| By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, November 05, 2019 - 12:22 pm: Edit |
Alan,
Just an observation...
Just because there is a prohibition NOW, against X2 size class 2 ships, Heavy PFs and non-Hydran fighters, does not mean that at some point in the distant future the Steves might decide that one or more exceptions could infact happen.
There is no earthly way you, I, or any one not involved with ADB can predict just what decisions concerning undefined design paths may need to be made.
The "Wild Card" is GURPS Prme Directive. With outside decisions being made that might influence in game factors, there just isn't any way to predict how the Steves might react to changes that literally have not happened. (Of course, that assumes such decisions might have some impact on SFBs, FC, or F&E...)
Bottom line, such things like improved Admn Shuttles for X2 or later eras are not within the niche where The Star Fleet Universe exists, and it is likely that the future is hidden from us all.
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, November 05, 2019 - 12:37 pm: Edit |
Personally, I don't care how powerful the X-2 shuttle is. I care more about how the missions and roles of those ships are defined, and how the role of shuttle fits into the missions and roles.
I could see a product design where the shuttles are not any better than the current Advanced Admins.
I could see a product design where the shuttles are slightly better than the current advanced admins.
I could see a product design where the shuttles are as powerful as bombers.
I could see a product design where the shuttles have the capabilities of a INT or PF.
I could see a product design where the shuttles are actually *corvettes* in their capabilities. In other words, all attrition units are obsolete in X-2.
For that last one I'm thinking of small ships like the Yangzee in Deep Space 9.
I could see a galaxy where a few X-2 cruisers patrol vast territories, and use their corvette-style "shuttles" to help cover that territory.
So, I guess I'm not looking at the design issue linearly (i.e., more powerful shuttles would require more powerful fighters, etc). I'm seeing the issue in terms of design parameters, mission role, and tech advancement where entire classes of units have potentially become obsolete.
For example, what happens if part of design X-2 seekers can't be distracted by WWs? Admins suddenly have a lot less usefulness. Likewise, a suicide shuttle might be as archaic as using a probe as a weapon is to GW ships. Maybe we don't need admins at all!
Anyway. My two cent, for what it's worth, is to focus more on mission and design than on power. Once you've settled on the former, the latter will work itself out.
| By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, November 05, 2019 - 01:17 pm: Edit |
It's possible for size class 6 units to have shields, at least in the case of the Hivers, so perhaps X2 admin shuttles will. I'd imagine that they'd have a phaser or some kind. Significant armament beyond that is probably heading to being something like an MRS or fighter or some such.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, November 05, 2019 - 01:40 pm: Edit |
Jeff Wile and Ted Fay,
I'm afraid I don't see how anything you've written addresses my concern; that if X2 admin shuttles are that powerful, then X2 fighters are technologically plausible and will be so powerful that X2 will be dominated by carriers; unless X2 warships are so powerful that combat between an X2 force and any earlier force becomes pointless.
That seems to me to be the issue and I don't see how your answers mitigate it. Of course, if you don't mind X2 being dominated by fighters, its not a problem. But speaking purely for myself, I would prefer it otherwise.
YM - as they say - MV.
| By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Tuesday, November 05, 2019 - 02:03 pm: Edit |
For shuttles:
I would avoid having to do an EA for shuttles. That way lies madness. If it needs to be upgunned give it a 360 degree phaser 1 (or 2?) with a range limitation (10 or 15?) to prevent hordes of them sniping at long range. If it just needs more firepower at close range up it to a pair of 360 degree phaser-3s. I would say about speed 10 and can use booster packs to make Speed 20. Around 10 damage to destroy and (if shields are desired) a 2-4 point shield that automatically repairs one point a turn. If you add shields I would leave damage at around 8 instead of ten. Let them disengage by acceleration?
That would keep the shuttles viable to help with drone and plasma defense and keep them fast enough to help a bit as escorts without letting them keep up with the ship at full speed and can probably still be killed by an X1 or X2 drone if said drone is not too armored.
