Not sure if I have the right place to post this, but...

Has anyone (or is it published in a CL) come up with a treatise on minefields and bases?

Like, if you are using a standard mine package, what radius would you deploy them?

Vs. Feds?
Klingons?
Etc.

What if it's two packages? Or Six?

Would your mine deployment vary depending on what you were trying to protect? Like a BATS? Or a SB?

I don't see minefields talked about too much...

By Michael Kenyon (Mikek) on Tuesday, June 03, 2014 - 04:20 pm: Edit

The tactics manual has a section on this topic and several term papers have proposed options for both setting up and tearing down fields.

Generally they were hitting specific points like attaching chain mines to your controlled mines, etc. Or were racially specific (Lyrans vs mines = goodness).

I'm unaware of anyplace that consolidates this wisdom.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Tuesday, June 03, 2014 - 04:26 pm: Edit

I think there was an article in some CL that described mine tactics in more detail than the page in the Tactics Manual.

My concepts:
Radius: Have most of the explosive mines set at just outside the primary weapon range of the enemy: i.e. range 8 against most overload capable DF enemies and range 10 against big plasma or PPD equipped enemies. Any further out and the minefield is too thin. If the opponent has enough firepower to take out the target from range 30, don't play the scenario; it will be boring.

Changes to minefields: add more command captor mines if a base is available to control them. Longer scenario can often improve effectiveness of phaser and heavy weapon captor mines.

Change to ground base purchase if minefield is available: Seeking weapon and enveloping weapon bases look a lot better if the opponent is slowed down and suffering minor shield damage. Without a minefield, heavy weapon bases are difficult to justify.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Tuesday, June 03, 2014 - 06:01 pm: Edit

My thoughts on minefields:
Setting up:
- I like to have a couple packages set to hit them at range 15 from the base. Most heavy weapons (particularly Disruptors and Hellbores) are starting to be effective at this range, and some attackers might decided that is the range to bombard the base from.
- I don't like to set mines to hit seeking weapons or fighters (except perhaps captor mines), as that is too easy a way for the attacker to discharge the minefield

Tearing down:
- Using (unvoided) wild weasels (M2.143) are an excellent way to clear a lane through a minefield. The power not going into speed can then be used for a brick against the base's weapons. If several ships use their weasels in this fashion, you can clear a safe lane through a minefield much faster than a minesweeper can.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, June 03, 2014 - 06:30 pm: Edit

ESGs make good minefield clearing tools. If you're a Lyran.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Tuesday, June 03, 2014 - 06:43 pm: Edit

I think the OP wass looking for '1 package should be set between 11-15 from the base but this will need some extra large mines for coverage. [Remember that the belt is at best five hexes wide (M6.331)]'

ESGs do make sweeping easier (Lyrans, LDR and larger Orions with 2+ ESGs)

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Tuesday, June 03, 2014 - 08:33 pm: Edit

Sweeping a minefield with ESG can be quite risky if the opponent is willing to gamble on having multiple mines in the same hex. Pull off having the opponent hit 3 NSMs at the same time and the opponent not only loses this battle but will never try another ESG sweeping operation.

Weasels are good but they are prime targets for fire from the base's phasers as are mine-sweeping shuttles. Phaser IVs don't need much help but this is one case a base might consider using ECCM. Most mines will be swept by normal ships out of necessity after the minesweeper takes shield damage and is forced to withdraw. The minesweeper should manage to detect most of the captor mines sitting a few hexes beyond the explosive belt region.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Tuesday, June 03, 2014 - 09:21 pm: Edit

Ok...You are a Kzinti BATS base commander, on the Klingon border, and you get a message from the Patriarch that says, "Hey Tiger, here's 2 mine packages (M6.2) for you to deploy around your BATS as you see fit." And a minelaying freighter shows up with the goods.

You are expecting a Klingon attack in a week.

How do you deploy your two mine packages?

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Tuesday, June 03, 2014 - 10:12 pm: Edit

I'd deploy both packages at the range 14-18 range. Klingons have the disruptors to pound you at range 15, where your phasers aren't likely to do as much to them. Especially since their disruptors don't get any better until range 5.

You want a little bleed-over past the optimal range of your opponent (i.e. range 18 here) because he's not likely to bull through the minefield if your phasers and fighters are waiting for him to get closer. Once he hits the first one, he's likely to slow way down, which is really the whole reason for mines (slow the attacker down so the defenders can use their weapons for a longer period of time). And then having mines behind him (he's at R15 and the mines go out to R18) makes his swing out to pull away from the base (because of damage or to reload) more complicated.

