The current ISC SR is not a bad ship for its role, and perhaps benefits from the "base hull" CL being quite large as Alpha Octant light cruisers go.

But I was wondering if there could be scope for the Concordium to build additional survey ship types. Perhaps as a "backstop" to pre-existing SR operations, when faced with particularly troubling monster, Orion, or Andromedan activity in the Distant Zone. Or, perhaps, to replenish losses of SRs to those same threats - particularly in the first wave of the Andro invasion. And later, perhaps to provide more muscle to RTN-hunting operations, a role for which the current SR would be largely unsuitable.


So, I had two separate ideas:

*a Heavy Survey Cruiser, based on the Star Cruiser hull - which could perhaps retain both of its plasma-S torpedoes, while swapping the PPD (and/or a pair of phaser-1 mounts elsewhere on the ship) out for a set of special sensors,

and

*a New Survey Cruiser, converted from the War Cruiser (or Heavy War Cruiser) hull - perhaps swapping the forward-mounted plasma-F launchers (and/or a pair of phaser-1 mounts elsewhere on the ship) for special sensors, while retaining the forward-mounted plasma-S launchers.


Whether either (or both) hull types could perhaps be liable to adopt survey carrier (or survey tender) configurations is something that might be worth considering - though given the stated reluctance to publish an SRV SSD based on the current survey cruiser, those may be less viable options here.


As with the ill-fated ISC SRX proposal elsewhere (which fell afoul of the same problems preventing other first generation Alpha Octant SRXs from existing historically), I would posit that the political pressure from the inquisitive Q'Naabians, combined with those exploration-minded members of the other four ISC member species, might encourage the Concordium to build ships of these classes.

Plus, in the wake of Operation Unity, such ships might be useful to send on long-range missions to the LMC, or perhaps beyond - though by the time the GSX NCC-1821 USS Sakharov returns to the Alpha Octant in Y219, I'd hope that the ISC might have some sort of second-generation "XSR" available to send to the LMC and Omega Octant by then.


So, would there be an opportunity for either, or both, of these additional ISC survey ship types to exist?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 04:55 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

Basic designs you are proposing would be rejected.

Survey ships are not simply a hull with a few special sensors.

Survey ships by and large include cargo to handle additional supplies and material while operating in areas where repair bases and resupply are far between.

They also tend to have enhanced lab facilities. Note that the Federation GSC has ten labs versus the eight of a CA, and the Klingon D7E has eight labs versus the four on a normal D7. The ISC survey ship has 10 labs versus the four on a normal CL and the eight on the CA.

You do not get a survey ship simply by replacing a few weapons with special sensors. That is like taking a standard Hydran Lancer, installing mine racks in its four fighter bays and declaring it a minesweeper. You can call it a minesweeper, but it is not, just as your current proposed designs are not "survey ships."

Most survey cruisers also got larger shuttlebays, the Inter-Stellar Concodium SR did not, which is why there is not a "survey carrier" version.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 05:23 pm: Edit

SPP,

I had been reluctant to explicitly list further internal changes (such as how many cargo or lab boxes to add, and which pre-existing systems to remove to make room for them) in my opening post, as I was unsure as to how best one might make use of the available space aboard the base hulls being proposed for the above conversions. But my assumption was that such further changes would still be required, so as to properly establish either design as a "true" survey ship.

I should have been more explicit with that assumption, and apologize for the oversight.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 05:32 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

None of us are perfect.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 05:54 pm: Edit

SPP,

Now that you mention it, the ISC does have form in terms of shuttle numbers on survey hull variants; the YSR in Module Y3 has the same number of shuttles as the "baseline" YCL in Module Y2.

Perhaps that might be a quirk carried over to a would-be HSR and/or NSR, in that each ship design would have to make do with the same number of shuttles as their respective "baseline" hull types?

(By which I don't mean to imply that other changes would not still need to be made.)

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 06:35 pm: Edit

Hmmmm, well, I think the question is - why is the larger hull needed, or what was the smaller hull 'missing' that needed the larger hull...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, June 30, 2016 - 07:50 pm: Edit

When the first ISC SRs were being built, the Distant Zone was a less dangerous place than it would become in later decades. The further "off-map" the ISC explore (to include inching ever closer to the nearest edge of the Void), the longer the Orions or Andromedans have to expand their respective operations, the more "line" ships get called out of the Distant Zone to support the Pacification, and the broader the potential array of monster encounters becomes, the less and less likely it would be that the current crop of survey cruisers can adequately handle all that needs to be handled "out there".

