On a different topic: I'm still trying to come up with something to write up for Captains Log. Suggestions? Or should I turn in an extended analysis of the latest gif map as posted on the BBS (with corrections as pointed out by the Vari...)?

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Tuesday, April 19, 2016 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Well, I do not recall starting a game at Y140.
The MM "scout variants" arrive at Y160. The military versions (from the ISC perspective anyway) also arrive at Y160. Perhaps an exception could be made. Otherwise, surveying open space would be impossible. Any minor or major neutral systems "discovered" could not be connected, thereby not able to produce EP's for the Galactic Power. Again, perhaps an exception could be made.

Just for Grins, the Tholian SC arrives at Y125. I may be forced to play a different race - one that has a SC available!

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Tuesday, April 19, 2016 - 01:44 pm: Edit

Oh, most of the issues are fixable- scouts are an obvious variant and can be retconed a few ways. SRs are much the same (or you simply limit when MRRs can be performed). Then you get into less common things- troop ships and the like. You still run into mobility issues.

Dial the timeline back too far and R&D projects in the existing rules can break things too. Heck, with enough planning time, imagine an empire that has R&D'd CW, PFs, CAX/FFX, and XCA/XDD to the 10 years early state. If they are the Lyrans or Klingons life gets even more nasty since they get many of those things early to start with...

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Tuesday, April 19, 2016 - 05:11 pm: Edit

Thanks for the ideas!

On the other hand, I would not like having to research a SC or SR early. Conversions are limiting enough as it is.

By Charles "Lucky" Coleman (Mwmiyd) on Tuesday, April 19, 2016 - 07:10 pm: Edit

I'd be game for Y140.

By John Burton Steele Sr. (Johnbsteele) on Tuesday, April 19, 2016 - 07:46 pm: Edit

I'm in for anything. My suggestion would be to have predetermined empire goals (ie: Klingons dislike Flatheads, must conquer the Hydrans, and openly hire pirates).

By John Coleman (Aligato) on Tuesday, April 19, 2016 - 07:47 pm: Edit

I like the idea of Y140.......it places the early emphasis on generic/merchant interaction and system building rather than rapid military buildup. Requires more empire interface and diplomacy (to include but not limited to lying, back-stabing, conspiring, etc,etc,etc)

By John Burton Steele Sr. (Johnbsteele) on Tuesday, April 19, 2016 - 07:52 pm: Edit

The Jindarians would RULE in Y140.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, April 19, 2016 - 08:19 pm: Edit

Does Galactic Conquest currently support the "what-if" Paravian and Carnivon fleets from SFB Module C6?

If so, perhaps one option for the Inter-Stellar Concordium could be to have their "peacetime" hulls' YIS dates adjusted to line up with other Alpha Octant powers, so long as a Paravian force is present. There are a number of alternate "Paravian timelines" in C6 which have this happen, plus a set of "early contact" rules for the ISC in Module Y2.

By Roy Steele (Emperor) on Tuesday, April 19, 2016 - 08:25 pm: Edit

I am IN!
1) Y160.
2) I am not in favor of a double blind map.
3) The original R@D rules =$600 not $1200 for an instant roll.
4) NPC races should defend their own territory but should NOT NOT NOT be able to go on the offensive (especially NOT every NPC race working together!), this is so game unbalancing it can not be.
5) if a person joins the game after the start, then that Empire should have 4 game turn's before being able to change political policies-this should apply to ---everyone---!
6) Please do not take this wrong but the GM should not be able to play a race (exception=until a race slot is filled) and then said race should have some automatic rules such as staying within its own borders defending and building itself, the main reason i say this is because there is a difference between GM knowledge and a races knowledge and it can be hard not to mix the two!
7) I do like N/S, E/W map edges connecting.
8) Do not allow races that are not directly next to each other to exchange R@D projects (exception =Spies or a ship traveling to other empire territory).
9) Planets should not be allowed to be destroyed by ANY means!

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Tuesday, April 19, 2016 - 09:31 pm: Edit

Gary- yes and no. Less concisely:

You can mix and match any SFB empire that has published ships into the mix. As long as they would be campaign complete in SFB, they should work. Ones that are less than complete may require some work (or an adjustment to play style). At present we've used all the Alpha empires (although the WYN seem to have issues and are off the playable empire list; and the Orions are too), a home brew empire (also off the list), as well as a smattering of simulator, LMC, and Omega empires. The map (wraps on the L/R edges) and empire list are in nearby topics if you want a more complete list of active empires and geography in use in one game (the gif maps I publish also have data on a few previous games if you go to http://sfb-galactic-conquest.org/).

