Fighting Retreat
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
New Scenarios:
Fighting Retreat
[BackStory: I'm trying to set up a scenario as part of a campaign and would appreciate some help. (The forces and setup are drawn from an FnE game I'm playing). I'm trying to create the feeling of an approach battle - the Hydrans are smaller, but can give up space for time.]
The Scene: Y171: The Hydrans are establishing a mobile base around a minor planet to protect their supply lines from the capital to the Old Colonies and replace lost bases. The Klingons have assembled a fleet from available forces to remove this nuisance. The Hydrans must protect the base.
Klingon:
D7C, D7B, D6B, D5, 2 F5L, 2 F5B, F5V (8 Z-2), E4A, F5S - positioned (see below)
Hydran:
Small (5 hex diameter) Gas Giant with two PDU (6 - GB P-IV, 2 Medium Ground fighter bases (12 St-I each - 24 total), 2 GWS, 2 GMG - spread such that they can defend the planet from attack from any direction)
Mobile Base (no pods or augmentation modules) and 3 cargo pods and 1 repair pod in standard orbit (the pods are for the MB but have not been attached yet)
Caravan TUG (one cargo pod) in standard orbit
PAL (12 St-2), DG (3 St-2), KN, CRU, 2 CU, SC - positioned 40 hexes towards the planet from the Klingons.
Reinforcements
LB (3 St-2), DG (3 St-2) and KN arrive 20 hexes from the nearest Klingon ship at the beginning of turn 5.
Victory Conditions:
The Klingons must leave the map by the end of turn 10 or are considered destroyed (their supply lines are cut by other Hydran forces and they end up cut off deep in Hydran space).
Klingons: The Klingons win if they destroy the Mobile base and orbiting pods OR the Caravan TUG without losing a cruiser hull. Otherwise, provided the Klingons score 400+ victory points, use Modified Victory Conditions. If the D7C is destroyed reduce the level of victory one level. Any other result is a loss.
[Designed to reflect the importance of cruisers and command ships. The 400 point minimum to use MVC's reflects that this operation is too expensive to conduct to let the Klingons score minimal damage and leave].
Hydrans: The Hydrans win if the MB, TUG and 2 pods survive without the loss of the PAL or either DG, otherwise use modified victory conditions. The Hydrans automatically lose if the PAL is destroyed (there ARE only *2* in the Hydran navy...)
Note 1: Points could be scored for 'general devastation' of the planet according to P2.515(?) although this is not the mission of the Klingon force.
Note 2: It is possible for both sides to win, or both sides to lose.
Questions:
What is the minimum starting range from the planet for the Klingons such that the Hydrans have a chance of protecting the MB? (Do they have a chance?)
What tactics should the Hydrans use?
Interesting idea.
I would suspect that the Hydrans best bet is to push the fighters to the front and operate behind them. If the Klingons spend time fly to around the fighters the Hydrans will have to commit all but the Pal and Dr in an attempt to stop them taking out the base before reinforcements arrive.
If the Klingons plough throught the fighters then I would expect the Hydrans to have good chances in securing mutually assured destruction of the starting fleets!
You should probably remove the Cargo Pod from the Caravan.
As it has 28(?) cargo already internally. Another 28(?) on the pod, is just giving it SOO much padding.
So what tactic do you think the Hydran's should use against the Klingons? What I see is a retrograde toward the planet, at 14-18 or so, firing Hellbores every other turn.
If the Hydran Paladin group, starts 4(?) boards from the planet, that's 160 hexes about, 8-10 turns of retro, so that's 5 volleys of Hellbores.
<edit> Oops, just saw the requirement of the Turn 10 withdrawl by the Klingons. IF that's the case, I'd say the Klingons start on Map 4 (Map 1 with the Gas Giant, a 1 x 4 layout of maps) That's ~160 hexes from the planet, at speed 25-30 they'll get there on Turn 5/6 about
Looks interesting. Very refreshing to see fleet battle scenarios with more and varied victory conditions based on hull and supply protection.
A definite all day club scenario though.
Oh, the other thing.
You might want to consider a mix of Hellbore-Fusion ships.
As this is Y171, and the war has been going on for quite a while, the all-Hellbore/all-Fusion fleets will probably of been mixed by now.
