Archive through March 16, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: OLD X2 FOLDER: X2_Cloaking Devices: Archive through March 16, 2003
By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 11:25 pm: Edit

Jeff,

Do you want to give this ability tio the X1 FH?

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 11:36 pm: Edit

I dunno. Is a fire-while-cloaked ability too much?

I haven't flown Romulans in a long time. When it comes to the details of the cloaking device and balancing Romulan ships, I don't know what I'm talking about.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 11:40 pm: Edit

Quote:

Frankly these are all good points. I may abandon the idea of firing Under cloak. It wasn't mine originally. And I'm not firmly weded to it.

And I have no intention of redoing the Rom ships completely again.


Well if the Mirky cloak couldn't be fired under but it could be bought for a pretty cheap price then it might have some cool uses.


Quote:

How about this:
On a ship that can fire while cloaked, if that ship fires anything that would blind a special sensor, it flashcubes itself.


That might actually work, so long as it couldn't fire Phasers...you need to keep it away from bolt every thing and fire phasers because they'll just in effect be cloak-fire-recloak in two impulse period, which won't be that different from slimply having a super fast fade period.

I would insist that it be fire whilst mirky ( rather than cloaked ) because a it'll make life hell for the Kzintis if you don't...but Maybe Kzinti Vs Rom fights could just be ignored.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 01:41 pm: Edit

Firing while cloaked is a massive can of worms.

If they can fire while cloaked, why ever de-cloak?

Imagine the base-busting potential.

By Roger Dupuy (Rogerdupuy) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 01:51 pm: Edit

Not a wow x2 product:

1. 'improved' SSDs that just have more boxes.
2. weapons that just do more numerical damage.
3. weapons that just have better to hits.
4. ...your thoughts welcome.


Andros are cool! Coolness costs.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 02:01 pm: Edit

Yep all it took was someone attracting my attention away from the pretty sparkly. To make me realise just how potentially unbalancing firing under cloak is. The only thing that I could come up with as any kind of balancing. (Which is not fully integrated with Murky Cloaking)

Firing under Cloak

A unit can fire self guiding SW. But the Unit is automatically considered fully uncloaked from that point on in SOP. And suffers from the cloak restrictions until it is fully uncloaked.

IE: If you fire Plasma under cloak. You are automatically fully Uncloaked for Return fire. And you fade in at fastest rate. Plus you can not Recloak until 32IMP have passed from when you have fully Uncloaked. (Techno babble hand waving saying that the strain on the cloak system causes it to reset.)

Any Comments?

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Eagle) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 02:03 pm: Edit

The cost for Mirky cloak, in terms of reduced ship capabilities visavi other races, will FORCE romulan players to use this system.
I don't like that at all.
Myself I am a non-cloak Romulan, and I want to keep the option of that playing style.
(Note that my suggestion are not as radical, they merely make the device more flexible.)

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Eagle) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 02:08 pm: Edit

Kenneth, what would be the point then with firing under cloak be if it doesn't offer protection?
You just killed the idea, by mistake no doubt:)

By Roger Dupuy (Rogerdupuy) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 02:22 pm: Edit

Kenneth is suggesting that protection would only be for the approach, not the retreat?

Am I right?

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 02:23 pm: Edit

Nope no mistake by Intent.:) But as to the purpose of firing this way. You are protected from Incoming fire on your approach. It's only after you have to deal with it.

I didn't say it was a great idea. But the only thing I could come up with that would remotely balance Firing under cloak for GW ships.

By Roger Dupuy (Rogerdupuy) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 02:38 pm: Edit

Carl, have you seen my posts suggesting a break in the tactical style of the Romulans following the GW?

Two schools of thought:
Traditionalist house still employs, builds, improves cloaks on their ships.

Upstart house abandons cloak tech (save for covert ops with specialized ships) and thus develops other tect to compensate. A DF weapon developed out the mauler tech.