Since the maps are only vaguely related to the historical ones (as an example the Romulans in the existing campaign have borders with the UFP, Gorn, close to but not actually touching the ISC, Canadien, Jindarians, Vari, and Tholians- basically 6 empires and a few others close enough that I could get to their space in 2 turns of movement [3 hexes per turn]), availability adjustments don't need to be done. You have hit upon a point I see hurting us however- the SFU historical timeline has the K/L/Z/H developing techs at about the same time, with the UFP, G, and R a few turns behind them, and the ISC even further off. In the current game, since the LDR can reach the ISC and given that there is a ~4 year tech difference between the two, things are a bit off (IMO). 8 turns of PF/PFT use against your enemy is a killer, and something similar will happen with X tech.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, April 19, 2016 - 10:37 pm: Edit

In that case, it's worth bearing in mind that the course of development in the "eastern" Alpha Octant was driven as much by necessity as it was by capability.

Since the Paravians went extinct in the Alpha Octant prior to establishing first contact with the ISC, and since neither the Gorns nor the Romulans were in any hurry to expand in that direction, the Concordium felt no particular need to upgrade their ships too quickly - but the underlying technological and industrial base required to do so had been strong enough to allow this to take place once it was deemed necessary. (This kind of detail is what you see in Module Y2.)

In the first and third alternate "Paravian timelines" from Module C6, the Paravians remain as an "on-map" power (using Mapsheet P). Since those two timelines have first contact with the ISC happen in Y110, this was early enough to oblige the Concordium to develop their "middle years" fleet much earlier, to match their new Paravian opponents. (Unfortunately for the Pronhoulites serving on ISC Navy and Police ships, it turns out that the Gorns aren't the only lizard species which the chickens have a problem with...)

So what this boils down to is that, if you are using a non-historical map and setup anyway, there is a precedent in print for giving the ISC (and, by extension, the Gorns - though the Romulans may be a more awkward topic to address) the same kind of starting point with "modern" (Tech Level 12) technology as that which the Module C6 Paravians would presumably start off with... were anyone to take them out for a spin here, that is.


And speaking of Module C6, the Carnivons shouldn't have any equivalent issues, in terms of when their "modern" ships enter service. They should be able to jump into the mix with the Lyrans and Kzintis more or less off the bat.

(If you don't have a copy of Module C6 already, and are in any way curious about what these "lost empires" bring to the table, I would recommend downloading the free preview PDF from Warehouse 23 or DriveThruRPG.)

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Wednesday, April 20, 2016 - 12:51 am: Edit

It is true, the Jindarians have some Y1 ships that the other races will not get at Y140. Yet everyone gets the base DN, CA, CL, DD, FF anyway (well I presume that they will even at Y140). The good stuff: carriers, war cruisers, PFT's, X-ships are still relatively normal. The range is from Y169 to Y184.

The Seltorians would be in bad shape. A quick glance shows that Y182 is the earliest for their ships.

The ISC does have really early ships, i.e. Y32. This would be the pre-Interstellar Concordium races (Korlivilar, etc.). Boy they are low in BPV. At least they are warp driven.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Wednesday, April 20, 2016 - 02:54 am: Edit

Yeah, pitting the pre-refit plasma races against the pre-refit direct fire races means, in my experience, that a lot of plasma ships are going to die. For comparison a Klingon D6 or D7 gets some drone upgrades, new tech systems, and some upgraded phasers with its refits. Good but not mind-blowing. The pre-refit Gorn CA has less then half of it's post-refit plasma power. Old Romulans get all their plasma but have other problems. The Kestrels are in the same situation as the Gorn in terms of refits.

It works as long as the map is designed to keep historical enemies in the same area. If not you may want to consider adjusting when some races get their refits. I would consider letting the Gorns and Romulan Kestrels get their S-torps early or even at start. As it stands those refits come around Y170, about 10 years after the Western powers start their first refit programs.

If I were running Hydrans and was adjacent to either of the early plasma powers I admit I would probably start salivating at the prospect of attacking them.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, April 20, 2016 - 10:38 am: Edit

The Seltorians are a good example of an empire which does not quite fit the kind of template being discussed here.

So far, there are no Middle Years or Early Years Selt ships in print. Indeed, given their history as an "uplifted" enforcer species for the Tholian Will, it may be that such earlier ship types never historically existed. As in, the "home galaxy" warship types they had at the time of the Revolt may have been the very same as those they were first given by the Tholians themselves. (With the partial exception of those cargo haulers converted into Battlewagons and Assaultwagons.)

Plus, when it comes to their Milky Way ship developments, those are partly due to technology and personnel transfers from the Klingons. The ability to field "three-boom" hulls (such as the NCL and DNL) seems to have been in part thanks to Klingon design studies; though this may have been a direct limit of the Hive Ship's own facilities, as opposed to those available to the Seltorian Suzerainty back in M81. Seltorian fighters were imported Klingon models (with ethnic Klingon and "subject race" pilots flying them, as Selts cannot fly fighters themselves). And of course, while Selts can fly their own PFs, they still need to acquire this technology from somewhere.

So, in a campaign like this one, the Selts are in an odd place. If they are allowed to arrive early (or are treated as a "home" faction, with a proper shipyard and full access to their M81 Galaxy fleet), their ships may be more powerful on a class-by-class basis than most of their pre-refit Alpha Octant counterparts. But on the other hand, if they are unable to forge an alliance with a power willing to share later technologies (and/or in a position to send mercenary pilots to help the Seltorians out), they may have inherent problems in terms of advancing their technology further on their own accord.


