Playtest report. Me (Kzinti) vs. Neonpico (Paravian 3G). I think the Kzinti is advantaged here. I am not an especially brilliant Kzinti player, but felt like I was ahead almost the entire game. I had bottom (2530).

Turn 1. I plot 29/16/31/26 for 25 total moves. The goal of this is to go fast to occupy map, then drop out the SP and some drones and let them get going, and then speed up again to deal with QWTs. I load 4 standards and a WW. I think about arming an SS, but don't; this is dumb. I also forget to put reserve warp in my batteries, but it doesn't matter. He plots 15/20 for 17 total moves, 7 reinforcement on the #6, two SS, and five standards. I drop out the scatterpack on I4, slowing and turning left, then launching some rack drones; I end up with two stacks of drones a couple hexes apart. He launches 5 standard QWTs on impulse 20, which is range 19, then ends up turning left (C, then B) and running away from drones. I end up turning to B, get R15 to him and fire four standards, 3 hitting for 9, and he uses 3 battery for reinforcement (he used his other two battery to start WWs mid-turn). I realize I can slip out far enough to take the QWTs in the R15-21 bracket, but I slip too soon, and end up ending the turn 3 hexes away from them instead of 2, so I have to shoot phaser-1's at them. I fire 4p1, hit one for 7 and another for 8, knocking off both splash elements.

Turn 2. I plot 14/20 for 17 total moves, 4 to phasers (fully charged), 2 standards, 2 OLs, and a WW. He plots speed 15 all turn, 10 for five standard QWTs, 2 reinforcement on shield 3, 2 SS, 2 WW, and 5 to recharge battery. Impulse 2 I fire 3p3 at one of the QWTs, destroying it. I eat the rest for 3/12/3 on my #5 shield. He runs up into the top right corner, and I pursue. Because he's facing B, he's facing away from me, and even when he turns to C at the top of the map, he's in front of me, so he does not launch QWTs this turn. About halfway through the turn I realize that if he runs all the way into the top right corner he will be able to do a 4/14 weasel plot next turn, and also that he'll stay out of range 8 and I won't get to shoot my OLs. I think about accelerating with battery to get closer (he can't counter-accelerate and stay out of range because the map edge is in the way). I end up thinking about this all the way until it is too late to do it. I do shoot off my two standards, which both hit his #2 shield for six damage, he uses 5 battery to reinforce. We end the turn at range 10, him in 4001C, me in 3710A. Because of the obvious weasel plot I decide not to launch drones, but I really ought to launch some on impulse 32 anyway, at least two to fill up my control channels, because they will be too far away to get to the weasel while it is active and it's not like he's going to just be able to not reactivate AFC with my ship right there on top of the drones. But, I don't, because I am dumb. I am overall pretty happy though, because he didn't launch QWTs this turn, and I believe that unless your opponent cloaks, you should launch QWTs each turn. I discharge my two OLs.