So possibly the "reinforcements" are Fusion-based. For that follow-up pimp-slap, after the Hellbore-ships soften them up.
Now questions after the second reading.
You mention that the Klingons are not supposed to lose a cruiser here. How will that be possible, if the Hydrans fire 11-13 (the first volley, blasted DG's louse arcs) of them at the D6B. The Hellbore is the most EW resistant weapon there is, so even if they get shifted, whatever the target is, it's going to be smacked silly by them.
Looking at the current scenario, I don't see the Klingons having any chance of winning.
Klingons (ignoring drone speeds): 1056 + 64 = 1120 BPV
Hydrans (ignoring bases, but not their fighters): 665 + 150 + 378 + 60 + 240 + 70 = 1563.
Worse, much of the Klingon BPV is tied up in the smaller F5s which only have range 15 disruptors (this wouldn't be as much of a problem against a mixed or fusion fleet, but is going to be fatal against the HB heavy fleet here). With a completely floating map, unlimited time and no Hydran reinforcements, the Klingons might have a chance (the BPV would then be about even).
If the Klingons started within 30 hexes of the planet, they might have a chance (rush to range 15 and hope two volleys of disruptors are enough to kill the tug). Maybe range 50 if the Hydrans start at WS-0 (unlikely) or WS-1.
I'd suggest removing the Paladin from the starting forces and change the reinforcements to RN+ (9 St-II), TR, HN (or something like that). Then starting at 120 hexes or so would be reasonable and give the "approach battle" feel.
From trying to do scenarios, I've actually found it is best to do "approach battles" as separate battles with their own victory conditions.
Good points all. Some quick responses:
Scott: I had forgotten the internal cargo on the TUG (the pod represents the augmentation modules for the MB). The internal cargo should be sufficient for those so the pod is unnecessary and is excessive padding as you point out.
Scott & David: I'm pondering how the Klingons can do this without losing a cruiser - hide them at the back I suppose, send the expendable frigates forward...
I'm pondering also changing the mix between Hydran static and reinforcement units - making the reinforcements larger and the initial force smaller. That would possibly solve the 'The Klingons have no chance' AND the 'How to keep the cruisers alive' problems by giving the Klingons a window of opportunity to attack the base/TUG. Swapping Hellbore for fusion hulls would achieve that aim too I suppose.
Thanks, Cat.
Regarding Hydran fleet composition in Y171, don't forget that, initially, the Hydrans concentrated the HB-armed ships on the Lyran front and in the (defeated) Expeditionary Fleet. A smattering of HB ships might be possible in Y171 on the Klingon front, but not the numbers you have.
For the initial forces, the PAL and the CRU are ok; all others should be converted to their FUS-armed brethren (DG to RN, KN to LN, CU to HN). If the Hydran really wants to go HB heavy, go ahead and give him his standard allotment of St-H, and make him work to somehow employ them (2 on the PAL, 2 on the RN, for a total of 4).
For reinforcements, I'd change the LB to an LM. Since their "emergency" reinforcements, you can probably get away with a regular HB-armed ship here, but I wouldn't make it two.
You also need to clarify which ships, if any, have their + refits. In Y171, at least a few, if not most, would already be refitted, with PAL and cruisers probably having priority.
Using a heavier FUS/FTR Hydran force will do two things: 1) it will accentuate the tactical options presented by Paul Stovell, above, giving the Klingons a tougher choice, while also making a separate fighter strike for the Hydrans a viable option (IF they can pull it off). In this instance HB would - hopefully - serve more as a coup-de-grace type of weapon, rather than rely on it as the primary means of bringing down Klingon ships. Also note that, because of the victory conditions, the Hydrans really don't have to fight that well or that hard to win. They just have to have key units survive...in any condition.
On the Klingon forces' side, you might want to note that the F5L are actually F5C, unless you want them to have the K refit (leaving it in for one of them might be cool). Also, that E4A has to get downgraded to an E4E.
Klingon EW capability isn't much better than the Hydrans, so that's pretty much a wash. If fighters do come into significance in the battle, the copious number of disruptors and, if necessary, ADDs, will have to carry the day. The Klingons really don't have (and shouldn't have) enough P1 to augment the disruptor firepower. Except for a handful of specials, drones will be pretty much irrelevant.
