You are a Romulan starbase commander on the Federation border with 6 mine packages and a very well established regular civilian as well as military traffic pattern.
You are expecting a mixed Fed/Gorn fleet to attack your starbase. How do you deploy your mine packages?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 02:53 pm: Edit

Randy Blair,

The objection I have to your question is that it is too "scenario-specific". I suggest that in most cases, the base commander won't have the ability to make more than minor adjustments to an already-existing minefield (for example, the base has some mines in storage and a few minelaying shuttles so he can augment a field that was actually layed down months ago) once the attack is on is on its way. Deploying an entirely new minefield from scratch will (I submit) rarely be practical. It seems to me a more interesting question would be along the lines of a commander in charge of a base in the "northwest" part of Romulan space. He has no intel on any specific threat but knows that at some point in the next few months he may be attacked by either a Fed fleet, a Gorn fleet, or a mixed fleet. He also has no way of knowing whether, at the moment the attack does come, there will be substantial defensive support from the Romulan fleet or whether he will be basically relying on his own resources. How do you set up the minefield in that case?

A similar problem could be posed to a Kzinti or Hydran commander, who has to establish the minefield without knowing whether the attacker will be Klingon, Lyran, or mixed. Or a Klingon base might be positioned such that the attackers might be either Kzinti or Hydran.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 03:07 pm: Edit

Well, I tried to make it generic, but got very few bites. Can't please everyone...

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 03:57 pm: Edit

Randy,

Speaking of generic versus specific, my favorite empire is the Tholians. Their minefields don't look like anyone else's, because of the webs that will usually be part of the defense.

I've never submitted a "term paper" but among the topics I have considered was a paper on optimizing minefields to support a "wedding cake" defense. Ultimately, I decided that what I was planning to write would already be known to people who played Tholian base defense scenarios, and not interesting to people who did not.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 04:08 pm: Edit

Tholian wedding cake and mines.

Shudder.

Expect to lose ships. A lot of ships.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 06:29 pm: Edit

In my experience the only way to take out Tholians supported by mines is to part outside the base and wait for them to starve or for their ships and the base to break down due to lack of spare parts.

I assaulted a Tholian Base Station defended by mines once. Never again.....I think Tholians should be unable to use mines in the vicinity of a webbed base. For technobabble claim that long-term exposure to the emissions of the web have a negative effect on the mines but that is probably not going to happen.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 07:19 pm: Edit

Well. If you outlaw established minefields, the Tholians will make do (and be effective with) T-bombs. Particularly against a force that doesn't start the scenario right on top of the base (like, within 20 hexes of the base. At this range, the attacker just might take shots at down shields, even though they are outside of range 15). Under normal circumstances, the attacker should be pushed out to range 50 or so, but that can be considered unbalancing (though more realistic) because it gives the tholians another turn to beef up the webs

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 07:45 pm: Edit

True, but that means the Tholians are at least limited to 10 point exploders and can't lace their defenses with Nuclear Space Mines and Captor Mines set to go off while you are stuck in the web. Web basebusting would still be hell but slightly less hellish.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 08:09 pm: Edit

Thing about Tbolians and mines is if there are some in the outers webs, the Tholians are cutting any chance to reinforcing it since mines are neutral (or clueing in invaders where the field is weaker)!

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 08:24 am: Edit

Only if it's a wedding cake. A buzzsaw with mines will hurt a lot.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 01:57 pm: Edit

Mines in the outer webs can be set to radius zero and not set off by units reinforcing web. Mines actually in web hexes probably should be set to radius zero detection anyway since the web will stop much of the damage in surrounding hexes. Detonating mines is embarrassing even if the ships are unaffected by it.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 05:09 pm: Edit

Speaking of Tholian bases, has anyone tried to use a Seltorian Battlewagon from Module R12 to go after one?

Historically, the use of the BW was a key element in overthrowing the Will (and in facilitating the mass xenocide of the Tholian species in the home galaxy). But given its slow speed, limited firing arcs, and emphasis on mounting web breakers rather than particle cannons (to make it easier to destabilize Tholian spheres), would it be best used to try and capture a "standard" Tholian base rather than destroy one?

And how much of a challenge would it be for the defenders to concentrate enough firepower in time to cripple the beast before it got close enough to commence boarding operations?

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Thursday, September 18, 2014 - 05:38 pm: Edit

SFB is played with starships with hundreds of crewmen on board. Like the big navel ships we have today. Yet when i think of tactics i go with large airplane fighter planes. With lots of weapons and speed. I can fire my weapons and in less then a min of game time be past the target point. More like modern jet fighters. How does everybody else feel about that?

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Thursday, September 18, 2014 - 08:31 pm: Edit

Moving slowly and firing many times, as is with the wet-navy, gives the game a very different flavor and introduces a very different dynamic than SFB has. There it is all about how heavy your guns are and how far away you are from him when the fighting started.