Module x2 A: Federation, Klingon and Upstart House (non-cloak using Romulans)

Module x2 B or C...Introduce the Traditionalist House ships with improved cloaks. This helps with playtesting, the first round of it won't have to deal with cloaks at all. Once a balance and understanding has been more or less established from the first round, the second round -with cloak- of playtest can begin.

Or...

All races have the tech to nullify Rom, Orion cloaks. So the Roms had to make up for it by developing a DF weapon to compensate. THen in a later module the Roms make cloak breakthroughs and reintroduce the cloak. THis cloak may not be so different than the original one save that the other races can't nullify it anymore.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Eagle) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 03:05 pm: Edit

Yes, but the Roms are not likely to abandon the cloak. The advantages of strategic movement while cloaked serves too well in the Romulan dream of ruling the galaxy.
Note that the cloak so far is of limited ability in tactical combat. THAT could improve however. But I don't think the device will be abandoned by the Roms.

The last idea of yours would be pointless because it would just use up additional pages in X2 for no gain, IMHO.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 06:07 pm: Edit

Quote:

Firing while cloaked is a massive can of worms.


Am I being understood properly, the only thing that is being proposed is Firing Whilst Mirky.


Quote:

If they can fire while cloaked, why ever de-cloak?


Well Gee that would be because of the Fact that you can fire your Phasers so if you want tio kick them in you need to fully uncloak, and against a Gorn or Kzinti opponent you'll need those phasers to shoot at the seekers because whilst Mirky the Seekers have a pretty good shot at cleaning your clock.


Quote:

Imagine the base-busting potential.


They sity in the Glory Zone ( say R10 ) and have the Mirk going for an effective range of R13.
Ph-4s drop from 6.5 points of damage each to 4.5, proxi Photons move from hitting 4/6 to 3/6 ( although if glory Zoning from R9, there would be no change ) and Plasma Torps fired back at you would still hit the Roms as though they were at R10.
And the Base can generate EW and the Roms can't.

It seems to me that the base busting ability of the Fire Whilst Mirky...whilst quite useful against a base...is nothing that a BPV solution can't be found for.


Quote:

Not a wow x2 product:

1. 'improved' SSDs that just have more boxes.
2. weapons that just do more numerical damage.
3. weapons that just have better to hits.
4. ...your thoughts welcome.


Andros are cool! Coolness costs.


If you have 2 and 3 mixed in accord with racial flavour, you have taken a small step towards cool.


Quote:

Firing under Cloak

A unit can fire self guiding SW. But the Unit is automatically considered fully uncloaked from that point on in SOP. And suffers from the cloak restrictions until it is fully uncloaked.

IE: If you fire Plasma under cloak. You are automatically fully Uncloaked for Return fire. And you fade in at fastest rate. Plus you can not Recloak until 32IMP have passed from when you have fully Uncloaked. (Techno babble hand waving saying that the strain on the cloak system causes it to reset.)

Any Comments?


I think forcing the vessel to uncloak is too stiff, but allowing the Cloak to be lit up like a Christmas tree ( so Gorns can bolt and Feds can fire Photons and everybody can fire phasers ( except the cloaker himself! ) will do nicely.


Quote:

The cost for Mirky cloak, in terms of reduced ship capabilities visavi other races, will FORCE romulan players to use this system.
I don't like that at all.
Myself I am a non-cloak Romulan, and I want to keep the option of that playing style.
(Note that my suggestion are not as radical, they merely make the device more flexible.)


So basically the Jump Cloak suits your style of play better.


We'll need to have both the Mirky Cloak and Jump Cloak if we are to have either.
The Jump Cloak is an Anti-Gorn (Anti-Kzinti) and the Mirky Cloak is an Anti-Federation Weapon and as such you need both or else you're going a racial imbalance against the Roms to primary enemys which break the BPV of the ships. Better to increase the BPV of the Rom ships again ( but not by much because you can not opperate both at the same time ) than to have one but not the other.