I kind of want X2 tech to be immune to weasels but that would probably not "play nice" with non-X ships. Maybe give the shuttles an increased suicide shuttle explosion strength for a little more power. Probably no need to up Scatter pack strength as the improved drones would deal with that.
To further explain fighters and PFs becoming obsolete maybe give X2 ships x1.5 or even double damage from phasers on all size class 5 and 6 targets that are not X2 tech? Probably too crude.
Another possibly more elegant option would be to have shuttle lended and fighter and PF ECM and ECCM bonuses from all sources (in-built, pods, PF scout/tender and EW fighter/carrier lending, Erratics, small target modifier, etc.) not apply against X2 ships which would make them easy meat to shoot down and X2 ships with ECM running would be very hard for direct fire fighters and gunboats to hit. Have your X2 ship fly with ECM at max and under erratics when facing PFs and their hit or miss weapons are dealing with a +3 shift.
Then have improvements to the X2 shuttles making them resistant to this effect found to be unworkable with armed shuttles....except maybe the Hydrans who got a working X2 Stinger. Not sure what the plan for the Hydrans is though. Maybe they give up fighter reliance too.
This can also let the system phase out MRS shuttles and SWACS but an X2 MRS is doable if desired. You could throw in X2 skiffs eventually if you wanted but say that PF hot engines are just not able to function and play with EW in an X2 environment. The other option is to have skiffs go the way of the dodo too.
I would give the shuttles longer strategic range too but that is background.
| By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Tuesday, November 05, 2019 - 02:08 pm: Edit |
Some ideas for X2 ships in general:
To avoid giving X2 ships a largess of power while still improving I like the idea of removing powered EW. Give X2 ships 8 or 9 EW points they can shift between ECM and ECCM and maybe even allow them to lend some to another ship with a small limit (2?). Keeps the EW guessing game without the need to give more power. Maybe allow them to shift EW every 8 impulses? Move 2 points? Reserve power can be used to shift more at 1 point per extra shift? Standardizing it would also make the big ship vs. little ship imbalance less dramatic in the X2 era. EW deficiencies are one of the biggest reasons smaller ships are less viable even in groups against larger enemies.
You could do the same thing with giving each ship (based on size class?) a number of free shield reinforcement points to beef up defenses without needing to add more power. You always know at least one shield is reinforced but you get the guessing game as to where those points went and mind games are always fun.
Also like the idea of X2 ships having built in negative tractor to make tractoring a ship more difficult to make tractor tactics still viable but a little more difficult. Not a lot but some. Friendly ships can ignore it. I like the idea that tractoring or being tractored gives some natural ECCM to all X2 units firing on either unit. This can be used offensively as part of an anchor or on its own. It would also add a possible penalty to "tractor tricks" used to mess with turn modes that X1 ships are particularly good at though all ships with modern tractor beams can do it. Would still work but makes you more vulnerable while doing it.
Extend tractor range. Tractors work at normal efficiency out to Range 2, 2 power to 1 effective at ranges 3 and 4, and 3 power to 1 effective at ranges 5 and 6. Give transporters a boost up to range 8. Maybe allow X2 transporters to go through shields on a sliding power scale? 1/5 a point for normal unshielded transporter, 1 point to ignore general shield reinforcement point to go through five boxes, 2 points through 10, etc. Might be too disruptive. I would give them the ability to ignore general reinforcement when using transporters, maybe with a slightly increased power cost. Also would lead to having to figure out if enough power can let you board a Jindarian or an Andromedan ship. I would go maybe on the former and a definite no on the latter.
Instead of more speed I would give X2 ships more ability to finesse their movement. Something like the FedCom ability to negate a move or take an extra move at the cost of some power. Maybe pick a base speed for each 8 impulses and then use power to adjust.
