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Mike: No you aren't. Your arguing to argue as near as I can tell and grabbing at things like accusing it of being tech sloshing to let them use their own damned weapon system. Thats why I'm getting annoyed with you. That, and your arguing agasint something without actually playing the weapon on the race. Not to mention it hasn't been about giving them the PC. They already HAVE the PC. It's been about why would they produce the more expensive PC over the less costly disrupter.

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They already HAVE the PC.

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It's been about why would they produce the more expensive PC over the less costly disrupter.

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I don't dislike PC's, now that the overload rules have been fixed. They have some nice advantages, like firing twice in one turn, and they have that capacitor system. They are also the only heavy weapon I know of right off hand that can be hastily repaired. The big arguments for not replacing them are as others have said; it doesn't make economical sense for the Tholians to do it.

There are only two reasons to go through such a drastic refitting program. One is if the proposed new weapon is siginificantly better than what you have, and therefore worth the presumed extra cost and hassle of changing them out. Photon refits are the obvious example. The other reason is if the new technology is significantly cheaper and easier to use, without being too inferior to existing weapons.

The switch fromd disruptors to PC's accomplishes neither of these.

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By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 10:27 pm: Edit

Uhh, for what it is worth, Daniel tends to play the Neo-Tholians VERY aggressively, more like Tholian Will, and in that context the PC is very effective. I have never seen him run Archeo-Tholians, and cannot say how he runs them. In my opinion, Neo-Tholians with PCs is not unreasonable, I would assume that they would either be deployed as photons, or not at all on Archeo-Tholians; however as it now stands Mike Raper is correct, and we are only discussing house rules, or alternate history. As far as resurrecting the PC at X2, that could be a good idea.

ADM

P.S. Mike, for what it is worth you did sound agressive in pointing out the rules limits, Dan had stated at the start of this that it was contrary to the current rules, he just wanted to disscuss why, when they were a Tholian design, the Tholians could not resurrect them.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 10:29 pm: Edit

Alan: I'm not sure about price. either equal or +2 per PC. The option mount cost for a disr 30 was close to a PC if I remember correctly.

***************

Mike: Whatever. I didn't really make a personal attack. I just said what if felt like you were doing in my view. We understood that you don't like the idea at all a long time ago. Fine. Drop it and move on. We don't need to listen to you mindless chest thumping for more of this discussion. Rules quoting has it's place. Just not in this type of thread where the purpose was to look at a certain thing about changing a given rule and how it would be implemented if it was.

You want to quote rules? Go over to the Q&A thread and help out there. It just only has so much usefulness in this sort of discussion.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 10:34 pm: Edit

DKT: They way you characterize Mike is not how I know him. He has never been anything but helpful and I can honestly stand and say if Mike Raper is doing something it comes from that.

A proposal isn't going to go anywhere if it contradicts current rules and SVC HATES errata and will never create any on purpose unless it is vital tothe games survival.

I noticed that Mike pointed out that X2 is as yet unwritten and a PC could certainly be a possability there but the rules on them showing up earlier are pretty black and white.

Your options are pretty much SSJ and X2, AFAICT.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 10:52 pm: Edit

Gentlemen - a small point here, although the Tholians arrived with PCs, they didn't arrive with PC production facilities, they probably did have PC repair facility, which is NOT the same thing. Without production, a repair facility has a limited life span (then you can only scrounge parts off of pre-existing [and hopefully not fully working] models).

For a while, the repair shop could build new PCs, but this would make it run of out of key parts even faster then merely repairing them. So that the Tholians would end up where they did, needing a heavy weapon they could build and maintain.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 11:10 pm: Edit

ADM: o.O I thought I played them rather defensivly myself....

Loren: Even if it is, he can be nicer about things than he was/is. It's the whole agressive way it felt like he tried to slam everything down that has me annoyed with him.

I don't mind discussion and debate. Just not the way he was doing it *sigh*

I apoligize if I came off as to agressive as well but I'm just frustrated with him and do not really feel like responding to what feels like a very agressive manner from him.

I don't really see this as errata. Just some something to stick in a future module R or X. It's not like it hasn't been done before for one race or another.

SWF: I don't *think* I disputed that...just asked why it wouldn't be possable, once the 312th arrived 100 years later with personel that knew how stuff worked, for the Tholians to have the option to use particle cannons, even if in limited numbers.

As far as why they would stick disrupters on the arriving Neo's I imagine that was to get them into the field as fast as possable. No matter how simple the weapon, and as Alan and I have both I think pointed out, it does take time to restore or build facilities to produce a given system. And with disrupters already in production it is faster to just use them on the Neo ships that to wiat for PC facilites to be built and produced.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 11:14 pm: Edit

ADM,

I am not trying to sound aggressive. But DKT basically said I was just arguing for the pure hell of it, and that isn't so. Quoting why I think that the Tholians won't get PC's is part of rebutting that. I started in this thread by stating my opinions about why they wouldn't do it if they could...others did, as well. That hasn't been enough though, apparently, as he won't concede that there are good and sufficient reasons outside of the rules for not doing so. Alan, Kenneth, myself, and others all posted examples.