Turn 3. I realize that he is facing C, and unless he stops and TACs, if I go fast I can get behind him before he will likely move and he will therefore have trouble getting me in arc. And anyway going fast is swell because I can get close and anchor him. I plot 28/14/8/4 for 14 moves (28 through impulse 8), 6 tractor (should be 7 but I suck at the Kzinti), 2 OLs and a standard, 1.5 to phasers (fully charged), hold the WW, start another one, and two transporters because I have a half a point of leftover power. He plots 4/14 for 12 moves (accelerating effective impulse 7; the soonest he can because the second wave of drones will not get to his weasel until impulse 6), 2 power to repair shield 2, holds his five QWTs, and his four shuttles. He also puts 8 reinforcement on his shield #2, and recharges his batteries. My fast speed plot sort-of works; he turns to D on impulse 7, which puts me at the edge of his FA arc and means his torps will be going the wrong way. If I hadn't slipped toward him on i32, I would have been able to get completely behind him and he would have to tac or HET to get in arc. I was going to run over him this turn anyway. Anyway, on i7 he launches his torps, and on i8 I slip right and slow down. I'm in 3803A and he's in 4002D. I'm a little worried here, but his torps all turn out to be standards; I guess he expected me to dance this turn, since I was in a position to outrun QWTs if I wanted. There would be a risk of him losing them to short range if he OL'd and then I turned and ran off. Anyway, on impulse 10, I turn to 3903B and eat the torps on my #1 (taking 5/25/5 and leaving my #1 at 5). Absent a HET, his move will put me off his #3 and him facing my #2; he HETs to 3903E centerlining me at R0. I'm sad that this is happening on the same shield I took the torps on, but happy the torps are not overloaded; I call it a wash. I tractor him and he doesn't fight it (he has no power available); I also launch four fast drones (three of which are the heavies). Some silliness ensues with drones because our pseudo-speeds end up at 6 and we both will move on I10. Because his TM is better, he'll be able to control what hex we move into and my drones might miss, so I launch them facing A and C. If I go straight and he slips, two drones will still be able to hit him, and if I go straight and so does he, we won't move and all the drones will hit without moving. Because I don't have a SS, I don't launch any shuttles, which is dumb, because he still has to shoot down any shuttle I would launch. Anyway, I fire my disruptors (using battery to upgrade the standard to an OL), 4P1, and 2P3 at him, and 2P3 to kill his shuttle. He fires 2P1 at me, and 1P1 at each drone. At R0, a heavy drone is killed by a P1 on 1-4, so this is a risk, but he rolls well and all four drones are destroyed. I take 11 from his 2P1 and six from disruptor feedback for 17, use my last 3 battery to reinforce, and take 9 damage (1p3, 2 warp, and six hull). He takes 65 from my disruptors and phasers, which does 35 in because for the third straight turn he has bricked the wrong shield. This kills a QWT, 4P1 (no ph-3 because he is saving them, I think), a bunch of power and his batteries. Impulse 11 he slips left and I go straight (the move doesn't matter much because all seeking weapons are destroyed); this satisfies both of our turn modes. I use my two allocated H&Rs against his QWTs and destroy both! He fires his two P3s against me and hits for 8, which kills a disruptor, 2p3, a battery, two warp, and two hull. Impulse 12 he launches his other suicide shuttle, which I eat because I am the world's worst Kzinti player. This does 18 in which kills a p3, another disruptor, 3 power, my batteries, and some fluff. Eventually, on impulse 16, I turn left and he moves straight, which leaves me on his #1 shield and so I fire my R+RR p3s, doing 8 more damage and destroying 2 shuttles, a p3, and four power. Over the rest of the turn, we don't go much of anywhere, and my plotted slowdowns kick in, and we end up with me in 3905A and him in 3905D. He announces his repair.

Turn 4, I was planning to retain the tractor, and maul him some more. He has only 2p1 and 3p3 remaining, plus two QWTs. His #6 is at half, his #1 is down, and his #2 is at 24. I don't think this is enough to kill me. My #1 is down, my #5 is at half, and I have some damage on my #2 and #6. I have 30 power compared to his 28, two working disruptors, all 4 P1s, all four drones, and 4p3s remaining. He had to go at this point, so we call the game. I am pretty sure I have it won, as I can hold him in the tractor and he can't do enough damage to hurt me. The need to shoot down drones will tie up his phasers, and 2 QWTs are just not that terrifying, especially since I can TAC on impulse 2 so even the splash won't cause internals.

After the game, I realized that he could not have launched those suicide shuttles, because he had just HET. The earliest he would have been able to launch the first one would be on impulse 15, and I would move on 16, which if it didn't make the SS miss entirely, would at least allow me to turn a fresh shield. This saved him 8 internals and cost me 18. Also, he took some shuttlebay damage, and he'd have to choose whether to lose WWs or SSs; the extra 8 points of damage might have destroyed the whole bay, or at least a third shuttle. I think if we had played this part correctly, it would have meant a very strong advantage for me going into turn 4.

Neither of us played perfectly. I botched an opportunity to launch SS's of my own, and ate one that I didn't need to (and I could have used those phasers to do even more damage to him, maybe wiping out the rest of his shuttles). We both rolled pretty well; I was 5/6 on disruptors that weren't auto-hit and 2/2 on H&R raids, and he killed all four of my R0 drones (three heavies) with a single phaser each. The key to the game, IMO, was that he didn't launch QWTs on turn 2, and the ones on turn 3 weren't overloaded. This allowed me to get to the Kzinti's favorite range of 0 without taking internals on the way in.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 07:02 am: Edit

Additional notes and corrections:

* Turn 3. On impulse 7 he launched QWTs. On impulse 8, after I slipped in, the QWTs HET E to face me. On impulse 9, the torps went straight (I didn't move) and on impulse 10, I went straight again and ran over them.