Maybe get rid of batteries and instead allow as much power as you need to be held "in reserve" in EA? Or keep batteries and allow the batteries to supplement that reserve? Or triple the size of a phaser capacitor compared to a standard ship and let it be used as reserve power as well? In any of these routes I would still only allow batteries and EA allocated power to reinforce shields to avoid an instant shield brick. The phaser capacitor or other reserve can still be used to power weapons, switch EW, power tractors and transporters, and adjust movement.
To simplify EA X2 ships gets fire control and life support for free. Ditch the sensor and scanner tracks (always assumed to be 6 and 0 respectively) and put in a free EW track and have hits on those knock out boxes on a track of free EW points instead. Give bigger ships a longer track with maybe some redundancy and smaller ones a shorter one so they lose EW faster.
I think the ideal should be that X2 ships are a streamlined joy to fly, a kind of luxury experience. EA is simpler but still involves important and hard decisions, movement is simpler but more flexible, and taking a pair of X2 frigates against an equal BPV X2 cruiser is more of a fair fight than it is in the Middle Years due to general EW equalization.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, November 05, 2019 - 02:12 pm: Edit |
and
Quote:To further explain fighters and PFs becoming obsolete maybe give X2 ships x1.5 or even double damage from phasers on all size class 5 and 6 targets that are not X2 tech?
But then don't you run into a major problem regarding X2 "playing nice" with earlier tech?
Quote:Another possibly more elegant option would be to have shuttle lended and fighter and PF ECM and ECCM bonuses from all sources (in-built, pods, PF scout/tender and EW fighter/carrier lending, Erratics, small target modifier, etc.) not apply against X2 ships which would make them easy meat to shoot down and X2 ships with ECM running would be very hard for direct fire fighters and gunboats to hit. Have your X2 ship fly with ECM at max and under erratics when facing PFs and their hit or miss weapons are dealing with a +3 shift.
| By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Tuesday, November 05, 2019 - 02:50 pm: Edit |
Alan:
Yeah, but if PFs and fighters continue to function at the same level there is no reason they went obsolete. I think you can go with "they play nice" in general with the proviso that attrition units specifically do not work well against X2. If attrition units are still worth their BPV against X2 I don't think they would be phased out. They are still economically cheaper to build compared to their BPV.
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, November 05, 2019 - 10:09 pm: Edit |
Sure it does. Design considerations and mission roles will dictate how these issues are resolved. That's what I'm saying.
Quote:I'm afraid I don't see how anything you've written addresses my concern; that if X2 admin shuttles are that powerful, then X2 fighters are technologically plausible and will be so powerful that X2 will be dominated by carriers; unless X2 warships are so powerful that combat between an X2 force and any earlier force becomes pointless.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, November 05, 2019 - 10:58 pm: Edit |
Ted,
But wait a moment. An admin shuttle is a "generalist" design. It performs, in your phrasing, a lot of different roles. So some significant portion of the total mass and volume is used for stuff with little or no direct combat application. Indeed, a lot of its volume is empty space, to be filled by cargo, passengers, electronic gear, boarding parties, as the need arises. But a fighter is a specialist design with one specific role, or a small number of closely related roles. It doesn't waste any of its volume on non-tactical applications. That space is taken up with larger, more powerful engines (and the fuel storage to power them), weapons, and the specific electronic systems required for combat (as opposed to scientific research). If it is the same size as an admin shuttle, and based on the same technology level, it ought to be much better at its very specific role - inflicting pain on the malefactors - than a shuttlecraft which is a compromise design performing a bunch of different roles. That's why I don't buy the notion "where fighters and shuttles are merged in functionality". If you build a system to perform a bunch of different roles, it will not be as good at a specific role as a system of comparable size, with comparable tech, optimized for that role.
| By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, November 05, 2019 - 11:31 pm: Edit |
Alan,
If I Understand Correctly, X2 fighters (except possibly Hydrans) are forbidden.
Seems like that particular door is nailed, sealed with molten lead and cast into a single titanium block of metal.
Some thoughtful person added a sign that says "Abandon all hope...."