Plus, given the high degree of vulnerability in ISC space (not just in the Distant Zone, but in the "on-map" provinces also) during the early phase of the Andromedan invasion, the greater the likelihood becomes of more SRs being caught in the conflagration.

So, there may be cause for the ISC to build one or more heavier (and more heavily-armed) survey hulls to backstop the "peacetime" SR complement - and perhaps also a need to replace one or more of those SRs directly with a "wartime" hull type, in the wake of the Andro onslaught.

(Of course, the ISC never realized just what kind of dangers were lurking in the depths of the Void itself... at least not until the Sakharov's return to the Alpha Octant in Y219. But I still like the idea of an isolated ISC ship or few falling afoul of said dangers, even if the Concordium at large would remain unaware of these happenings until after they'd find out what to look for.)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Background for the ISC pretty much says that unlike the other empires, the ISC expanded geometrically from their core space (that is one of the reasons why the ISC makes a nice large hexagon). The ISC government pretty much tightly controlled its expansion (the ISC can be seen as somewhat less Laissez Faire than the Federation or even the Gorns, but not quite the more or less "Command" economy of the Klingons).

The upshot is that ISC survey was not generally into deep unexplored regions away from succor as was pretty much conducted by the other Empires. Thus the ISC did not perceive a need for a heavily armed or particularly large survey ship.

Note that even the Federation and Gorns started with "light survey cruisers." The Gorns continued to use such. If one accepts Gary's argument for the ISC, then it would also apply to the Gorns.

The real question right now is if the ISC SR is that badly outmatched versus other empires in the "Survey Captain's Game," or does it at least fall into the middle of the road for the type?

One thing I will flatly state is that I do not see a need to redesign the ISC survey ship to produce a "survey carrier," Not a road I want to go down, because once you start you will get to the Klingons needing a D7EV variant (for example).

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 04:59 pm: Edit

I think the Klingons would obviously have designed a C6E survey cruiser.

To go and explore new territory...
find new worlds...
and conquer them!

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 06:54 pm: Edit

SPP,


I don't have a copy of either Module R6 or Module R10. But I am led to believe that the former includes a Gorn heavy survey cruiser, and that the latter includes a Gorn medium survey cruiser.

If so, do the respective R-sections for these ships specify how many of either were built or converted, and what kind of roles they served in on behalf of the Confederation (beyond those which the CL-based SRs could handle)?


As for the ISC, it is the case that the Concordium had managed to maintain a more systematic approach towards outwards expansion, at least in those eras in which it could afford to do so.

Yet even on the Federation and Empire map, it is noted that the "final" ring of provinces were more hastily annexed and fortified [as shown in ISC War's (624.0) scenario] than they might have otherwise been, had the Concordium not uncovered a pressing need to secure what would soon become their borders with the Gorns and Romulans. This may or may not have a knock-on effect on the pace at which the Distant Zone was being explored. According to (625.542) in ISC War, the ISC have no "survey points" built up by the start of the Pacification, but can start accumulating them once the Pacification campaign gets underway.

[The Y168 OOB in (624.43) lists 4 SRs in the Survey Fleet, a number that increases to 8 in the Ninth Fleet on the Y186 OOB in (713.0).]

While the sense of urgency in the Distant Zone may seem to be deferred in its onset relative to, say, that in the Federation Survey Area or the Gorn Trusteeship Zone, there would still be a point at which this pressure would increase. Which would coincide with the gradual re-deployment of elements from the Seventh and Eighth Fleets (listed as being deployed to the "northeast" and "southeast" Distant Zone respectively in the Y186 ISC OOB) along one or more of the rapidly-forming cordons elsewhere in the Alpha Octant - and thus leaving the forces still in the Distant Zone by Y188 more ill-equipped to handle what was about to happen to them.

It remains to be seen exactly, what, if any, additional survey work (in F&E terms) can be carried out in the Distant Zone in the midst of the Andromedan invasion. Yet the relative weakness of the current crop of ISC SRs in direct combat (when compared to the likes of the Federation GSC or NSR, let alone the far more capable GSXs and GVX, which Star Fleet's Second Fleet could call upon in the Survey Area by that time) might drive the Concordium to re-consider what kind of survey options it had on the table.

Particularly if it were to turn out that one or more of the Ninth Fleet's SRs were to be destroyed by the Andromedans directly. Or if they were demonstrated to be sub-optimal when tasked with uncovering RTN nodes after Y195.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 07:26 pm: Edit

Gary;

The Gorn HSR was a single conversion committed to survey duty.

The MSR was an unbuilt variant.