For Klingon victory, I'd soften it a little by saying that the Klingons can't win if they lose any heavy cruiser hull (i.e., MC1) instead of any cruiser hull. IOW, the D5 could be sacrificed, if need be...
Rich,
Note that this is between Hydrax and the Old Colonies, so the Lyran and Klingon fronts may be one in the same.
What I would ask is how come the Hydrans have anything bigger than a DD hull. Most of their big ships went down at the capital, didn't they?
Unfortunately, the idea of sending the F5s forward won't work. They're only ~1/3 of the Klingon combat power and without the immediate support of the cruisers will just get slaughtered, and probably without having any real damaged (perhaps a few stingers, or if they're lucky a CU). At least with the current forces.
James is right - there isn't much difference between a Klingon and Lyran front at this stage in the war. The Lyrans happen to be out of supply at this planet though (because of their own border BATS losses in the early stages of the war) - which is why they aren't appearing. The Klingons have been forced to extend their supply line for this mission.
[On an FnE map: I envision it happening at that minor planet hiding on the galactic rim just south and west of the Capital planet. The MB is a replacement for the 2nd Fleet starbase and BATS in 0318].
I'm trying to time the scenario BEFORE the capital fell. The Capital system is being attacked (which is why the Klingon force consists of dross not a line of D5's) but homeworld hasn't fallen yet. From the timeline in CL17 I *think* that happens in Y171. Perhaps I need to push this scenario back to Fall Y170 rather than Spring Y171.
[By that reasoning the PAL should be sitting over homeworld, and the reinforcements are likely to be a reserve fleet from the Old Colonies - which would be fusion versions, perhaps even the LC... hmmmm...].
As for refits - I did miss the F5L-F5C thing (I can never work out which is which... 
). Hydran plus refits are, however, virtually non-existent in Y171 (PALs Y172, KN's are around the same time). It is possible the cruisers (DG,RN) could be refitted, but I decided these ones weren't - the refitted ones are at the capital.
By 'cruiser' I did mean MC1 hull. The D5 is cannon fodder (as it should be).
I was trying to avoid jigging the starting fleets (for the reason I wanted to file off the serial numbers and make this a general - pick your fleet to attack/defend the MB - scenario) but the background is getting interesting (and thus in the way... ) so I might revise things and repost.
Comments, as always, are appreciated.
Cat.
SCENARIO REVISION
In light of feedback...
The Scene: Y170: The fall of the last battle station between the Old Colonies and the Capital has cutoff the bulk of the Hydran fleet from retreat from defense of the homeworld. In a desperate bid to reopen the strategic retreat lines the Hydrans are trying to establish a mobile base around one of the minor planets on the required route. The Coalition desires to trap the Hydran fleet and destroy it over the capital. Previous losses of Lyran border BATS mean they are stretching their supply lines to attack the Hydran capital, and cannot reach the mobile base. Only the Klingons can extend their supply lines enough to launch an attack. The simultaneous Coalition assault on the Hydran capital means that the ships available are limited.
Klingon:
D7C, D7B, D6B, D5, 2 F5C, 2 F5B, F5V (8 Z-2), E4E, F5S - positioned (see below)
Hydran:
Small (5 hex diameter) Gas Giant with two PDU (6 - GB P-IV, 2 Medium Ground fighter bases (12 St-I each - 24 total), 2 GWS, 2 GMG - spread such that they can defend the planet from attack from any direction)
Mobile Base (no pods or augmentation modules) and 3 cargo pods and 1 repair pod in standard orbit (the pods are for the MB but have not been attached yet) [Neither the MB nor the pods may be in the shadow of the planet from the Klingons]
Caravan TUG in standard orbit
DG (3 St-2), KN, CRU, CU, HN, SC - positioned 40 hexes towards the planet from the Klingons.
Old Colonies Reserve Squadron:
LC (6 St-2), HR (6 St-2), 2xLN (3 St-1 each) arrive 20 hexes from the nearest Klingon ship at the beginning of turn 5.
Map:
Use a fixed map of size ???
Refits:
All Klingon ships have the B refit as appropriate, but none have the K refit as yet.
None of the Hydran ships have the plus refit, although all have the fusion holding refit if appropriate.
