Having played SFB for a very long time (since the 5x9 booklets), I have had a long time dissatisfaction with the Fed's primary weapon the photon torpedo. Namely it's severe luck dependence... It does massive damage IF it hits, but it's severely luck dependent. This is exacerbated by the fact that it requires 2 turns to arm.

We are all familiar with the R8 4 OL shot - if the Fed gets lucky it's game over, regardless of skill/tactics, etc. The Fed's entire game typically revolves around getting to R0-1/2/4.

So... What if...
*Ships/Bases* (does not apply to fighters/PFs), receive a die modifier depending on # of photons (regardless of type) fired in a single impulse.
1 = +1 to hit (improves odds)
2-3 = no modifier
4+ = -1 to hit (reduces odds)

This means that a Fed unloading 4 photons at R8 now would only hit 1/3 of the time (each), seriously reducing the probability of a R8 jackpot (from ~6% to ~1%).

Similarly, the Fed now has the potential to "snipe" with a single photon. Which opens up some interesting tactical possibilities.

A change which reduces the (luck-dependent) jackpot, while opening up some tactical options would IMHO be beneficial.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, June 21, 2013 - 12:25 pm: Edit

I could see this as something used in the X2 period, but not before.

However, at range eight, accuracy is already an issue, I don't think a penalty to hit is in order, in any time period.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, June 21, 2013 - 12:38 pm: Edit

Beside it being way to late to make such a fundemental change (but not up to me of course) I think the R8 jackpot think is not the whole tactical picture. Indeed, it is a small piece and any player who chooses that option is just trying to wrap up the game quickly. If you were a real Fed captain with the lives of your crew and your ship on the line the R8 crap shoot would be your last option (and one you might find yourself up for review on if you survived).

So taking the R8 crapshoot is simple not exploring the Feds tactical options.

If you REALLY want to win with Feds then the real tactical value of the R8 crapshoot is the threat. Feds can also play the 2+2 system with juditious use of reserve warp. I've done quite well with a long range game using Prox photons. Nothing is worse than starting a main engagement with a front shield at half strength.

Feds are quite capable of playing at all three ranges IF they stay on their toes and don't get greedy.

So, I would not want the rule to change because it provides one of the most valuable tactical lessons in the game, self control.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, June 21, 2013 - 12:47 pm: Edit

I'd be somewhat concerned as to what this kind of change might mean for other photon users out there.

If this is addressing an issue which is solely a problem for the Federation, where would that leave the photon-armed Tholians or Orions? Or the Federal Republic, for that matter? (In their case, do light and heavy photons also count for this? And if not, why not?)


And if such a rule were to be brought into SFB, would it then need to be retconned into other games like FC as well?

Federation Commander already slims down some of the weapon options compared to Star Fleet Battles; photons there have no proximity function, for example. But if this mechanic were fundamental enough a change to affect every firing of the weapon in SFB, would that not lead to questions as to how that same weapon is implemented in the other game systems?


I don't necessarily agree with the concept in and of itself, but I felt it worth noting the potential knock-on effects which such a rule change might make.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, June 21, 2013 - 01:35 pm: Edit

The two core weapons of SFB are the Fed photon and the Klink disruptor.

The photon gets you by slamming into a single shield and doing enough internals that the fed will survive the next turn+ to do it again. This is definition of "crunch power".

The Klingons have developed the disruptor into the "saber dance" where the Klink uses its maneuver advantage to whittle away at the same shield over multiple turns.

Taking the ability to strike with all photons away puts the feds in the position of trying to saber dance with a D turn mode to keep a single shield in arc over multiple impulses. If the Fed has to ration out its photons to get the full benefit of the photons rather lousy ht chances, it becomes a broken ship, highly DISadvantaged to win on average.

The jackpot tactic is a no-skill win, true. But it's also a no-skill lose. The Fed has the same chance of hitting with all 4 photons (1 in 16) as whiffing with all 4.

Ultimately the answer here is to play with EW.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Friday, June 21, 2013 - 01:44 pm: Edit

I have played Rom vs Fed for a very long time.
Yes some times the Fed gets lucky with a range 8 shot. I am sure he would rather not take the chance at that range. The fact is a lot of the time that is the only shot you will get. I hate bolting my plasma but at times it is the only shot i get. If i get lucky and hit with all four. (15+15+10+10=50) does that mean we should disallow bolting plasma? four overloaded photons does 64.
The photon torpedo as is is part of the game. It is the weapon that saved the federation keep it as is.

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Friday, June 21, 2013 - 02:07 pm: Edit

While the Photon always seems very luck dependent in the 1:1 game, in a fleet, it tends to balance out to a reasonably consistent hit percentage. I think that your proposed change would have a lot more effect on the fleet game, especially with EW taken into account then in a 1:1 tourney game where there's no EW to worry about.

By Brett W. Johnson (Bjohnson) on Friday, June 21, 2013 - 02:49 pm: Edit

Couple of points...

1) the comparison with bolted plasma is not relevant. Plasma has *multiple* modes of fire - standard, envelope, fast load, shotgun. In any non-bolt mode, there is no randomness to contend with. The photon (other than it's very limited utility prox torp) has only 1 fire mode - no real tactical flexibility.