"Mindless chest thumping". Sweet. You really aren't helping yourself here with that sort of thing, you know. Telling you the facts of life about the game in reference to what you want is hardly "mindless chest thumping". If you want to discuss the "whys and hows" of PC's vs. Disruptors, then address the post I quoted above where I said why I don't think it's a good switch. From what I can tell, you seem to feel the Tholians somehow deserve PC's because they are "theirs"...even when every single source tells you that isn't so. Any attempts at discussing the relative merrits of PC's vs. disruptors seems to be lost on you, and you retreat into this mantra of "They are theirs, so why shouldn't they have them!" Alan tried it, I tried it, others tried it. Aside from "being theirs" what other reasons are their to switch to PC's?

Let me try it this way. The Tholians of the Holdfast have never even seen a particle cannon. Prior to stealing disruptor tech, they didn't have any heavy weapons at all. Once they got them, they used them extensively. Their entire fleet has trained for decades with the disruptor. Factories are built that churn them out. They have the DERFACS system to make them more accurate. They work just fine, and the Tholians do well enough with them to hold off anyone that tries to boot them out. When they need something else, something with some more punch, along come the Feds who give them the photon. They now have two very good, tried and true heavy weapons.

Then along comes the 312th. They have no working PC's to speak of, just a few samples and some records that show they did have them before they had to dismantle them all. The Tholian's backs are to the wall; the Klingons and Romulans have them hard put to it, and they need all the help they can get. They can produce all the disruptors they need, and quickly get the 312th back in the fight where they are desperately needed. Or, they can dick around for who knows how long trying to resurrect technology that they have no experience with, no infrastructure to support, and no easy guide to construct.

Given that, what should they have done? Exactly what the did do, which was get disruptors on those ships and get them the hell into the fight. There was no time to build the industrial base needed to produce PC's, and they'd have been fools to try given their situation. This is why I maintain that PC's are just not a good deal for them; not in the GW period, and not in the Andro one either. Only after all that is done (in other words, X2) will they have the luxury of sitting back and retooling to take advantage of PC tech. They'll have new captured samples, captured Selts to get info from, and most importatly, the time needed to make it work. I have no objection to PC's for X2 Tholians; heck, we even played around in the threads with "particle disruptors" that combined elements of both, as a unique Tholian weapon.

Now, if that isn't good enough, I don't know what else to do.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 11:25 pm: Edit

To hell with it. You guys can discuss whatever you like about them back and forth. I'm done listening to Mike tell everyone how things absolutely must be no matter what.

Alan and the rest: thanks for at least discussing it.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 11:49 pm: Edit

Daniel, if you dont like it when folks point out the rules and explain that there is a histrorical background that prevents the idea you propose, you might not like it around here much.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 12:31 am: Edit

Let's not forget that they have a limited but reasonable supply of photons. The DP and DPW has a mix of Photons and Disruptors. I can't think of anything that beats that.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 06:48 am: Edit

I give up. You ask for someone to compare disruptors and PC's; I did that. You ask for someone to explain why disruptors are a better choice than PC's, as part of a hypothetical discussion, and setting aside the rules. Did that, too. None of that is good enough. What you really want, it seems, is agreement. Sorry. I won't just agree that Tholians should get PC's, and that PC's are better than disruptors to make you happy.

I take issue with your assertion that I won't "discuss" it. I have discussed it, from the day the thread started. I have posted several times exactly why, both tactically and economically, that switching from disruptors to PC's isn't a good move for the Tholians. I haven't attacked anyone, told anyone that they can't post here, or told them that their ideas are "mindless". In fact, I specifically told you that you should be allowed to discuss this no matter what the outcome would be, because such conversations generate new ideas. I told you that I agree that X2 Tholians would have the time and resources necessary to build PC's for thier X2 fleet; a good move, as it gives us the first ever X particle cannon, and makes "what was old new again", so to speak. I even took the time to create and post an SSD so that people could see such a ship, with it's new weapons, and compare the changes in power needs, firing arcs, and damage potential. Again, none of this seems to be enough for you.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do. I'm sorry you think I'm jumping on you with the rules, or that I somehow hijacked this conversation. All any of us, myself included, were trying to do was explain why what you wanted didn't seem a good idea to us. You've obviously chosen to single out my position for some reason, even though no one else involved agrees with you on this subject either and that much of what I said, others said before me. I hope this doesn't keep you from posting a proposed X2 PC in the X files threads. You obviously have lots of experience with them, so such input would be welcome. But I'll reiterate what Cfant says; if what you want to do is in clear violation of the rules, and doesn't make good "historical" sense to boot, don't expect everyone to agree with you.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 09:06 am: Edit

Well, this has degenerated to a dissapointing end.