Moving very quickly and firing many times is also a very different flavor than what SFB has. Many video games do this, where you run at eachother and then turn on the firepower hose. There it matters more what is your damage-per-second (or whatever your time unit it).

SFB is a game of high speed and slow rate-of-fire. In that situation, it can matter that you have a heavier gun than him, but it matters more what your relative locations and facings are, when the guns are ready to fire. Thus you might be able to fire your light gun(s) at him several times before he can fire his heavy gun at you.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, September 18, 2014 - 08:46 pm: Edit

On the one hand, even battles in the Early Years don't quite fit into a comparison with modern wet-navy tactics. W- and Y-era ships may be slower, but most of them have phaser-2s and fewer (and non-overloadable) heavy weapons to throw around.

But on the other hand, I've been led more to believe that Age of Sail combat might be a better comparison. While only a handful of fleets go as far as the Iridani in terms of adopting a "broad-siding" emphasis, the broader concept of ships using maneuver to bring shorter-ranged batteries to bear seems to be in play. (Indeed, those same firepower reductions which are noted above for the Early Years may emphasise this in that time period, since it's harder to land a single telling blow in any given exchange.)

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Thursday, September 18, 2014 - 09:12 pm: Edit

To change the dynamic, play with plotted movement (C1.32). Tactics are very different with ships moving 10 hexes or less except when disengaging.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 12:22 pm: Edit

I wasn't sure whether to put this here or in the Andromedan tactics thread, but anyway:

I recall there being a discussion a while back on the BBS, concerning what the most powerful (or at least, the most expensive BPV-wise) single unit in each known region of space would be - to include any associated fighters, PFs, Commander"s Option items, and what have you.

Since I've been thinking about the Andromedan War lately, I was minded of a new challenge:

What is the best RTN-hunter per empire? And of those units, which would be the most effective in the game overall?

This would cover Alpha, Omega, and the LMC, but would have a particular catch: the ship itself must have at least one special sensor mount (or option mount, or active pod or module) attached. So an X-PFT would be eligible (since the hull itself has sensors it can use to scan for hidden RTN nodes), but an SCS would not (since, for the purposes of this challenge, it would not be able to rely on a PFS or PFQ to do the scanning for it*).

This could include historical ships, unbuilt variants, and campaign conjectural hulls - but not "impossible to build" units.

-----

To use a Romulan example, I'd argue that the most powerful RTN-hunter they historically built (prior to Y205, at least) was the FireHawk-EX Admiral Centius from Module X1R, as it combined the enhanced raw power and operational speed of the base "Fire-Axe" hull with a strong sensor suite and its attached flotilla of PFs.

But perhaps an even more dangerous ship for this role would have been the infamous REDHawk (a DemonHawk with a pair of SparrowHawk-E modules plus a single SkyHawk-C module installed) - while it would have been somewhat slower than an X-ship in actually reaching an uncovered RTN node, it would have had even more firepower to throw around once it got there.

-----

*That brings up an interesting question: Can a PFS or PFQ be used by a ship without its own special sensors to search for RTN nodes, or does it have to be the actual ship itself that does the scanning and what have you?

(For what it's worth, I"d prefer it to be the actual ship that has to do the effort, if only to make things a little tidier from a campaign perspective.)

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 01:22 pm: Edit

I would concur that the REDHawk is superior to the FEX as an RTN hunter. I think speed is most important for "responder" hunters who must reach the RTN node quickly if the initial "finder" doesn't have the firepower to take the node (plus defenders) on by itself. But the ideal "finder" is a ship with special sensors that also has the total firepower necessary to get the job done by itself. An FEX is certainly good at this, but the REDHawk is better.

I still believe the best RTN hunter of all is the Kzinti Super Space Control Ship.

Regarding your "interesting question", despite the fact the A.3 (if I'm recalling the rule number correctly) categorizes PFs as ships for some purposes, I don't believe a PFS could funtion as an RTN hunter. For one thing, the special sensors on a PFS are functionally similar to but not as powerful as the special sensors on "real ships". Also, the PFS would have to be a substantial distance from its tender, which would be difficult due to the comparatively limited range. And finally, a lone PFS with nothing else in the vicinity would be very vulnerable to any mobile Andro forces either directly defending the base or patrolling in the vicinity.

(edited for spelling after initial post)

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 01:25 pm: Edit

Addendum to the above:

In support of my statement that

---

Quote:

For one thing, the special sensors on a PFS are functionally similar to but not as powerful as the special sensors on "real ships".

---

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, January 29, 2015 - 02:19 pm: Edit

On the one hand, a PFQ might be better than a PFS in terms of undertaking stand-alone operations (or for use on casual tenders). But then, even it would have the same sensor limitations, so it probably wouldn't be any better at this particular task.

But even if neither gunboat type were of use in the search side of things, they might still be handy to take along to aid with the actual fighting.

-----

On that note, there were two Iridani cases I was thinking of.

One could be to take a Brigantine dreadnought, place the PF module plus a flotilla of gunboats from Module Omega 5 in the hindmost module slot, and put a survey module and a carrier module (or two survey modules) in the front and centre module slots respectively.

