Oh, sure. I mean, it does cost a point of power, and take away your Plasma Whips for another 32 impulses (in practice, at least from a tournament duel standpoint, launching WTs often ends up biting you in the arse, such that in many, many games as the Alunda, most of the time, WTs don't see much use), but yeah.
Again, with the TC, all the tweaking and testing was done with WTs as part of the deal, and works out pretty well. The Alunda turned out to be overpowered when it had 12xBB and 4xPWs (and resultingly, I mangled everyone in a single elim tournament with it), but the current version with 10xBB, 4xPW and 36 (IIRC) static power seems pretty reasonable.
>>If you've got it to spend, I'm taking 2 over those over a T-Bomb almost every day.>>
I think in the context of the non tournament game, it is just part of the Alunda--generally speaking, in a historical context, when the Alunda get WTs (and the BPV upgrade), the Hivers get, like, the same number of B2 fighters, and I think the B2s are a better upgrade overall. I mean, yeah, if you have a squadron of Alunda and can launch, like, 10xWT at a closing force, they'll be awesome. But in general, I think they are totally a reasonable addition at 2BPV per PW.
>>I think that Omega model makes a great story, but I'm not sure how it does for good balance.>>
That is certainly an issue--from my experience, excepting the Drex (due to their Supercomputer issues, as well as their HCH's being kind of insane) and the Sigverion (as that are very much one trick ponies), the Omega 1 ships balance pretty well as TCs. Some are a bit better and some are a bit worse, but they all mostly work ok as a group. Once you start getting into the fringier and weirder Omega empires, things do, indeed, get wonky.