Quote:

Kenneth, what would be the point then with firing under cloak be if it doesn't offer protection?
You just killed the idea, by mistake no doubt


Orions will be able to launch drones ( as per the special sensor blinding benchmark ) kinda like the frax which will be cool for the Orions.

Play testion of; a flashcube fire whilst mirky, a non fire mirky and a non flashcube fire whilst mirky will give us the best idea of where to take things.


Quote:

Nope no mistake by Intent. But as to the purpose of firing this way. You are protected from Incoming fire on your approach. It's only after you have to deal with it.

I didn't say it was a great idea. But the only thing I could come up with that would remotely balance Firing under cloak for GW ships.


High BPV would be the other method of gaining balanbce with the GW ships.


Quote:

Yes, but the Roms are not likely to abandon the cloak. The advantages of strategic movement while cloaked serves too well in the Romulan dream of ruling the galaxy.
Note that the cloak so far is of limited ability in tactical combat. THAT could improve however. But I don't think the device will be abandoned by the Roms.

The last idea of yours would be pointless because it would just use up additional pages in X2 for no gain, IMHO.


And also be too far removed from what players are expecting.
TNG and ST:VI both had Cloaked Romulans so abandoning the cloak would leave a bad taste in the mouth particularly since Paramount hasn't asked us to scap the idea of a cloak.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 06:16 pm: Edit

Well Gee that would be because of the Fact that you can fire your Phasers so if you want tio kick them in you need to fully uncloak, and against a Gorn or Kzinti opponent you'll need those phasers to shoot at the seekers because whilst Mirky the Seekers have a pretty good shot at cleaning your clock.

should read:-

you can't fire your phasers

if you want to kick


They sity in the Glory Zone ( say R10 ) and

Should read:-

They sit in the

By Roger Dupuy (Rogerdupuy) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 06:33 pm: Edit

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Not a wow x2 product:

1. 'improved' SSDs that just have more boxes.
2. weapons that just do more numerical damage.
3. weapons that just have better to hits.
4. ...your thoughts welcome.


Andros are cool! Coolness costs.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If you have 2 and 3 mixed in accord with racial flavour, you have taken a small step towards cool.


One small step towards cool, one giant leap towards...

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 06:45 pm: Edit

If fire under cloak were to be implemented, I would use something like this; (that I wrote after seeing STIV)

A ship with 'fire under capable' cloak could use passive fire control to launch a seeking weapon with its own guidance system (plasma or atg drone) or a photon. Only a single weapon can be fired every other impulse. On the impulse of fire opponents can roll to lock onto the cloaked ship at sensor rating -2 plus range, speed and ew modifiers (instead of the standard -4/-10).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 09:38 pm: Edit

MJC,

Some people have been suggesting firing under full-cloak in addition ot your proposal. I consider that a bad idea.

Firing while murky isn't as bad but does allow you to launch plasmas at one range bracket while forcing the base to use the next-worse one.

Range 10 is too close for good base-busting. A good rom stays out at range-20 and shoots enveloping plasma.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 02:15 am: Edit

Yeah...full cloak with fire whilst cloaked is bad even with say a flashcube penalty because the Romulan number one opponent is forced to either bolt ( bad ) or launch plasma that will loose tacking after one impulse ( very bad )...and it's worse without the flashcube.

Fire whilst under Mirky Mode Cloak gives you plenty of time ( let's say you can not fire whilst mirky for 8 impulses after you became mirky nor uncloak-recloak for eight impulses after you fire ) to get your Gorn plasmas to run after the Roms.
Jump cloak works the other way, since the Rom spends (say with X2 cloaks the fade period is 3 impulses) no less than 18 impulses in that turn uncloaked (unless he finishes it off as a full cloak I guess but then why consider the Jump Cloak much of an advantage if you use a regular cloak that turn or uncloaks at the GW speed) and therefore able to be fired apon by seekers and launch it's own seekers (which have plasma ATG (Romulan's Revenge)) and thus there is no fantastic advantage to the Jump Cloak (except where seekers are already on the board) but nor is it so pityfull that it needs to be improved through the use of being able to fire whilst under the jump cloak.