You want the captors as close to the base as you can manage (range 8 with the above suggested setup) because it makes them denser and harder to reach to sweep. I prefer heavy-weapon captors, because you get an immediate benefit from them, bt it really depends on who your opponent is going to be (phaser captors if you're up against plasma, because they can reduce the incoming warheads. Seekers if you know the opponent has to close to be effective, otherwise they will just run your captors out of seekers or otherwise mitigate them).

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, June 04, 2014 - 12:00 am: Edit

What form of attacking force should be expected? What other assets do the Kzinti have? With a BATS and 2 minefield packages, the Kzinti have about 400 BPV. I will estimate Klingon forces as having 4 D5s (or variants) since that makes for simple math and is very effective for similar BPV.

Kzinti small ships and fighters would likely mean the Klingons also have additional units. Also, drone upgrades could be expected for both sides.

I would place the minefield at Range 8 - 12. Disruptors are a problem at range 15 but the base could have 12 ECM including special sensor. I would expect an average of 1 point of damage per disruptor per turn because of the shift or about 16 points of damage. If the base has a power module, the combined 12 batteries should prove effective at limiting damage to shields. If the Klingons want to win in a reasonable number of turns, Klingons must overload.

At ranges specified, there were be 30 large mines covering the 60 hex circle at range 10. With uniform mine placement, the attacker would typically enter explosion radius for 2 NSMs and 6 small mines. Captor mine placement and orders depend on what other assets are available. Command captors I would try to place about 5 hexes from the base so they could fire on whichever part of the field gets breached. I would like to have a command controlled small mine to encourage the opponent to spread out drones and give more opportunities to the BATS ADD.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Wednesday, June 04, 2014 - 09:17 am: Edit

Six months ago, the Lyrans came screaming across your border, destroying all of your border BATS with overwhelming force.
The Patriarch says now the Klingons have been spotted preparing for the same.

You have your loyal fighter squadron, and the Frigate that was a garrison ship was ordered to pull out. The Patriarch's orders are to make the Klingons pay for their advance, redirect civilian shipping closer to Kzintai, and to pack your family and non-essential personnel on the next transport home.

It is the Patriarch's desire that you deploy your minefield in a way that maximizes the spill of Klingon blood as you give yours.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Wednesday, June 04, 2014 - 12:01 pm: Edit

Buy command detonators for all your captor mines. Use Disr variants only (three Disr that don't need power supply is just better than a B-rack!) Deploy one per hex on and as close to the base as you can. These will make a range 15 siege uncomfortable.
Large command explosives go on the range 7 hexspines, stacked with regular large mines. These make overload passes uncomfortable - 70 points plus a Disr volley will wreck a ship. Cover these with small command explosives but only use if you can't stop WW clearing with weapons.
Spread some more large automatics around the range 7 ring.
The remainder of your mines go inside that. Remember to leave a safe path for each size class, though these don't have to be the same.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Wednesday, June 04, 2014 - 12:20 pm: Edit

As an aside, I once chose Lyran for a campaign solely based on the expectation of minefields - and then built the STL primarily to clear them. 4 ESG plus a mauler worth of shield reinforcement is very valuable when everyone is looking at massed ground bases inside thick minefields - only the Tholians would be better, and even they couldn't be sure of clearing all the command mines...

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Wednesday, June 04, 2014 - 12:37 pm: Edit

Andrew Harding: I'm having a tough time visualizing the minefield you describe.

Assume BATS is in hex 2115, how would you deploy?

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Wednesday, June 04, 2014 - 04:05 pm: Edit

Mine fields have two major uses in a game. To slow down the other force and reduce is maneuver. For plasma and drone races slowing the enemy is wonderful. Drones in mass and plasma will reach the enemy forces. They will have to deal with them other then by out running out the seekers.
The reduction of maneuver helps all forces as it reduces the enemy forces options. Making it easier to give the defender concentrated forces.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Wednesday, June 04, 2014 - 05:55 pm: Edit