And they aren't the only ones which may be liable to cause such problems; the Andromedans and Souldra are themselves at risk of being either too powerful, or too limited, depending on how their respective logistical bases are to be handled.

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Wednesday, April 20, 2016 - 11:15 am: Edit

Guys- think very close to the F&E level, not SFB level. Tactical speed is an issue (Romulans, RYN?) as it maps back to strategic speed, mission variants are an issue (MS, SC, CV) as the lack of CVs, scouts and minesweepers have the obvious effects at the strategic level. Relative times when each empire gets CW/DW/X/PFT/FTR can be an issue as they affect squadron BPV density, replacement construction speed, etc.

BPV bumping refits are not an issue. Heck, if an empire is on the offensive refits are unlikely to be applied to existing ships in any case (refits only occur at shipyards and large bases which are several turns from the front- pulling a ship back for ~4 turns...). Tactical level things are not an issue unless they map back to strategic level things (i.e. ships susceptible to chain reactions are not an issue, specialized drones are not interesting). Weapons suite mismatches are not an issue (ex: H/Z vs. R; Hydran hellbores vs. pre-B refit Klingons). Commanders options and similar adjustments (beyond Prime Teams, MRS, MSS, legendary officers, and crew quality) are not in play.

Kestrels are so limited by the foreign ship rule that they are best used for scouts on picket duty, minesweepers, and SRs. Or scrapped. Trust me- I've played the Romulans enough to know.

By Dal Downing (Rambler) on Wednesday, April 20, 2016 - 01:54 pm: Edit

Selts really should be no more difficult than Tholians. They should get the base 1 and 2 boom hulls from the get go. Field Scouts when the Tholians field Scouts. Probably skip Single Fighters and go to Heavy Fighters. Get War Cruisers when the Tholians do.

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Wednesday, April 20, 2016 - 02:28 pm: Edit

Alternate sources of pilots are are too detailed- we don't worry about who is flying Selt/Gorn fighters. PFs/INTs fall in the same bucket. We don't really worry about where the Romulans get tactical warp from. If Kestrels are allowed at the start, how they got there and why someone would give an empire they are not allied to such ships is not worried about. Empires that historically used someone else's fighters/INTs/PFs get units that perform/cost/named the same but are native.

Outside of an Operation Unity/Andro Invasion type setting (tried Unity, didn't work), Andros are not in play. Other transient/pirate type empires also end up as NPCs or off the table.

Interspecies issues (Z/L for example) are often not in play.

We limit what would be a combined battle force in F&E substantially- players can't mix and match things to get F14/F15 fighters, Romulan escorts, maulers, SFGs, cloaks, drone bombardment, the best PF (by BPV), B11's, etc. in joint task forces.

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Thursday, April 21, 2016 - 12:12 am: Edit

Mike did a good job in providing the Triaxians with a wide range of ships (past Galactic Conquest game). I thought them competitive with the "regular" alpha races. Yes, it is possible to have a complete set of ships for one of those other races should a player wish to play them.

JB did so as well in the current Galactic Conquest game. We have Alunda, Canadien, Drex, Frax, Jindarian, Koligahr, Qari, Qixa, Ryn, Seltorian, and Vari. He may "Tweak" them a bit for future games if they are too strong or too weak.

I've played the ISC, Triaxians, and Canadiens. Maybe I'll branch out and try a different race, but going for my favorite ISC is a strong influence.

By John Burton Steele Sr. (Johnbsteele) on Thursday, April 21, 2016 - 11:21 am: Edit

I favor trying different races for the different campaigns.
A campaign option I would put out for discussion would be a more structured environment. I am talking about having fewer empires being different sizes with some of the larger ones having multiple fleets for their borders and having allies and enemies they have to destroy.
I am really not a fan of every empire being equal size. (The Klingons have a large fleet but to equalize that the Feds have a better economy and the Romulans continually harrass the Federation.)

By John Burton Steele Sr. (Johnbsteele) on Thursday, April 21, 2016 - 11:36 am: Edit

In short I want to know from the start who my enemies and allies are, what empires I have no interest in and whom I might want to terrorize.
To me this is a more Honorable fight.

By John Burton Steele Sr. (Johnbsteele) on Thursday, April 21, 2016 - 01:46 pm: Edit

Maybe if several people want the same empire that empire is larger.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Thursday, April 21, 2016 - 06:19 pm: Edit

And that could invoke civil wars.

By John Burton Steele Sr. (Johnbsteele) on Thursday, April 21, 2016 - 06:47 pm: Edit

Mike lists the available empires and the number of positions per empire. We then list our order of preference. This worked out in past games.

By John Burton Steele Sr. (Johnbsteele) on Thursday, April 21, 2016 - 10:00 pm: Edit

The Kzinti civil war, Lyran civil war, Romulan, or ... the ultimate... Federation civil war!
The United Empire of Earth Rules!