Archive through March 09, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: Star Fleet Universe Training Command:
Getting women to play SFB:
Archive through March 09, 2003
SVC will the new Kzinti female rules be in Feline Empires or elsewhere? I Know My wife Cynthia will be happy to resume the center seat on a Kzinti BC. She has not been happy with the Lyrans, she likes drones too much(sees them as cat claws striking out).Don't mean to rush you just excited thats all. GPD will be played at my house for sure now. I look forward to integrating SFB and GPD into a more complete SFU experience.
Kzinti females are in the core book.
re: Kzinti - Hooray for our version!
re: Minis - I'm quite surprised that judges have problems letting people use them. I have difficulty believing that SFB players (who are generally regarded to be pretty bright) would be thrown by the difference between counters and miniatures.
I also am back into SFB for the minis and modeling aspect as much as the game itself.
Sean,
The one thing that I can see is that if people are used to playing with counters, then they can generally measure the distance between the 2 ships pretty accurately just by eyeing it. And the minis would through that off and require the person to constantly count the number of hexes.
Paul Franz
What Paul said. It would disrupt my timing to not inately know the true distance at any point and I would be more likely to turn an impulse too late.
Back last century when I ran an SFB tourny at EUROGENCON. I let the players have a secluded table with a standard map and had a MegaHex map and counters together with SSDS pinned and bluetaced to a notice board. Two runners(well strollers might be more accurate) then continually updated the "Big Screen". This worked very well. The players were left in peace and the crowd could not only see the action more easily but could discuss moves in hushed tones as they were far enough away from the main players that suggestions (even in the unlikely event of being useful) couldn't be overheard.
I think it would work even more effectively with minatures.
I don't think it would SFB out of business if some nitwit posted the Basic or Advanced set of SSD's on the web. People buy the basic and advanced sets for the rules and need the SSD's to play the game. what would really hurt is if someone put out the rules in a pdf file for everyone.
Could it be a reduced price product (less the cost of a paper SSD plus the cost of the burned CD) book by just selling rules and counters with a CD for the SSD's. Would it be cheaper to burn an SSD CD's for the Basic and Advanced sets than print on paper for the basic and advanced SSDs? That's fairly much all I have to say on the CD idea, mostly that having the SSD's for the main sets could be one less step towards getting the game rolling on any given day.
A gaming aid CD might be nice as well. As for some nitwit posting it on a warez site... that's part of life today. I think the vast majority of SFB inclined people I've met would pick up an authorized copy of it. (I'd be willing to bet on it) (okay, that's really all I have to say on the CD idea..really)
I really liked the tips on EY as a starter game, will be trying it out it later this month.
Totally agree about the flashiness factor. There is enough substance to SFB that maybe it could afford some flashiness? One thing that was nice and might be helpfull with new players would be to use the oversized counters on the large hex map for a certain coolness factor with beginners. I saw this done once, years ago... not sure if it was the FASA counters used with SFB rules, but it was neat because the counters had pictures of the ships they were on them instead of sillohuetes.
SVC: After typing this out, I had to address this to you.
At a tournament have one game that is voluteered for. The players use SSDs printed on asitate/gel sheets and place them on rented overhead projectors. That way the spectators could easily see whats going on. Of course you wouldn't put up the EA. But I think they would get it. Maybe for that game there would be an on duty moderator running the impulse proceedure on a third Over head projector.
Hmmm. Three screens left to right. Player A, moderator, player B. Then a poster with a EA sample form. Yaa!
You could practicly know how to play the game just from that. Oohh and another poster showing the super basic movement rules. Like Streight or reverse, turn then move, HET, and side slip. Real big type so you can read it from 6 to 8 feet away.
Weapons chart poster? Might be nice, but not as nessasary. If there is room, why not?
Douglass: Would it put ADB out of business; probably not. Would it hurt ADB's business; I think so. After all, the R-products are basically just SSDs.
Computer game companies have the mark-up to "afford" piracy. Paper game companies (in general) do not.
Paul & Loren: I really like the ideas that are being bantered about here to increase the visual and mass appeal of SFB.
Generally speaking, people who get Wowed by the visual presentation of a game (say, at a Con) are potential new customers.
I think it all depends on who you're trying to get to play. The game first attracted me many moons ago because it was Trek related. I'm assuming most everyone else is the same. If you start a game with unrecognizable, early years ships, people not familiar with the SFB universe won't get it. For beginners, I'd say use the basic Captains rules and no advanced or optional rules. Also, use minis, or at a minimum, Mega Hex. Minis are preferable, I think. For a simple "duel" style game, calculating the range won't be too hard.
I once had a guy ask me to make him colored SSD's. No joke, he wanted them with some color on them, AND the appropriate "outline" of the ship. I did 'em, and still do some like it for fun. He used them at a game for some newbies, and they liked them. Don't think we can expect a complete redesign of every single SSD ever printed, but it reinforces the point, to me, that a flashy first impression helps hook someone...the depth of the game and the rich universe should reel them in, and do the rest.
Hi Sean,
I wasn't talking about the R-products, or even the New Worlds stuff. Just the Basic and Advanced set SDD's.
Loren,
The overhead projection thing sounds cool!
Hey!