Randy - been a while since I planned one out, will need to check exactly what comes with two packages and write it up. Since that could take me a while see if this helps:
For the 21xx spine: (with similar in each of the other five hex spines - they won't be exact matches as the packages don't divide evenly.)
2101 (optional) out of belt large command explosive
2107 small command explosive (better to use a pair in directions B and F from 2108 but a single saves on command detonators)
2108 at least one large automatic explosive + large command explosive
2113 small command captor + large automatic explosive
2114 large command captor
2115 large command captor
Remaining small command captors in the empty hexes at range two.
Other mines to taste anywhere within seven hexes of the base - it'll be a pretty thick field and the details aren't crucial as any reasonable layout will make charging through it painful.
The captors give substantial firepower out to range 15 (since they're command controlled) - a stack of Klingons in 2100 will be in range of four large and five small captors, more if they come closer or avoid the hex spine. Seventeen Disruptors should be enough to be a concern, even if the base itself is turtling up.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Wednesday, June 04, 2014 - 08:37 pm: Edit

Don't forget some dummys/extra control for the freighters way in...

(M6.2) - 40 small, 15 large, 7 small captor, 3 large captor, 4 sensor (3 large and 3 small senosr canm be controlled by sensor, 11 chain/deadman)...

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 03:29 pm: Edit

I overlooked rule (M6.33) which makes the mine belt a lot cheaper. Thus, the current BATS plus fighters (probably AAS based on year) with speed 20 drones and minefields have a combined BPV under 450. What extra BPV is alloted for other purchases? It seems I don't expect to have as many extra mines as some other posters.

I don't anticipate destroying any enemy ship and crippling is unlikely. Mobility will allow the Klingons to hide damaged shields and withdraw. My goal is to keep the base alive as long as possible and hope help arrives to sweep up all the damaged Klingons. The fighters will not have much impact, just too few drones even against the limited early GW Klingon set of ADD.

I prefer to keep the minefield roughly uniform except I might place extra mines covering the side closest to the enemy's entry point. If the opponent decides to move around the base, that gives an extra turn the base can fire. Some mines will be placed randomly just to keep the field from being too predictable. I also shift some large explosive mines a hex or two to not have them all at the same radius. Mines moved towards the outer edge may be paired with another large explosive on the inner edge of the field.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 07:44 pm: Edit

Richard, COI or overall force allocation...

Actually, the base command for the freighter entry path is part of the basics, just didn't find it with a casual pass...

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 09:26 pm: Edit

What radius would you deploy the bulk of the mines?

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 11:23 pm: Edit

I would set the ring of explosive mines between range 9 and 13 from the base. My initial deployment layout would involve placing a large explosive mine in every other hex at radius 10 and a small explosive mine in every other hex at radius 12. That would use all the large explosive mines and 6 small mines per 60 degree segment. Then adjust the layout by swapping the placement of some large and small mines and scatter the remaining small mines between the existing mines. Tweak further depending on mood, knowledge of opponent, and number of additional mines available. Double check deployment does not violate (M6.332).

I want every path towards the base to cross the explosive radius of at least one large explosive mine. I expect the opponent to try lots of mine detection rolls and any weak patch will be noticed.

Captor mines would be placed a couple hexes behind the minefield. That would allow the mines to shoot at any target within 8 hexes of the base but also force the opponent to move further away in order to conduct safe repairs.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Friday, June 06, 2014 - 08:15 am: Edit

So you are ok with the range 15 radius being not covered?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, June 06, 2014 - 11:46 am: Edit

Basic mine layout for a BS, BATTS, or SB should consider the Phaser-IV range chart.

IMHO

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Friday, June 06, 2014 - 01:04 pm: Edit

I would love to be able to cover both range-8 and range 15 with mines. The problem with range 15+ is that the minefield will be so diffuse that attackers can easily clear a safe path to range 15. The range 15+ minefield might result in one more downed shield over not having a minefield out there. But if the Klingons pierce the minefield, they can easily move to overload range safe from hitting additional explosive mines.

A reasonable (roughly matching BPV) Klingon force would take about 20 turns to heavily damage a BATS if staying at range 15. If help isn't going to arrive in 20 turns, it doesn't matter what I do. Otherwise, I am ecstatic to keep the Klingons sitting harmlessly at range 15.

A maximum effort Klingon force will take down the BATS quickly from whatever range they choose and the BATS will do little damage in return. Watch some TV instead.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 01:58 pm: Edit

I would hop in my police ship, cross the Radiation Zone to WYN space, and join the Usurper. My successor can do what they want with the mines.