Are you sure you want to crack that baby open!?!
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, November 06, 2019 - 12:01 am: Edit |
Jeff,
I think you misunderstand my objection. I don't want X2 fighters. But if you could, at X2 level, make an admin shuttle as powerful as a PF, or even an INT, how do you plausibly exclude them? What's to stop empires from designing ships with huge numbers of "shuttles"; de facto carriers? And per my 10:58 PM response to Ted, what's to stop empires from building shuttles that are the same size as admin shuttles, but optimized for combat; X2 fighters in other words?
My suggested answer, per my 11:41 AM post, is that you don't make shuttles that powerful to begin with. If they have to be better then the advanced admin shuttles that X1 ships carry, make them better in other ways than giving them lots of integral combat power. Note my hypothetical suggestion for X2 shuttles being much better as wild weasels, for example. An improvement like that wouldn't justify X2 fighters, which, I repeat, I don't want to see.
| By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, November 06, 2019 - 05:36 am: Edit |
Ah.
I see.
But that takes us back to the old saw of "just because YoU CAN do (fill in the blank) something, is not a reason / justification that you should".
It may be another case of incremental improvement (perhaps a modest speed increase to shuttles assigned to X2 Star ships. Perhaps some new mission capabilities (added to the science, cargo, personnel, wild weasel, suicide assault and scatter pack) missions shuttles already can perform.
But making shuttles as combat powerful as a PF or a INT might not be god for the game either.
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, November 06, 2019 - 10:49 am: Edit |
@Alan,
Yes, I understand your point, and it is entirely valid. Given a certain tech level, a specialist piece of equipment should be better at a certain role than a generalist piece of equipment.
Here's my point: Worrying about incremental changes between X-2 admins and X-2 fighters relative to GW counterparts is fruitless if we haven't answered the foundational questions of 1) whether we are going to have those units in the first place, 2) how those units would interact with contemporary X-2 ships, and 3) what missions and roles are envisioned for the X-2 era.
In other words, we don't want to lose sight of the forest for the trees. I'm far less concerned about specific fighter/shuttle/ship relationships as I am about the overall missions and roles of the ships in the first place, given a technology level. So, I'm not worried about fighter/shuttle balance until I get to that decision point in the design process.
For example, it is clear that SVC does not want X-2 to just be the GW tech bumped up to the next level. I.e., we don't want the same relationship between shuttles, fighters, and ships (corvette, FF, DD, CL, CA, BC, DN) that we did see in the GW and X-1 eras.
That is good for the interest level of the product IMO. I'd like to see X-2 to be different in *kind*.
OK, if so, then I could easily envision that the "shuttle" as that term is understood in the GW no longer exists - it is obsolete. Likewise, fighters would be obsolete. I'm still in speculation mode here, as maybe SVC still envisions a role for very small spacecraft. However, if we were to posit this idea, then it might be that a "shuttle" is really more like a "corvette" from a GW perspective. In a sense, X-2 ships are different versions of Andros - you have a ship that carries ships. One cruiser is supposed to control or patrol an entire sector, and it uses it's "shuttles" to do so. Or call them corvettes to keep nomenclature from becoming confusing between GW era units.
On the other hand, I could see a universe where many small "shuttles" with strategic range are envisioned for the developing galaxy. OK, great, then maybe they all look like a souped-up admin (think A-A-Admin).
However, just because we have an X-2 Admin does not mean we have to have an X-2 fighter. For example, the technology design of the ships may be such that fighters or shuttles of any kind just *cannot* be a significant threat against ships. If so, then we will not see a run-away development of carriers with ultra-powerful fighters dominating everything (i.e., everyone becomes like Hydrans).
Or maybe you do. That's all part of the design/mission/role process.
Again, the foundational questions are: 1) whether we are going to have those units in the first place, 2) how those units would interact with contemporary X-2 ships, and 3) what missions and roles are envisioned for the X-2 era.