PCs are an interesting weapon, the reasons for the Alpha Tholians not building them appears to be primarily economic, the argument of already producing Disruptors vs. trying to produce a new weapon while under seige is well argued.

Due to the defensive nature of the Alpha Tholians their best weapon choice would be photons, with the ability to hide behind web and wait for someone to close negates the hitting at range problem that photons have and, frankly makes hitting Tholian fixed points more painful.

As far as reintroducing the PC, waiting for mature X tech, or X2 would appear to be the appropiate solution.

On Mike R.
I would aggree with Loren, Mike tends to be one of the more level headed and helpful members on this board. My point was that Daniel had acknowledged the rule problem with Alpha Tholian PCs, and was trying to discuss what other limitations exist to the PC being adopted.

ADM

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 09:47 am: Edit

ADM,

Thanks...I do try! I don't know that this is a total dissapointment. In the x-files thread under X-Tholians, I posted a few ideas for an X2 particle cannon. Maybe something good will come of that, and we'll see X2 Tholians with a new weapon of their own.

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 11:29 am: Edit

I'm not convinced that the problem is primarily economic, as I use the term (the PCs are too expensive to research and retrofit), but a matter of the technology base of the holdfast. Perhaps an analogy would be appropriate:

Suppose that, for the sake of argument, a squadron of 1970s-era ships were transported to Pearl Harbor in late December, 1941. Let us suppose these are CA, CL, and DD conversions to use guided missiles, so modernized Baltimores, Clevelands, and Gearings. Let us further suppose the missile systems were damaged during the transition. Would the USN spend a lot of time and money, and ship time, researching those missile systems, or would they remove everything recoverable and reinstall the guns?

Bear in mind, the Navy would have roughly the same access to trained personnel from this more modern squadron. Lots of gunners mates and such who understand how these missiles work, but nothing at all about missile, guidance, or propellant design and manufacture. Even if there are a couple of intact missiles to examine and disect it would be quite some time (years, maybe decades) before the technological base caught up enough to allow the missiles to be produced.

Bear in mind also that while the US would, by 1943 or so, probably have the resources to spend on researching these missiles, the Tholians most certainly do not. The Tholians, by the time the 312th arrived, were fighting for their very lives and throwing everything they could get their hands on at the Klingons to hold them off. I doubt the Tholians could even afford to keep those precious gunners mates and gunnery officers, who are the sole source of practical experience with PCs, in safe locations where their knowledge could be preserved against that future peactime when the Holdfast could afford to research PCs. So expect a substantial chunk of practical knowledge regarding PCs to be lost in the remaining years of the GW and the Andro Invasion. Blueprints and technical specifications? Sure they're useful for research, but if they call for unobtainium then it will be a long time before the technology base can come up with a substitute.

The short version of what I'm saying is, don't discount the technical challenges of bringing PCs into production, even with captured examples and personnel who can repair them and make examples in good repair work. Reintroduction of the PC might as well go hand in hand with other major research efforts, such as X2.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 11:42 am: Edit

Chris: That wasn't the problem. Mike's insistance on beating people over the head with the rulebook when the rule had been acknolaged a long time ago was the problem.

Mike: Sure. saying "Sure, discuss" it while at the same time stomping over any sort of discussion by thumping rules books. As far as "singling you out"; I didn't do that. You did that yourself with your "I'm right no matter what anyone else says" attitude. bah.... I don't even know why I came back to the boards anymore.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 11:51 am: Edit

Oh, God, whatever. You've clearly shown you have no interest in anything short of total agreement with your plan. Everyone has tried and tried to get through to you that PC's aren't a good idea for the Tholians, but you completely ignore anything proposed no matter how logical, reasonable or balanced. The reason I and others beat you over the head with the rules was as a way to get you to acknowldge that what you want isn't legal. In other words, we tried to explain it the way you wanted - through rational discourse and a logical application of game history - and when you showed no interest in what was said, we had to fall back on the rules.

Where is your response to what I posted last night about why they shouldn't use them, eh? If you're so hot to discuss it, then do it and quit bitching about people trampling you. I'm tired of this whining...either intelligently rebut the reasons I and multiple other people have posted for not doing what you want, or drop the matter and move on. I said why I don't think they should have them, rules aside. Now, tell me why I'm wrong.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 12:39 pm: Edit

It is not stomping an idea to point out there is a rules violation. Rule changes happen to fix broken rules not to accomodate new rules. SVC has laid the law down on that many years ago (and reitterated it dozens of times).