* Turn 3. The weirdness with the drones was caused by it currently being impulse 10, and both of us going to move on impulse 11.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 01:54 am: Edit

Playtest report. Me (Paravian) vs. Neonpico (Andromedan playtest: 3 battery, 2 TRH, 6 P2, 6 hull, 2 cargo, 28 power).

I am not sure this is really a typical, representative game, but this is how it happened. I don't have his EA, unfortunately, but I'll fill in the gaps best as I can (as an Andro, there are a lot of gaps).

Turn 1. I plot speed 15, 5 reinforcement on shield 6, 2 suicide shuttles, 3 standard QWTs, and 2 OLs. I have noticed that I do not tend to use a lot of speed changes with this ship. He plots speed 21, so his EA probably looks like 14 moves, 6 TRs, 2 HK, 5 for std panels, 1 to hold the DisDev with at least a little in batteries as he ends up going to reinforced panels. We approach. On impulse 20, I'm in 2322A and he's in 2112D, I start string launching the QWTs, slipping right to make room. I launch two standards on 20, two OLs on 24, and the last standard on 26. He keeps coming, I turn off to B. He eats all the QWTs on various panels, ending up with 3 degradation and 17 energy in his fronts, and 4 degradation and 21 energy in the rears. The damage to the rears forces him to go up to reinforced, but he doesn't take a leak as he went before we started. Impulse 30, when he eats the last QWTs, I'm in 2720B and he's in 2516C. On 31, he slips to 2517C. On 32, I'm in a rotten spot, as my turn and slip modes are not satisfied. If I don't HET he'll end up behind me on my #5, range 3, which is basically the worst possible place you can be against an Andromedan. It turns out seeking weapons don't influence movement if your opponent just barrels through them. So, I HET to 2719A. At least this way I can shoot back, and he'll be in my QWT firing arc for turn 2. He thinks about going straight to 2617C, but that makes it my choice of shield and gives me something that can charitably be described as a firing solution with the QWTs, so instead he slips to 2518C. We both fire everything, his 2 TRH and 4p2 vs. my 4p1 and 2p3. I do 26 damage, leaving his front panels at 8 degradation and 37 energy (rears are still 4+21).

It turns out that TRH's hurt. He does 38 damage with them plus 17 with phasers for a total of 55. I take 20 in, killing 2P3, a battery, an impulse, two warp, a transporter, and all my hull. Overall, I'm OK with it, as I didn't lose any P1s or QWTs. Still, the first battle pass against an Andromedan is always kind of depressing, because you get all this damage and he doesn't take any internals. At least it's only the FIRST battle pass now. After a brief consultation with the rules, and some confusion on my part as I get interrupted RIGHT in the middle of the calculation, he transfers 4+2 power to batteries and dissipates 10. He ends up with 8d+25e in front and 4d+15e in rear.

Turn 2, I have 36 power. I plot speed 15 again, 3 to phasers (total 6), 10 for five standard QWTs, hold both SS, and put only 2 into battery. I plot repair of a warp as AWR and my LS ph-3. I have 4 batteries, but as they have no padding I opt to put my "extra" power into the phasers instead. He plots speed 31, which means something like 21 to movement, 8 to panels, 2 for HK, 1 for DisDev, and probably four to phasers. This will burn 8 battery power, of which he just gained 6, so net drain of 2 over the turn break. Not too bad.