The answers to those questions will drive whether we have X-2 admins and fighters in the first place, and, if so, what differences they have. Worrying about runaway carriers with runaway fighters just because the X-2 admin is more powerful than an A-admin is a concern, but only if one assumes that fighters are going to be a consideration in the first place.
To be honest, I'm not sure any of our discussions are going to be that much of an influence on Steve Cole about X-2. He might cherry-pick certain ideas that look good, but until he decides for himself what the design parameters are, the rest of the details are pure speculation.
I'd rather focus the conversation on the "big picture" issues - what is the X-2 galaxy going to be like? Does SVC even want to have shuttles and fighters in this era? What is the role of ships in the "new order?"
In the old Supplement 2 (oops, sorry, "The Product Which Shall Remain Unnamed") X-2 ships were ultra powerful, but they had responsibility to control trade in absolutely huge sectors of space. The neutral zones were bigger, and the dominant theme was the "trade wars" between the empires. In other words, less worried about outright existential conflict between empires, and rather trying to maintain trade advantages in very large sectors of space. Navies are small, and cruisers are both rare and exceedingly powerful. There are no dreadnoughts and battlecruisers.
OK. Foundational question - is this still the order of the day? Is this the Galaxy envisioned for the new X-2 product?
If so, then I could *very* much see a scenario like one of these two options:
1) X-2 cruisers are all "carriers". They carry 6-12 "shuttles" that have shields and strategic range, but are ineffective against X-2 ships. All have generic roles, because the X-2 cruiser needs to send personnel and influence in a truly huge area. Fighters do not exist because, even if specialized, a fighter is *still* not effective against X-2 ships. That being said, maybe there *are* fighters, but their role is not to attack ships (which due to tech design is pointless), but to attack the shuttles of the enemy. At which point you still have "better" fighters than admins - but there's still no concern for runaway carriers due to the tech mashups.
2) X-2 cruisers are "motherships." Each carries, or is dockable to, 2-4 corvette ships that are all SC4, but of varying sizes. It is expected that, except in special circumstances, most corvettes are deployed for the same roles mentioned above. In this design, "shuttles" (as used in the GW) simply don't exist, as they are completely obsolete. "Shuttles" and fighters can't hurt X-2 units (or not really), improved transporter technology and corvettes assume all of the roles that shuttles used to have (i.e., heavy-duty transport), etc. In this era, SHIPS completely dominate and the only "shuttles" you find are old jalopies owned by random colonists.
Note that in option 1 we can have shuttles, but not fighters. In option 1 we also could have shuttles *and* fighters, but no runaway carrier problem. We cannot assume that just because X-2 shuttles exist that X-2 fighters exist, or assume that if X-2 fighters exist we will have runaway carriers. It all depends on the foundational design/role considerations. Again, this is my point.
My *personal* favorite is option 2. I like the idea of entering an era of *ships* only. But that's just me.
Anyway, it's all just speculation, because ultimately SVC will do whatever he wants.
I just want him to do it! I want to see the SFU history completely fleshed out before he retires - hopefully X-2 comes out in the next 2 years!!!
OK, I've said my piece.
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, November 06, 2019 - 11:06 am: Edit |
I guess there's a third option, closer to the original X-2: There are no fighters are shuttles, period. The normal strategic *speed* of X-2 ships is equivalent to "strategic movement speed" in Federation and Empire. If so, then an empire can take the few X-2 ships it has and concentrate them at a moment's notice in response to a threat. Again, ship-based fighters and shuttles are rendered obsolete due to other improvements in X-2 tech (i.e, improved transporter capacity and range, transporting through shields, etc.) so X-2 ships don't carry fighters at all in favor of cargo used for trade war missions.