BTW: PB's for GW Tholians have been proposed and refused by ADB before.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 01:03 pm: Edit

The same can be said of you Mike. From my perspective the others were at least willing to talk about it. Your response very quickly was something differnt.

I don't ignore everything anyone else says. Alan and the others said one thing and we went back and forth.

The lack of response to your post last night is due to me not caring anymore about anything you personally post. Correct or not.

your tired of the "whining" fine. I'm tired of your attitude. Now we can move on. I won't be responding to this thread any further barring someone asking me something specifcly.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 01:22 pm: Edit

Your loss, chief. I still think you should contribute to the X2 thread, and hope you do. But given your attitude, I doubt it'll happen. Good luck on this board in the future. I think you'll find that you'll go through this sort of thing again if you don't loosen up and learn to disagree without getting bent out of shape over imagined attacks and such.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 02:10 pm: Edit

Daniel, drop it already.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 12:52 am: Edit

Skimming the boards again a long long time after the fact. Found this thread.

Sorry for being confrontational mike. I looked to have been irked and finding this a number of years later I wanted to apologize. Better absurdly late then never eh?

By David Schultz (Ikvavenger) on Monday, March 30, 2015 - 02:06 pm: Edit

John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 03:55 pm:


"Nobody has yet mentioned the obvious problem.

The PC is a sad little weapon.

All the heavy-hitting crunch power of a disruptor and all the pinpoint accuracy of the photon torpedo. It's power-hungry too, the only capacitor-driven weapon that has a hold-cost, let alone half the capacitor energy.

It was insanely bad before it was revised, when only the first shot per turn could be the overloaded.

To boil this down, the Disruptor is simply a better weapon. Why would the tholians *want* to outfit even one ship with PCs?"

And

"I think the ADB went overboard in sticking limitations onto the PC and hasn't quite corrected enough, though there is some disagreement on that last point."

Our FTF group looks at the PC as a uniquely Seltorian weapon without regard to whether or not the Tholians have or should have the weapon.

After much discussion we decided that the PC, while needing some restrictions, was far restricted far too much. We looked at options that wouldn't effect the SSD chart (we didn't think the answer was in modifying the to-hit rolls or damaged produced).

We decided to playtest the following modifications:

1. The impulse delay between firings was reduced from 12 impulses to 8. With the 12 impulse delay, coupled with the D turn mode was felt to be to restrictive. Particularly between turn-breaks.

2. Hold cost was removed from the capacitor system to be in line with other capacitor systems.

Playtesting so far reveals that this is an improvement but not one that is OP. It doesn't automatically guarantee the second shot but it does give it a better chance. This is a help, particularly since the PC is not a crunch weapon and IIRC is actually a tad worse than the photon due to the range breaks.

Another possible modification being discussed is allowing the PC to combine it's OL and standard shot into one shot. This of course would be the only shot allowed for the turn. Considerations being discussed are:

* Power requirements - on the table is all power in the full capacitor (5) plus one battery at the time of firing.

* Range - Obviously not beyond R8 and possibly closer.

* A one-turn cool down period if fired as a combined shot.

This has not been implemented or play tested but I thought I'd toss it out for discussion.

By Mark Steven Hoyle (Markshoyle) on Monday, March 30, 2015 - 03:51 pm: Edit

Consider the PC was not designed to combat ships with Alpha sector weapons. Trying to balance it against them goes against the point it was designed for.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Monday, March 30, 2015 - 04:50 pm: Edit

Not sure i agree with that, the Seltorians do most of their fighting against ships using alpha sector weapons. Tholians use disruptors, so it needs to be balanced against those, and as disruptors are kinda the standard weapon, that means in practice balancing it against most of the alpha sector.

I think the PC is a much better weapon than it gets credit for. Sure, firing the first shot standard or the second shot OL is kind of bad, but if you fire first shot OL and second standard, you are doing fine.

The only improvement that i think the PC needs is that, if it fired only once on turn N, there should be only an 8-impulse delay before firing on turn N+1. That is a comparatively small change and would remove the biggest problem with the weapon, namely, that the supposed rapid - fire weapon is in many situations actually a rather slow - firing weapon.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Monday, March 30, 2015 - 04:53 pm: Edit

I think MSH hit the nail on the head. Personally, I think the PC is pretty crappy but not all races can develope weaponry as well as the next one, especially from another galaxy.
::::: Go Milky Way :::::

For what its worth, I've designed a race or two with the premise that they just managed to survive in their own little star cluster. In the long run, they really had no chance in such a violent galaxy, not without allies. The Selts probably thought the PC was an awesome weapon until they were pummeled by something much punchier.

As a last note, I think your playtest group did a great job trying to make the PC a better weapon. Perhaps, had the Selts survived, and should they stick with the PC (cough), these might be good refit designs. SFB is a fluid game with a living constitution.