Victory Conditions:
The Klingons must leave the map by the end of turn 10 or are considered destroyed (their extended supply lines are cut by other Hydran forces and they end up cut off deep in Hydran space).
Klingons: The Klingons win if they
a) destroy the Mobile base and orbiting pods or
b) the Caravan TUG
without losing the D7C, D7B or D6B hull.
If these conditions are not met, provided the Klingons score 400+ victory points their victory is determined by the use of Modified Victory Conditions. If the D7C is destroyed reduce the level of victory one level.
[Designed to reflect the importance of cruisers and command ships. The 400 point minimum to use MVC's reflects that this operation is too expensive to conduct to let the Klingons score minimal damage and leave].
Hydrans: The Hydrans win if the MB, TUG and 2 pods survive. Otherwise their victory is determined by modified victory conditions. They Hydrans gain no points for forcing a Klingon disengagement.
Note 1: Points could be scored for 'general devastation' of the planet according to P2.515(?) although this is not the mission of the Klingon force.
Note 2: It is possible for both sides to win, or both sides to lose.
Questions:
What is the minimum starting range from the planet for the Klingons such that the Hydrans have a chance of protecting the MB? (Do they have a chance? - the Hydran at start forces now seem small...)
What tactics should the Hydrans use?
Changes:
Reduced the Hydran at start forces and made the reinforcements appropriate for an Old Colonies squadron.
Removed the hull incentives on the Hydran victory conditions - they may now sacrifice cruiser hulls if it keeps the MB and TUG alive.
David
While this is a good SFB scenario, it is difficult to see it happening in Fed&Emp.
1) Normally, all the heavy cruisers that are not command versions will be at the capital. Their compot density there makes a huge difference.
2) Any spare funds for a mobile base would have been spent putting that mobile base up at the capital (or increasing planetary defences). Typically in F&E, a Hydran player never buys a MB in the early war, and the two they start with are put up to bolster capital defences (mainly by EW support).
3) In F&E, persistent defence of this planet is utterly impossible. The only way you can maintain supply to the old colonies is either to hold the 2nd fleet SB (and it is long gone by now historically) or to use your fleet to open up the supply lines each turn. Given that the huge defences at the capital are barely holding at this point, putting up a MB in the rearward areas (but still within coalition supply range) is not going to have any useful effect once the coalition put their minds to it (if they can blow away the capital, they can deal with a poxy MB).
I can only envisage some minor planetary defences/mines/defsats being set up here, assuming the planet has been previously devastated and recaptured by the Hydrans (this frequently happens in F&E - the hydrans using fleets to recapture this planet and reopen supply). If it has not (and that is possible), there will be quite extensive planetary defences from the pre-war days, which will not have been upgraded on the basis that they simply will not hold up enough under attack to make extra expenditure worthwhile.
These minor defences however can still be significant - even a few mines and satellites with perhaps a single ground base would be much cheaper than a MB (not necessarily in BPV, but certainly in F&E economy). Their main function would be to help cover the Hydrans retreat after a few rounds of combat against a big coalition attack.
So, some comments on the force. Do note, however, that you can be free to ignore any F&E-based ideas. This is simply *if* you want to make it realistic from an F&E point of view.
"Caravan TUG in standard orbit."
This tug could conceivably be here, but it would almost certainly have a carrier pod and escorts (DE/AH). If the Hydrans were putting up some minor defences here (not reflected in F&E), it would probably be being done by a combination of a minesweeper and freighters/Q-ships.
DG (3 St-2), Very unlikely. An LB/LM is more likely, but only as the command ship. However, the tug should be the command ship (CR9), given you (realisically) have an LC coming as a reinforcement, and an overall commitment of more than 2 SC 3 hulls here would be way OTT given where they should be.... Omit the DG or replace it with smaller hulls. If you want extra hellbores, they would probably be mounted on CUs. KNs are beginning to get rarer at this point, more than the one below would be unlikely.
KN, CRU, CU, HN, SC - positioned 40 hexes towards the planet from the Klingons.
These are OK. But if you have the tug as a CVT, the KN and HN would be DE/AH instead. (you could then insert the KN to replace the DG).
So, I would try (probably lower BPV).
CVT/DE/AH + KN,CU,SC. (perhaps 2 CU).
