I always hated the Klink DW because it only had 2 disrs and this battle illustrates the point nicely. At a casual glance, it looks like an even matchup, but you as Klink are fighting uphill.

You're out-HWed (Him: 12 photons. You: 8 disruptors.) and outside range-3 you're out-phasered (and do you really want to get that close to a FED fleet?). He has enough G-racks that your drones won't get traction either, except for one SP saturation play. Presumably "no ECM" means no ECM drones, which is another advantage you lose.

The big weakness I can see for the Feds is they'll be slow and you'll be fast. Study up on your maneuver, because winning this will require a ton of sabre-dance finesse and SP timing.

Keep the option to go point-blank with him in the back of your mind (say you're at range-12 and he empties his photons at you), but don't put a toe into range-8 lightly. If you do, you will almost have to go to overrun to make it worthwhile.

Expect him to try to herd you into a corner and slaughter you. If you two get in OL range of each other on his terms, he WILL slaughter you barring fickle dice.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 02:16 pm: Edit

I think John undervalues the F5W a bit. Yes, the Klingons are outgunned in heavy weapons, but they have more phasers and more power. If you were playing with EW I would actually say the Klingons are advantaged in this battle even without the K-refits, due to photons being more EW-sensitive than disruptors coupled with the F5Ws having more power available for EW games.

But without EW, John is right that the Klingons will have to win this game by maneuver. Important question - you're not playing with EW but are you playing with EM? If so, I think the Klingons still have a good shot.

By Steven J. Hecker (Stevehecker) on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 04:56 pm: Edit

We aren't playing with EW becuase we have 4 new members to our group (up to 7 now) and thus we are trying to keep it "simple" and introduce rules slowly.

I agreed, heck I suggested it, before I looked at the SSD of the Fed DW and saw 3 Photons.

I might suggest a 2nd time with EW to "show" the difference to the New folks.

No EW includes EM. Only EW 'allowed' is that from Wild Weasels. Similar to Tournaments.

I thought I was going to have to brush up on my saber dance tactics and try to soften up his shields as a range 8 exchange won't really work. This confirms it. Just not sure I can pull it off well, especailly on a fixed map.

Maybe we'll start at WS 0 or 1.

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 03:18 am: Edit

One idea might be to do double strikes over a turn break. Go for a range 8 exchange at at the end of a turn.

If the Fed commits more than 50% of the photons in the exchange then he'll have fewer photons available for the second strike 8 impulses later, which should be at a closer range, while you'll still have all of your disruptors recharged.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 01:01 pm: Edit

Risky but at least the game would resolve quickly.

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 01:52 pm: Edit

Remember in an exchange at range 8 on average 6 Ol will hit and two F5 will probably be destroyed or disabled, which cuts the available number of disruptors in half. the Klingon can kill 1 DW and lose 2 F5W leaving 2 against 3 at that point. the question becoames can you kill 2 more on impulse 8(probably not) and can his remaining P1 kill or cripple another F5

By Steven J. Hecker (Stevehecker) on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 11:41 pm: Edit

I'm with Ed on the range 8 idea. 2 F5Ws have 4 DISR and 4 P1 while he'd still have 12 P1s.

I'm thinking I'll need to soften up his shields before a range 8 exchange takes place so I have a chance of taking down 2 DWs and/or not facing all 12 Photons.

Not sure how easy that's going to be as he can go 28 while holding his overloads. Which is also fast enough to skip around the speed 20 drones.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Thursday, September 29, 2011 - 12:34 am: Edit

The Fed DW is one of those evil little ships that somehow got past the "Fed Crappy Ship Design Committee" syndrome.

Woe is is the Klink player. Woe.

And it's a single fixed map!!! Who did the Fed player bribe?

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Thursday, September 29, 2011 - 09:32 am: Edit

Is it safe to assume you have the k-refit on the rear P2? fixed map is not good. One idea might be to hit 1 ship with Disr, weaken the shield and turn away and use the RX p1 to Mizia it. Then deal with the others the next turn as they try to close.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, September 29, 2011 - 11:18 am: Edit

Mike Strain's comment about "... those evil little ships that somehow got past the "Fed Crappy Ship Design Committee" syndrome." reminds me of something I've thought for a while now. The Feds are generally better at building small ships than the Klingons are.^* The Klingons are better at building capital ships.

^*I do think that on a floating map and using EW, an F5WK will usually beat a DW even though the Fed has more heavy weapons. But the Klink is considerably more expensive, especially when drone speeds are added in. The DW is a more cost effective design.