Another option could be to take the Man-O-War battleship, put two survey modules in the front pair of slots and two carrier modules in the aft pair (since the MW can"t take the currently-available PFM), and throw in a casual PFQ for good measure (with the assumption that the terms of the Crusade Quest mission would allow for one).

As with the modular Romulan ships, the base hulls of modular Iridani Quest ships retain their full firepower regardless of modules taken - though I do wish they had a proper dedicated "battle-scout" module to work with.

(While the MW is a more powerful unit than the BG, a half-squadron of Skiff fighters plus a flotilla of those beefy Iridani PFs arguably beats a full squadron of Skiffs with a lone casual gunboat.)

Alternatively, the Bolosco might have taken a light battle pod and a light research pod with their mercenary DN to field a powerful (if slow) RTN-hunter... had the Souldra not already done them in beforehand, that is. Unless any surviving DNs were among the Bolosco exiles which fled to Mæsron space after the fall of of their home colonies in Y191.

-----

Out in the LMC, there aren't too many options to go with thus far.

While the Baduvai have a PFT based on their war destroyer, it's not all that effective a combat platform (and neither are their under-powered PFs, for that matter).

The Maghadim have a CL-sized scout carrier, which can pack 16 fighters and three special sensors. That would probably be the best option in print for the LMC right now.

Alternatively, the Jumokian NCL from CL48 could take one or two survey Pinnace packs, and use its FA option mounts to load up on, say, a pair of CPA-3s.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, January 30, 2015 - 06:21 am: Edit

X PFTs are pretty good.

The Fed GVX is too...

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, January 30, 2015 - 12:06 pm: Edit

Michael,

Yes they are. But I think it's analytically useful to break "RTN Hunter" into 2 sub-categories, with different requirements. I referred to these above as "finders" and "responders". The non-negotiable requirement for "finders" is that they have special sensors. But firepower is also very useful. With enough firepower, the finder can attack the base itself, before the Andro can call in reinforcements. Speed per se is nice for a finder, but probably not critical.

A "responder" (which unlike a "finder" might be a fleet rather than a single ship) is what the "finder" calls in when the base is too large or too well defended for the "finder" to take on by itself. "Responders" don't need special sensors since they don't get into the action until the target location is known. Special sensors are nice for EW support during the actual battle. But they are not a critical requirement. The critical requirements for "responders" are speed (to reach the target before the Andro reinforcements) and firepower.

Now consider the REDHawk versus FEX, which Gary alluded to in his initial post on this topic. The REDHawk has the special sensors to find the base as well as "reduced DN" firepower. (Reduced because, although it has the plasma torpedoes of a dreadnought, it has fewer phasers.) It also brings a lot of PFs to the fight. The FEX ("reduced X-cruiser" firepower plus a standard PF flotilla) is inferior to the REDHawk in total firepower due to the latter's much larger PF contingent. But it still has impressive firepower, and is faster than the REDHawk. So in my opinion, the REDHawk is better as a "finder" (though the FEX is still very good) but the FEX is better as a "responder" because of its superior speed. That's the nice thing about X-ships with both special sensors and firepower (whether on-board or attrition units). They tend to be excellent in both roles.

That at least is how I see it.

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Friday, January 30, 2015 - 02:27 pm: Edit

I was thinking the Gorn SPS would be perfect, until I realized it's a true PFT with no special sensors. What the huh?
That said, could such a ship use a sensor drogue to troll for RTN signals, then reel it in and quickly respond? Or is the drogue just not powerful enough?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, January 30, 2015 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Troy,

My guess is that a sensor drogue isn't powerful enough. I suspect that you need a fully capable "ship mounted" sensor.

But how about this as an "unbuilt variant" anti-RTN version of of the SPS? Simply take an SPS and replace the plasma-F torps with special sensors. It seems it should be technically feasible and the resulting ship would be an awesome finder, approaching the SSCS.

You could make a similar "unbuilt variant" conversion of the Lyran SPS be replacing either 2 disruptors or 2 ESGs with special sensors.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, January 30, 2015 - 02:50 pm: Edit

Whoa! I just had a thought. There is an actual ship that, depending on just how much you are willing to discount speed for the "finder" mission, outclasses even the SSCS in that role.

The Seltorian Hive Ship, if I recall correctly, has special sensors. And it can carry 4 PF flotillas!. More to this; it can carry actual warships inside itself. If ships carried completely internally don't interfere with the special sensors RTN hunting capabilities (I don't recall this ever being addressed by ADB, but it seems plausible) then the Hive Ship could (slowly) search for RTN nodes and when it found them launch 4 full flotillas and (again, if I recall correctly) 2 CAs and 2 DDs in addition. (Or was it 2 CAs and 4 DDs? It's been a while since I have looked at the SSD,)

The Seltorians would never use it in that role historically. But dealing just with technical characteristics, the Hive Ship would seem to be the best finder of all.