"Old Colonies Reserve Squadron:
LC (6 St-2), HR (6 St-2), 2xLN (3 St-1 each) "
No way would the OCS have an HR. You would probably have 2 or 3 HN instead.
Combining this...
LC (command), CVT/DE/AH, KN, CU, 2LN, 2HN.
This is a reasonable F&E line given the situation and that coalition elements commited here are likely to be weaker. The LC would be in the formation bonus (difficult to kill) and the tug protected by escorts, so both the SC3 hulls are OK. There is a nice battlegroup, and you are within command limits. The only thing missing is something that could be setting up some defences.
The Klingon force is more or less fine, however, one could nitpick.
"D7C, D7B, D6B, D5, 2 F5C, 2 F5B, F5V (8 Z-2), E4E, F5S"
Normally, in SFB/F&E, F5Cs operate with 2 F5B each - an FV carrier group does not really count as "2F5B", although other F5 varients may be replaced in lieu of the F5B. Most D7s/D5s will probably be in the capital attack. I'd try.
"D7C, 2D6B, 2 F5C, 4 F5B, F5V (8 Z-2), E4E, F5S"
The battlegroup 2F5C/4F5B counts as 5 ships for command, keeping this within command limits.
However, you could try something like the below if you wanted more variety.
"D7C, D7B (or D5), D6B, 2 F5C, 2F5B, F5G, F5M, F5V (8 Z-2), E4E, F5S"
Now, I don't want to offend you. There was nothing seriously wrong in the first place, and this is simply my opinion of how you could marry this better with F&E - others may disagree.
NB.
The ground base could be the objective for the Klingons instead of the MB (it could be a warehouse or cargo thingy). Likewise, the Hydrans may have a bunch of frieghters there that coudl be an objective as well - say they have to stay on map (no disengaging) as nowehere else is safer!!
Side note.
Given that the Hydran DGs were in the Exp fleet and 2nd fleet, and that the Exp fleet was lost and the 2nd fleet starbase destroyed, the Hydrans probably would have no more than 2 or 3 DGs in their entire navy at this point. RNs - perhaps 5-6 or so.
Heck - just read that you got this by *playing* F&E. ignore me then - we obviously have very different playing styles. I simply would not risk a DG outside the form box away from a SB defense or assault (unless it was the expedition). Similarly, I put up the MBs in the capital.
A note on the Klingon refits - there's nothing wrong with having F5Ls (or a D7L) in Y171. The K-refits start appearing on command hulls (and the FD7) in Y168. Whether the particular ships assigned to this mission actually have the refit yet is entirely at the discretion of the scenario designer, though.
The current scenario looks much better. I'd suggest starting the Klingons at 90 hexes (at least until doing some playtesting). This realistically gets them to the planet on turn 5. Enough time to have a chance to kill the targets and boogie.
Killing a target and escaping without loosing a cruiser is going to be hard for the Klingons. I'd suggest determining how many turns it would take the Klingons (ignoring damage) to kill the MB and pods at range 30, 15, 8 and 4. The tug is more fragile, but can hide behind the planet.
The key for the Hydrans to win is to kill a cruiser. This forces the Klingons to actually fight. They have three chances to kill a cruiser (the intial force, the battle at the planet with the Ph-IV and the reinforcements). Once it comes down to a Modified BPV fight, I think it will work out. The Hydrans feel a bit stronger and have the advantage of their fighters and planetary defenses. On the other hand, the Klingons are a concentrated force.
If I were playing the Hydrans, I'd have the first force meet the Klingons (aiming for range 22, and avoiding 15) and go for crippling/killing a target of choice (while a CA would be nice, damage is more important). After a pass, have the force start to retreat (continuing to engage at this range). The goal here is to prevent the Klingons from closing fast while inflicting about equal damage. The St-1 on the planet need to launch ASAP. Also, early in the battle, I'd have the tug attach at least one of the pods (cargo) and preferably 2. This gives it padding and protects the pods themselves. Then it will probably head behind the planet (at least until the late stages of the game--if the MB is still up, it stays hidden, otherwise it considers egaging as a "final" reserve). At the planet, the ph-IV start to come into play (as will the reinforcements). At this point the Hydrans want to conduct the battle around the planet, using its defenses (the Klingons do not have the time to deal with the defenses AND the fleet).