By Dean Reynolds (Grogrog) on Thursday, September 29, 2011 - 01:00 pm: Edit

Fair play to Steve for giving new player an advantage.
I agree with you again that you should re-play the scenario, but include EW, floating map etc - all you've not introduced in the first place to even the battle out.
That said I'd still play classic klingon tac this time, to illustrate what might/will happen the next.
I wouldn't give him range 8 unless you're in his side or back quater.
Close and turn and wait for him to turn. Now you have two options:
Turn in and cross his arcs (you already launched SP/drones/kitchen sink) and drop t-bombs, give him range 8 for 1 impulse maybe.. Turn out and behind the bombs or continue turning in behind him.
Or turn back out and slide across his side.
You have to be allowing yourself mid-turn speed changes. Use all four, paying close attention to turn mode.
Don't forget the unwritten rule is: Klingons always thrash Feds. Demonstrate this rule.

By Steven J. Hecker (Stevehecker) on Monday, October 10, 2011 - 12:38 am: Edit

For those who are interested, we played this afternoon. Only 4 of us, so we dropped a DW hull on both sides.

Set up changed a little. UIM for the Klingons and the Feds got 3 T-Bombs while the Klingons got zero. WS 3, no ECM, Float map instead of fixed map.

Hopefully, I remember this pretty well.

Turn one Klingons (Lee Hanna and myself) went 31 the whole turn. Power curve a tad crazy as we armed both disrupters and still had 2 1/2 points left for a HET.

Feds (Drew Dederer and Jeff Johnson (New)) went 20 then 27.

We started in the Tournament locations, so about 33 hexes apart. We had 6 drones 4 hexes in front of us, and launched 3 SPs with 4 drones each on Impulse 8. We fired at the CWC when we hit 15 (13 damage on #1) and turned back into our Drones. As the Fed shot phasers and ADDs at the 18 drones, we launched 6 rack drones. We also dropped our 2nd SP on Impulse 31.

++++

Turn 2, they started with 6 tractored drones, 5 drones at range 1, and went 27 / 20. We armed standards and phasers and went 31 again.

Feds fired phasers along with ADDs at the drones but still ended up with 4 drones from the 2nd SPs of the off their 5 shield when they dropped to 20, preventing them from turning into us.

So, we completed our turn and turned into them at about range 12 and out of their FA. They launched drones at the 4 drones, fired off-side phasers at the tractored drones, speed up to 28, and turned away from us, denying range 8. So on 26, we fired on the DWC's #5 and gave him 4 internals, no photons.

On impulse 32, we launched 6 rack drones.

++++

Turn 3 started with us at range 8 as the feds slipped a movement hex away since we had fired everything.

Impulse 2 they hetted. The DWC gave us his weak #1, so launched 2 drones and a shuttle. We unloaded on the DWC's front shield and gave him 24 internals. He fired at the FWL and only 1 photon hit, doing 1 internal after 3 batteries.

Impulse 3, we turned up and away from the Feds, so the 2 DWs each fired at a F5W. Hit one with 1 photon (no internals) and the other with 2 photons (15 internals).

We halted there as it was time to go home. Klingons are heading direction D going 30, while the Feds are heading B (DWs) and C (DWC) at 27.

So Klingons have 1 down shield on each ship, with a total of 16 internals. The Feds have 2 mint DWs, while the DWC has 2 down shields and 29 internals.

Note the 3 Klingons stayed in the same Hex the entire time. The Feds started in seperate hexes next to each other, but currently, the DWs are together and the DWC is 1 off from them.

We decided to continue next month.

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Monday, October 10, 2011 - 03:48 pm: Edit

the drones launched on turn 3 are a problem you launched 6 on impulse 32 turn 2, so you may have to pick those up because of the drone rack delay. Also the shuttle launched on turn 3, you have already used your 2 shuttles as SP, did you land 1 of them, because you only have 2 on the ship.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, October 10, 2011 - 05:52 pm: Edit

Note that the Feds have slightly below-average photon rolls.

By Steven J. Hecker (Stevehecker) on Monday, October 10, 2011 - 09:55 pm: Edit

One he realized we were on his weakend #1 sheild, the Fed DWC launched the drones & shuttle, not the Klingons.

He hit with 4 out 9 photons at range 8. Can't actually hit with 4.5 photons. Meanwhile, we only hit with 4 out of 6 Disrupters at range 8 with UIMs.

Our turn 1 rolls was also a Disrupter short.

Don't remember turn 2 rolls at range 9, but considering we did 25 points of damage, we had to roll decent.

I think one key factor was 3 ships were shot at by the Feds, not 2. And the floating map allowed the Klingons to not get pinned and could actually sabre dance. I rarely fly ships which can arm and move 31, and was suprised at the amount of space we covered.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, October 11, 2011 - 01:34 pm: Edit

5 photon hits are on the other side of 4.5. Be glad fate rounded down.

By Steven J. Hecker (Stevehecker) on Monday, November 21, 2011 - 12:16 am: Edit

Finished the Scenario.