2) In fleet mode, it would make multiple ships firing 1 each have a higher chance to do damage (thus higher expected). However, as in 1 on 1, the ship can turn to bring a fresh shielld to bear.

3) Giving the Fed a minor penalty to hit with all 4 photons does *not* mean it has to saber dance. Against a capable player, a Fed has a decent chance of losing a photon before it gets to R=4. Given my suggestion, the Fed could fire a photon at R=8 and have a 67% chance of hitting. It then continues to close to range 4 (or closer) with 3 OLs. If it loses a photon prior to firing, no biggie - because it has already fired.

If you *really* want to see how the photons disrupter battle works, play with the old ships - weak Klingon rear shields, plotted movement, no overloads. That was a really fascinating battle dynamic...

4) Very relevant comment about non-Fed ships... It would give a small advantage to Orion's who take 1 or 2 photons as long as they dribble them out 1 at a time...

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, June 21, 2013 - 03:04 pm: Edit

Brett W. Johnson:

I am sorry, but your point #1 is flawed. The photon has tactical flexibility in that it can be held, can be held while overloaded. Can be overloaded over multiple turns allowing power to be diverted to other functions. Can be fired while partially overloaded (again allowing power to be diverted to other uses). And every photon launcher mounted on any mobile platform larger than size class 5 has a maximum range of 30 hexes.

Your second point breaks down in the age old problem of "in SFB, Offense Stacks, Defense is Static." That is to say that you can focus all the firepower of a fleet, squadron, or even a single ship in one impulse on one target, but the target's shields are no stronger if it is fired on by one ship, or a dozen ships. While Mizia has advantages that cannot be disparaged, masses of firepower blow holes in things.

I will confess that I always enjoyed the plotted movement games, but then I liked the dynamic of "Fifth Frontier War" by GDW even if it was fatally flawed (one side could not win, the other could not lose unless he really worked at it).

As to your final comment, why not simply act like your ship is a disruptor ship and just fire (if you have four tubes) two photons every turn and have done with it?

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Friday, June 21, 2013 - 03:05 pm: Edit

Well since the odds are the same of going 0 for 4 then we really need to try and increase the hit chances. No seriously the photon is fine. Yes you can get a clean kill at range 8, but not likely. I have played Feds since what 1978. I take many range 8 shots, mostly in fleet games. In single ship games, You use it as a threat to gain position by forcing the other ship to turn off. SFB is a game of numbers, you shoot for the averages, not the jackpot.

It is fine

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Friday, June 21, 2013 - 03:07 pm: Edit

Brett,

In regards to your point #1, what about prox loads and overloads? You have more flexibility to trade power curve and hit numbers than you do with many weapons.

In regards to your point #2, fleet battles (regardless of empire) tend to include sudden escort destruction as an aspect of the battle. If you have to drag your fire over 4 impulses, I'm going to make you split it on multiple shields. That's going to be a large change.

In regards to point #3, it enforces a specific tactic limiting a lot of the choices you have now. Also, I've seen feds struggles to get into R8 with an opponent any strategy that requires them to hit R4 is going to be very hard on them

As regards #4, not just Orions. A fair number of Tholians have 1-2 Photons thrown into their blend.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, June 21, 2013 - 03:26 pm: Edit

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Quote:

1) the comparison with bolted plasma is not relevant. Plasma has *multiple* modes of fire - standard, envelope, fast load, shotgun. In any non-bolt mode, there is no randomness to contend with. The photon (other than it's very limited utility prox torp) has only 1 fire mode - no real tactical flexibility.

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Quote:

4) Very relevant comment about non-Fed ships... It would give a small advantage to Orion's who take 1 or 2 photons as long as they dribble them out 1 at a time...

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By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, June 21, 2013 - 05:35 pm: Edit

[Being silly here]

Fed match ups can be the quickest ones ever. It requires one die, no map, no counters, no SSDs. The game starts by rolling a narrow salvo of four fully overloaded photons. 1-3 Fed wins. 4-6 Fed loses. Game over.

I prefer the alternative tactics but it can be fun on a lunch break.

Another fun lunch break game is "Ten Marines!". Just need a die and the Marine causalty table. Each side has ten marine squads to start. You then fight it out to the last squad (or ten turns). Jokes and Seargent Slaughter imitations add to the fun. If you have pencil and paper you can do tank battles for a longer game. (One rule mod that works is 50% damage means 50% compot.)

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Friday, June 21, 2013 - 06:07 pm: Edit

MY comment on the use of the bolt analogy. Was to prove that just because some times one gets lucky with a shot from weapons is no reason to change them so they can not get lucky again.
As far as i know most good players of SFB do not rely on luck to win but strategy and tactics. New players tend to because they do not yet know the strategies that they can use to win the game.
If you want to get real about things i think that the wild weasel should be removed from the game. Then however i like plasma and the weasel is part of the game.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, June 21, 2013 - 10:02 pm: Edit

It can also be a challenge to try the luck shot and survive failure. If you have a legit out you might just go for it. Or if your enemy is on the run and is going to escape OL range.
But then if you get lucky its really the enemies fault for getting into OL range of a fully loaded Fed.

The main value of the fully OL'ed Fed is the deterent factor. Without the luck shot there is no deterent (or much less).