Overall, between evenly matched opponets with good tactics and average luck, it should come down to the modified VC. Note that allowing both to win is VERY bad. Both loosing is not real good either. I'd suggest slightly changing the VC so that if one side or the other auto wins, the other looses--if the supply point survives, the situation is dire for the Klingons, regardless of the exchange in combat. I'd also suggest just stating that the Klingons can score no better than a draw if they fail to inflict the 400 MPV. Don't give the Klingons points for general devastation. This is a strike to destroy the logistics node while preserving their fleet.
I have to disagree with David S on the Tug. It has to be a regular tug (since it is setting up the MB). A F-L and F-S in ballast along with a FT-S (with only 4 BP) also in orbit would make sense. They delivered the other three pods and the crew. Don't worry if the freighters are over command limits...
The HR in the OC fleet is a bit odd. Maybe replace it with a pair of HN. Perhaps consider replacing the DG+HN with a TR and HR (gives the first force some stingers) at the same time (for balance). A GEN or two might be interesting in one force or the other (intended as the MB's local force). On the other hand, given the situation, much of the force might remain (ie the MB has more of a SB's local force).
I haven't read the R8.R1? description of the + refit recently, but you should to verify when it is applied (as well as the individual ship descriptions). I'm thinking all cruisers had it before facing combat.
DKass and Davidas: Thanks for the interesting comments.
I guess some 'background' on this scenario wouldn't go astray. The FnE game I'm playing is a solo one (which makes things a bit wierd anyway). It stemmed from a discussion a while back about battlelines for Hydran capital assaults (in the Hydran Tactics topic) so I wanted to see what would be a reasonable Coalition and Hydran battle line at that point. Anyway playing the whole first 6 turns of the general war seemed a bit much, and too fraught with decisions (how much to concentrate on the Hydrans say...), so I started with the 'Hydran Expedition' in CL13 (which just reflects the expedition and abstracts the whole Kzinti and Lyran fronts). Then I added in an 'abstraction' for the Lyrans (so I didn't have to run the Kzinti front) and ran through the first couple of turns, noting down interesting battlelines which arose. The FnE scenario which results has problems (mainly the Coalition is too weak), but some interesting things resulted.
One of them was the two battelines from the very first scenario proposal - which resulted from an Expeditionary fleet attack (hence the hellbore variants) on a Klingon BATS in Fall Y169, with the Klingon Home Fleet reserve arriving to save the day. I thought it interesting from a number of points of view:
- The BPV's are almost equal (in Y169 anyway, although the Hydrans have an advantage in FnE terms);
- The ships are an odd collection of things, not just a vanilla line of cruisers or D5's or something.
- Most of the ships are not fully refitted at this time (Kzinti front ships having priority for refits)
Now, for another (SFB) project I was trying to setup a mobile base assault with largish fleets, and pondering how to balance the reinforcements and initial starting forces of the defender. I remembered this battleline from my FnE game and decided to use it as a concrete example. To fit it into a 'history' resulted in my trying to think where the Hydrans might set up a mobile base (without it being under the guns of the homeworld starbase) - hence the scenario backstory.
Upshot is this scenario wasn't quite generated from an FnE game, although the battleline did appear in one, it appeared at a different point in time.
The idea for the background for this scenario came from reading CL17 and the general war history. There is a comment in there that elements of the Hydran command wanted to retreat the fleet from the capital to the old colonies but 'once the last BATS between the capital and OC fell that was impossible'. I wondered: IF that 'retreat' element of Hydran command had access to a MB would they have tried to set it up to reopen supply, temporarily, for a retreat of the main fleet?
Onto some more specific 'Why I did what I did' in this scenario design.
- The overabundance of F5C's results from forming the largest reserve fleet allowed from the starting Home Fleet in the 'Hydran Expedition' FnE scenario in CL13 (see above post for why that is relevant... ). The extra F5C results from splitting an F5Q rather than including an E4 (the other choice) or a D6 (left to allow conversion to a mauler). I often find I use F5L's in that way - as a Klingon destroyer rather than a F5Q leader.