Possibilities are really endless.
| By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Wednesday, November 06, 2019 - 11:27 am: Edit |
I envision the Trade Wars as a jockeying for economic advantage. The X2 (and X1) ships function as raiders playing economic games to vie for local advantage with rare outbreaks of open hostility. The GW fleets are comparatively slow that they are basically redeployable fixed defenses in this kind of conflict. As the era continues and X2 becomes dominant and the GW ships are starting to be phased out the Xorks show up and the galaxy goes back to regular murderous mayhem.
I dislike the corvette and PF shuttle ideas. It just replaces attrition units instead of phasing them out.
Shuttles have all kinds of uses and I doubt they can go away. You need them for those planets you cannot beam down to due to atmospheric interference, to move cargo that cannot be transported, to evacuate some of the crew in a crisis or battle, and to send Lieutenant Redshirt to Starbase 4 on short notice without having to divert the whole ship.
| By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, November 07, 2019 - 09:10 pm: Edit |
I would not be in a hurry to advance X2-era admin shuttles much farther than what is seen with X1-era advanced shuttles already. Perhaps it might be enough to up the speed and damage capacity on an X2-Admin from 8 to 10 respectively while adjusting the BPV accordingly, and to avoid giving them the 50%/200% bonus possessed by the actual ships themselves.
I wouldn't mind a Hydran Stinger-X2, though I wouldn't necessarily wish to see it offer much more than the current Stinger-X either.
Now, with the return of the GSX Sakharov from the Omega Octant in Y219, one could perhaps consider whether or not any of the "generic" Omega fighter pods listed under (OJ3.0) would become available in the Alpha Octant from that point onwards. But even then, this might only apply at that stage to X2-MRS shuttles (should such things be made to exist), outside of Hydran space at least.
For example, even in the Omega Octant, the Iridani tend to only use shield pods (OJ3.44) on their gigs (OR14.S1), depending on the whims (or Quest conditions) of the ship's commanding officer. In the Alpha Octant, one might perhaps only see a Klingon diplomatic cruiser, or a Federation VIP transport, follow suit - and even then, only if the ship purchases an X2-MRS for the diplomat to make use of.
Personally, the aspect of this module I'd be most keen to see is how the various Alpha Octant empires will expand their respective horizons in the post-Unity era. Be it in those empires which use the chains of bases placed during Operation Unity to maintain an ongoing presence in the Lesser Magellanic Cloud; how the Tholians of the Holdfast set out to establish contact with their cousins in Draco; or how the Sakharov's return might spark a new set of responses - not least in terms of how the Gorns might react to the news that their old Paravian nemeses turned out not to be quite so extinct after all...
The post-Unity Alpha Octant will mark a very different era than anything that has been seen before it, even before the Xorkaelian Tyranny shows up to cause trouble in Y210. And while I would not expect Module X2 itself to explore such new frontiers in any great detail, its very existence as a product would in turn allow other new projects, such as a would-be "Module C5R", to perhaps move forward in the fullness of time.
Which of course, is one reason why I'd hope to see a set of X2-tech survey ships, not least a Federation "XGS", be made to appear in SSD form: so as to provide the most direct means by which second-generation X-technology can be used take part in this new "Age of Discovery".
| By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, November 07, 2019 - 09:24 pm: Edit |
I think technology sloshing from the Omega octant to the Alpha octant is not a thing that should happen. Let's see an X2 product for the core SFB empires before thinking about exotic things.
Also, I think until Omega is more fleshed out we shouldn't work on any X2 stuff for them.
| By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, November 07, 2019 - 09:36 pm: Edit |
On further review, the only pod type listed in (OJ3.0) which might be an option here would be the shield pod - and the rules for it are fairly self-contained. As in, you don't need to be familiar with Hiver Barb fighters in order to use it; one could perhaps take the rules as they are out of the Omega Master Rulebook and re-present them here with minimal modifications.
Also, I agree that X-tech in the Omega Octant might take a while longer to get around to. But once Module X2 exists in print, it would be less of a hurdle to work out what, if any, X1 and/or X2-ships for the surviving LMC empires might look like, as something to perhaps consider for the aforementioned "Module C5R" proposal.
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