Can we do a demo on a screen like that at Origins? I'd be glad to help out with it! Of course I have no overhead projecter...but wait! How about on a monitor... hmm... my video camera and a monitor... maybe if several people volunteered we could have a server setup and show the game progressing on several screens.
Doug
Overhead projectors could be rented for little money. Besides, I don't think they are that expensive anyway. You know the ones. Like in school, back in the day.
Second hand shops, seen them I have.
What am I, Yoda?
I could see doing an electronic version of the center portion of the Basic SSD book: the Fed and Klingon CAs and EA forms.
That would be good. People could look at it and decide on getting more.
Ya mean the ones posted here:
http://www.starfleetgames.com/sfb/sfin/sfin.htm
and here:
http://www.starfleetgames.com/rangers/index.htm
Sean: See this link about Star Fleet Rangers... this has the EAF, DAC, Impulse Chart, Tourney Cruisers, Cadet Cruisers, Fed CA & FFG, Kling D6/7 & E4... all available for nice download...
Edit: Alex... don't do that... you steal my thunder... 
He who strikes first had better hope he gets some weapon hits
Cool links to ships but there seems to be something wrong with the impulse chart PDF which prints terribly for me on a 1200dpi laser.
Doug,
BTW, I am going to try to setup a mini-network using laptops (depending upon how many people can bring them and successful configuring will be) I am going to try to setup a SFB Online server for demoes and the like at Origins.
Paul Franz
Getting back to “Getting women to play SFB”…
I think initial presentation is probably everything. While I realize my wife is a hopeless case, before I was married I had girlfriends that might not have been, with the right approach. Guess I’ll never know now.
Remember, women are, first and foremost, Emotional. They (generally speaking) come pre-programmed to nurture, not fight, kill or destroy. Unfortunately, 98.7% of our game is fighting, killing and destroying… so many women fail to see the allure. Sometimes they can get into “overcoming the bad guy”, but everything we do has been largely reduced to moving around little chits of paper, while writing on a couple of other complicated pieces of paper (EAF & SSD respectively).
So… first is preparation. If you know the rules well enough, don’t even bother bringing your rule book. All it will do is intimidate the new player. Bring only the map and the counters you need. Again, 500+ carefully sorted (or not so carefully sorted) counters are intimidating.
Next is scenario selection. A two ship duel is tempting, but there’s no story behind it. Women want a plot in their movies (men will settle for gratuitous sex and violence), and I believe this will work to suck them into SFB as well. My suggestion is three ships; two frigates or other small ships, and a transport (aka small freighter). The freighter can move by automatic rules:
Undamaged: Speed X
Damaged by x internal points, Speed reduced to Y
Captain Jane wins if the freighter disengages by moving off the map.
Now the important part; the story. Captain Jane Doe, you’ve been sent to escort a small transport, loaded with orphans and homeless woman. Normally, the (Klingons, or whoever) wouldn’t take the slightest notice of this ship, but (Federation, or whoever) intelligence has discovered that one of the orphans possesses his/her dead father’s secret formula, and the vicious would do _anything_ to keep him/her from arriving at his destination and giving us the formula. You must keep him safe at all costs, or you and all your under-age children will surely be destroyed. Everyone’s safety and welfare depend on you chasing that ugly little spud back across his border, or destroying him utterly, at your option. Matter of fact, here he comes now, and it looks like he’s willing to settle on destroying the freighter and everyone on board…
Doing stuff to simplify things like energy allocation would be a good idea. Fill in Shields, Life support and Fire Control across the sheet. Stick with the basics of the heavy weapons, and avoid Overloads for the moment. As the Vicious Alien Threat, make sure you concentrate on keeping her busy, rather than on winning (a hard concept for most males). In other words, don’t do what seems obvious for “victory conditions” – chase down the freighter and alpha strike it for a quick win. You might take a smaller vessel, or just use phasers to skew the odds in her favor. Mid-turn speed changes are right out…
"Women want a plot in their movies (men will settle for gratuitous sex and violence)"
What do you mean 'settle'? Gratuitous sex and violence is the plot!
I think you're right on about plot Dave... I plan on working on scenarios with her... They are one of the most forgotten about areas of SFB by most of the men I've played against for any length of time who seem to have had a general preference towards building a killer fleet and duking it out, or just getting into straight up TC fights.
Paul, firewire card and support for a JVC 310 series camera? I can drag a desktop with me that has a NIC, running XP Pro on it... Or build a Linux server with the old pentium thing I'm using as a footrest... got it from a state sale, works fine... email me details if you want a Linux server brought out and I'll rebuild it next week.
Dave. Man that was beautiful. If I were grading you I'd give you an "A". Plot is a great way to get women, ah heck, anyone to get into this game. My friends and I used to do that all the time. When I first joined this board I told tale of a great campain that was entirly plot driven. Sort of SFB with simi-roll playing. Ended in a 72 hour slug fest at Star Fleet Headquarters. That's right, 72 hours streight. (Actualy a little more than that but...) Plot made it worth it. Oh, and the having the story to tell is fun too.
Again, right on Dave!
A useful chart for campaign is a scewnario chart. Basically it is a list of things an each suide is trying to do, together with terrain, neutral or additional units, etc. Works very well for just playing too. Just select your forces and roll. If you want or need to, split the charts up by sizes (singleship/squadron/fleet)or area (neutral zone/exploration space/core space).
What is the current state of SFB?