Quote:

Range 10 is too close for good base-busting. A good rom stays out at range-20 and shoots enveloping plasma.


That's the thing about mirky fire.
It won't make a differnce to the Gorn base's return fire of plasma (unless it bolts) and at R20 it won't make a difference to the R13-30 Federation Proxy Photons so it'll just be peeling a few points off off the bases Phaser damage (at the cost of not being able to fire it's own phasers) so it's such a weak capasity that it should be able to be balance-able with BPV and shouldn't generate (common...(I wonder how mirkyiness opperates in a nebula)) situations where it becomes a game breaker.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 01:47 pm: Edit

Makes a difference to the P-4's.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Since the Roms paid BPV and Power to opperate in mirky mode, it should make a difference to the Ph-4s.


• If the Mirky Cloak can not be fired under...then the cloak cost should be something like 1/3 the regular cloak cost (power-wise).
It should possibly have a High energy Mirky setting (+5 to range) for the cost of 2/3 of the power.

• If the Mirky cloak can be fired under (ATG seekers only) then the energy cost should be higher like 2/3 of the regular cloak cost (and it should probably have no high energy mirky setting).

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 10:50 pm: Edit

Okay, another pitch at a fire-under cloak idea.

Firstly, you pay for cloak, and cloak operates by, arc.

IE., divide cloak cost up six ways. Note that you don't get a refund if an arc you fire out of gets voided.

Okay, now as to weapons firing:
1) You can only fire self-guiding weapons
2) When you fire out of an arc, that arc is voided. You still cannot fire anything but self-guiding weapons out of it.
3) Once a weapon is fired, the entire ship is treated as 'flashcubed' until the seeking weapon has travelled 5 hexes (reflects the time needed for the heat trail from the weapon to no longer lead straight to the firing ship)

Would that combination of restrictions work to balance this?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, March 16, 2003 - 02:11 am: Edit

Okay, now as to weapons firing:
1) You can only fire self-guiding weapons
It's a start...I like limiting only to Seeking weapons, though I have a feeling you could be able to use DF eapons without it being a game breaker ( double range with passive fire control and all that )...it's just a matter of BPV, but I wouldn't want a system that was too expensive for the Roms as that would force the players to use it which would make the game less fun.


2) When you fire out of an arc, that arc is voided. You still cannot fire anything but self-guiding weapons out of it.
I really don't like the idea of an arc based cloak...if I'm in 0822 and you're in 0625A do I get a partial cover modifer???...can't I see some of you're ships when I'm in 0823!?!



3) Once a weapon is fired, the entire ship is treated as 'flashcubed' until the seeking weapon has travelled 5 hexes (reflects the time needed for the heat trail from the weapon to no longer lead straight to the firing ship)
That's a begining...Does that mean until they are 5 hexes apart, until the plasma has travelled 5 hexes or until the plasma has traveled five hexes unless the launching ship moves into a different hex!?!


Would that combination of restrictions work to balance this?
I think it would be better to say that once you've stabalised your mirkiness that you can launch whilst mirky ( but it stops you from applying Jump Cloak or Cloak for a period of time ).
It'll avoid all the "But I hetted so the Gorn Plasma should be inert, right"...arguements.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, March 16, 2003 - 05:10 pm: Edit

Didn't we decide that an arc cloak was too powerful?

And I know I at least thought that firing under cloak, even if the ship flashcubed itself was too much.

Combining the two where only one arc is flashcubed, even for 5 impulses, is definitely too much.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, March 16, 2003 - 07:19 pm: Edit

An arc cloak would be pretty useless ( other than pay lower for the privelage of being cloaked ) if all the facings were voided by the fire.

And if less than all the facing are voided by the fire then the arc-cloak HET combo will be too powerful.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, March 16, 2003 - 08:07 pm: Edit

I don't WANT to make the cloak easier to afford. It makes the cloak too powerful.

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