[I should probably add that I'm still a novice at FnE - so haven't been taught the error of my ways of risking DG's on the line or splitting F5Q's ]
- The Caravan TUG is required for setting up the MB - it can't have a host of other pods/escorts for defense. (I play plain vanilla FnE so the escorts aren't an issue there... ).
- The HR arriving in the reinforcements, I presumed retreated/retrograded to the OC for repair and happened to be around for this mission. (a thin excuse, but at least I have one... ). The 2nd Fleet is a bit weak in FnE terms with regards to damage sponging (fighters) so I tend to send my prewar HR up there rather than the 1st Fleet.
- The DG: I wanted to give the starting Hydrans some punch and not completely filled with destroyers and frigates. I considered a TR, but there are so few of those. Thinking about it some more however AT THIS POINT it is important every Hydran cruiser is on the line at homeworld, but say a TR,CU combo is probably more likely. Or as David Kass suggests - moving the HR to the starting forces, replace DG, HN with TR.
- Planetary Defenses: I envisage this planet having had precisely zero coalition attention so far - they intend taking it after the capital falls (hence the two PDU present).
- Klingon K Refits: The command ships in this theatre have a lower priority for this refit as the main thrust at this point is the Kzinti (at least in my FnE setup...). In addition, this particular mission wouldn't draw the topline ships as it is secondary to the actual capital assault.
- VC's: I'm undecided on whether all win or all lose is necessarily bad. In FnE it frequently happens (it seems to me) where it looks like BOTH sides achieved their objectives because they are somewhat different. e.g. The Hydrans keep the MB and TUG, but lose the MVC's because the DG, KN and a couple of frigates are exchanged for a D6 and an F5V. The Hydrans 'win' by keeping the supply point, and possibly saving the capital fleet. The Klingons, while not isolating the capital, have killed a Hydran SC3 ship and inflicted damage on the Hydran navy so it is a victory of sorts. Then again perhaps that would be a Klingon loss... [scowl].
Thanks all - I'm finding this discussion instructive...
The plus refit: The R8.R1 description isn't much help (giving a range from Y170 to Y181) but the DG ship descriptions says 'Refit applied in Y170' which might indicate ALL DG received the refit on that date. Given the staggered date of plus refits in the Hydran fleet it seems plausible that they refitted ship class by ship class, rather than a more random alotment (like Klingon K or B refits say).
Net Result: The DG should be a DG+ I think. Nothing else has the plus refit in Y170.
David C
The main reason why I suggested a TGV with escorts was the assumption that a MB was not being set up. While I understand now that you got here by F&E (sort of), I have not seen an on-line game where a MB has been placed at that planet. It is remotely possible that some beefing up of the defences could be in progress, but these would be cheap elements not represented on the F&E scale.
However, a stranded convoy could easily be at the planet, and could have stipulations that it could not disengage, on the assumption that the freighters would otherwise be hunted down and destroyed. It could then be the "target" instead of the MB (E.g. these could be wealthy Hydran families fleeing to the the Old colonies).
A TR here is much more likely than a DG, mainly because it is relatively expendable. The main point is that all heavy cruisers as far as possible would be at the homeworld. The Hydrans would face the Coalition at the capital initially with a line like this:-
PAL LM 3*DG 2*TG-Btl 5*RN
All other heavy cruisers and larger would probably be destroyed at this point except for something like
LC LB LGE 2TG THR 2TG - and many of these would be at the homeworld to defend other sytems or be reserves to plug the damage on the homeworld fleet.
(NB LGE is the Hydran light dreadnought, THR the hydran fast cruiser)
Now once that big line at the homeworld is safeguarded, then the smaller ships may be more likely to have flexibility in their deployment.
David S: After rereading a bit more FnE I've finally understood better the distinction you are drawing. There IS no reason to set up a MB at a planet (in terms of supply, repair, retrograde, strategic movement or anything else) OTHER than to upgrade the defenses (i.e. add a 10 factor unit to the defense)... and as you point out more PDU's would be just as good, and cheaper - and just as useless in that role. [You already know all that... I'm just dense sometimes... ].
Functionally the freighter idea is neat - same sorts of objectives (in SFB terms), would never happen in FnE terms (dedicated staff officers worry about how to get minor Hydran royal family members to safety by freighter) yet add something to the game.
I feel a scenario revision 3 coming on...