Klingons gave the DWC about 10 more internals impulse 5 from rear phasers and launched drones. DWs never slowed down from 27, so didn't land. Should have launched them at the DWC who had slowed down to 14 and would have been taken out.

Ended the turn turned around and chasing the DWs, but they were 22 hexes away. DWC was about 8 away.

Turned 4 we finished off the DWC who still had 3 P1s and we couldn't turn up to go after the DWs without exposing down shields. I really regretted not launching turn 3 drones at him as we should be peppering the DWs this turn.

So we hit him with standards and P1s at range 4 and took him down to no power and weapons. DWs went 27 then 14 and turned around to face us. Turn ended at range 15 with our #6 facing their #6.

We debated quite a bit what to do with turn 5. Finish off the DWC and leave as we'd win on victory points. Shoot at range and turn off and try to sabar dance. Or Close with overloads. We opted for the latter in the hopes of catching the Feds without full overloads.

We went 19 then 26 at impulse 14. Had 5 total overloads. DWs went 14. We closed to range 9 and turned up, 1 hull at a time, so we weren't all in the same hex. The DWs didn't turn, so they were on our #1 and we had their #6. At range 4 (about impulse 15), they smashed the FWL with 5 out of 6 Photons, but several were standards. Still, took 61 internals, and was 2 excess damage away from exploding.

Return fire of 3 Disrupters and 6 P1 only did 5 internals as 2 rutpers missed. The mint FW5 held fire as it was range 5 and had slipped out of the DWs FA, thus wouldn't be shot at.

They turned away and sped up to 19 at impulse 23, but we still closed and caught 'em with all 3 of our ships at various impulses. Managed to get on the downed sheild of the DW and gave him a total of another 40 or so internals, wrecking him.

Remaining DW conceded as turn 5 would end with him in still in range 4 with no photons. He Wouldn't be in arc, but we still had HETs available.

Discussion afterwards concluded the key was the Phton Fire on turn 3. Should have concentrated on 2 ships instead of 3.

Next, looking at SL 254 in captain's log 34.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Monday, November 21, 2011 - 08:03 pm: Edit

Next, looking at SL 254 in captain's log 34.
[Klingon / Hydran]

Just remember - your RX phasers are for any Stingers he has, otherwise you're asking for it...

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, November 21, 2011 - 08:05 pm: Edit

I admit I expected better from the Feds. I guess heavy weapon advantage isn't everything.

By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Thursday, July 02, 2015 - 04:31 pm: Edit

I watched a PbP cadet game on another forum, Cadet D7 vs Cadet CA.

The Federation player parked himself near one side, then sat and spun himself with photons at the ready (he was alternating his photons so 2 were available each turn).

The Klingon gave up as he couldn't break through the brick without getting mauled in the process.

Is there any advice I can pass along to the Klingon player from you guys?

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Thursday, July 02, 2015 - 07:04 pm: Edit

The key is the Photon to hit, disrupters are generally better than photons for most of their range. Pick a range where your to-hit is better than his and hope he doesn't beat the odds.

Since he is basically sitting, Range 15 shots will probably work as his photons are only 16.7% to hit (meaning 2.7% for both to hit).

Also don't forget there are other weapons to use (drones and phasers)...

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Thursday, July 02, 2015 - 08:36 pm: Edit

Introduce the narrow salvo rule. Stay on a line running between two of the Fed's shields. Maneuver to switch between those shields. The Fed has 18 points available to do shield reinforcement. Figure out which shield isn't reinforced or get the Fed to split reinforcement and gradually wear through the shield.

If the Fed is arming and firing two standard photons every turn, overload the disruptors and close. The Klingon will do much more damage. Then trust that the drones will help in close while the Fed is hard pressed to divert phasers to deal with drones especially after losing some phasers to damage.

By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 11:42 am: Edit

Stewart - your plan fails to account for the Brick that the Fed has.

Richard - these are Cadet Rules, and therefore no Overloads.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 04:20 pm: Edit

Both ships have 6 shield facings.

Use them.

When approaching the fed stalled with his brick tactic, the Klingon has the initiative to pick and choose his facing shields during the approach (often, this tends to be a facing shield such as#6,#1 or #2).

Accept that you will take major damage, but since he is alternating photons, you get half of what you should be getting on any given turn.

Choose between running in to deliver an alpha strike, and either parking at a reasonable range or in the same/adjacent range so your opponent has to either move so he can fire his photons or forego them altogether. The other choice is to use sabre dance for fast slashingattacks alternatingfresh shield facings each time.

Eventually, you will have to back into battle, but as the klingon is using all four disrpters and the fed just two photons, the numbers of damage points should be on the klingon side.

Good luck andgood hunting!

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 07:30 pm: Edit

Hmmm, how big is that brick anyway?

Disrupters don't improve on damage until range-4 but the phasers do at range-8.