Thanks,
Cat.
Historical note [Gleaned from the SFB ship descriptions]: Both LGE's were destroyed on the expedition, one THR is around but has to be at the capital to carry members of the Hydran royal family to the Old Colonies once it falls (to satisfy the history).
Not really relevant to the scenario at hand, but I thought I would share.
Instead of placing the action at the on map planet (F&E), place it at another planet (remember there are many "smaller" planets per F&E hex). Thus the planet is no longer actually a supply node and would need the MB. IIRC, all the on map planets have names (thus since you didn't mention the planet's name I assumed it wasn't on the map).
While having both sides win may be realistic, I find it leads to frustrated players (I won, NO I won). While both losing is not as much of a problem, I've generally found that it works a bit better to designate a winner and then some description indicating that its a Phyrric victory. I find that giving one player a "draw" and the other player a loss VC does a good job at this (thus my suggestion of changing the MVP penalty to "no better than a draw").
I had missed the change in date for the scenario. Thus my comment on the + refit. From a historical perspective, I think it worked better in Y171. I don't believe it changes any of the other refits.
Thinking about this scenario more.
It might be a good tactic to give the Hydran's maybe 8 Ph-4, and 4 Hellbore Ground Bases.
While a Hellbore does less damage compared to a Ph-4. It's the wrap-around potentional that is killer.
Imagine "approaching" verses a Ph-4 side. Pasting the base, then "retreating" to recharge/repair shields.
The Hellbore that comes into arc as they retreat, and still get damage inside, through the destroyed shield while they run away.
Just something to think about.
<edit> Have you set up the ground bases on a planet yet? I count 12 hexsides of a 5-hex diameter gas giant. That will mean 1 per side.
Considering a Ph-4 base at each "corner", there won't be as much overlaping of the guns as it would be on a M-class planet. It will also mean the GMG will be on sides of the planet, all by themselves. (12 bases/12 hexs=1per hex)
Just something else to consider.
David K: Comments on VC's taken on board. Will give it some more thought.
The date is tricky - I wanted it set before the capital fell, because otherwise the coalition forces available are too vast and the Hydrans are preoccupied with running off map. (ALTHOUGH there is perhaps a window during the time the coalition are repairing all their cripple stacks...).
CL17 implies the date of the Hydran capital falling is Y170 (from the section heading) - although I find it hard 'historically' to see the capital falling turn 5 FnE given the coalition is ALSO assaulting the Kzinti capital at the same time. [I realise the Hydran capital CAN fall turn 5 but that requires a 'Hydran First' strategy which didn't happen historically]. Perhaps CL17 is just being broad brushed (as they use the Y171 heading to describe the Klingon attack on the Feds). This is especially so as the FnE scenario 'The Tempest' has the Hydran capital in tact on turn 7 (fall Y171).
Moving the scenario to an 'unlisted' planet is an option, but the ground based defenses would need to be scaled back in that case (not such a problem). I haven't actually set up the defenses on the gas giant yet - I guess it would be reasonable to increase the ground bases in a PDU to make up for the fact that the Hydran stingers are cheaper than other races drone armed fighters by about 12 points per squadron - approximately one P-IV base or 1.5 hellbore bases. I would say that 'spread out' does not mean 'all in different hexes' just 'covering the whole planet'. Concentrating the bases at the 6 corners would be acceptable I think.
Given the size of a gas giant and some of the coverage issues, the ground force seemed reasonable for a lesser (non F&E) planet.
For some reason I got Y170 and Y171 confused. I think you have the timing right.
Remember that in F&E, the Hydrans don't sacrifice 20% of their fleet on trying the expedition and failing.
David K
I think David C got the PDU deployments straight out of captain's Log, as recommended for translating from F&E PDUs.
David S: I did get my PDU from Captain's Log (but dropped off the defsats). One has to remember that those PDU's in Captain's Log are 'typical' FED PDU's. It could be argued that the Hydrans, with their much bigger gas giants to defend, use an entirely different setup (which is I think what David K was implying).
There is a problem justifying this economically because a Hydran PDU costs the same as a Fed PDU, but by waving our tentacles and giving Hellbore and Fusion ground bases a far reduced economic cost, or scrapping the defsats or GMG's or something it is probably doable.