Because he's going 31 and I can't bolt, I don't launch QWTs. He flies past and behind me and on impulse 8, at range 8, he fires his 2 LS p2 at me and his 2 FH p2 and one RS p2 into space, making room for a panel dump. I take 2 on my #4. On impulse 9 I turn to 2816F (to remain in map center so my QWTs at least have a prayer of accomplishing something), and he moves to 2724C and reduces panels to standard levels. This doesn't release any power, but it does reduce his panel capacity and so I fire my two LS P1s at range 8, doing 7 damage, which does two internals, a warp and a bridge, and puts his rear panels at 5d+19e. On 2.13 he turns to B, and on 2.15 I turn back to A, in hopes of keeping my undamaged right side shields pointed at him. This also points my RS ph-1s at him. On 2.16, I fire my 2 RS p1s at him at range 13, scoring 2 internals through his rear panel, both hull. On 2.17, he switches to fronts off/rears reinforced, dumping 16 power to the rear and 11 to the batteries; his fronts are now 8d+0e and his rears are 5d+35e. He turns to 3424A. On 2.21 I'm in 2514A and he's in 3322A, with my turn mode satisfied. He realizes that if something is not done I will turn right and get another shot with my FH P1s through his down front panels, so he displaces to 2723A. This also means I will not be able to get my QWTs in arc this turn. I still decide to turn to the right, as otherwise I'll have a rotten time of it with my down #6 shield. My positioning is completely hornswaggled as I'm just sort of flying around aimlessly at this point. On 2.26, he drops panels to standard, which moves 16 from the rear to the front, now he has front 8d+16e and rear 5d+19e. He comes at me. On 30 I'm in 2913C and he turns to 2715B. I should launch an SS here, but I don't. I On 31 I'm in 2913C and he's in 2814B. I fire my 2 FH p1s scoring 11 to his fronts; the result is now 10d+25e. On 32, I slip to 2914C and he moves to 2914B. By slipping right, I'm able to launch an SS for an impulse 1 impact. If he were to slip left, he'd be directly behind me R1, with only 4 of his phasers facing but all of my P3s and 4P1s facing him; if he were to slip right, that would be incredibly bad as I'd then be behind him. Going straight means he has me centerlined but he is off my #3, so that's what he does. I finally launch an SS. I fire my remaining 2p3 (RS and RA+R) and he fires his last P2 at my SS. I do 7 to him, with his fronts having 10d+25e out of 36 total capacity. This should do 1 degradation and six internals, but because of a client bug we end up treating it as 1 degradation, 5 internals, and one energy released to the rears; the 5 internals are three hull, an APR, and an impulse. It turns out this is a bug in the client, as the . He rolls a 3, doing 6 to my SS and blowing it up. I forget to announce my repair. He only has four capacity in his batteries, so he transfers 3 from the fronts and 1 from the rears, and dissipates 6/4, leaving his panels at 11d+16e front and 5d+14e rear.

Turn 3 is very unusual. He can't displace, and nobody ever tries to anchor an Andromedan, so that's what I do. I still have 36 power. I plot 4 for housekeeping, 16 to tractor (enough for his three batteries plus one), 2+1 for tacs, 1 for the remaining SS, 5 to hold all my QWTs, 6 to phasers, and 2 to battery (which will assuredly get used for reinforcement). I finish the AWR repair. I should probably discharge at least one QWT during EA, but I don't want to bother with the rules regarding what happens if I do, so I hold all five. He maintains speed 31 and has reinforced panels during the turn, otherwise I don't know his full plot for this turn because we only get through 8 impulses. On impulse 1, I fire my RS ph-1s, the only ones in arc. He fires both TRH's and his five available ph-2s (the sixth is cycling after firing on 2.32). My fire does 12 to him, punching through his standard-level front panels (which can go to reinforced on impulse 2) and scoring three internals. The internals are APR, LS ph-2, and left warp. He does 40 with his TRs and 25 with his p2s, scoring 65 total. I have my 2 points of reinforcement, so I take 39 in. The damage includes all my shuttles, labs, and batteries, 2p3, 2p1 (RS), 2 QWTs, 18 warp, all my APR, and one impulse; I'm left with 3 QWTs, 4 ph-1s, and 15 power.

Impulse 2, he moves, slipping left to 2913B. I tac to B, putting him off my #6 shield, and tractor him. To my surprise, he doesn't fight it. The tractor reduces his pseudo-speed to 13. I launch my three remaining QWTs. He H&Rs my tractor beam and a LS p1, but both raids fail. He turns left and I tac left, so now I'm facing A directly south of him, and he's also facing A. My QWTs hit him on impulse 6 for 3 to the front and 18 to the rear, but he reinforces, so there are no internals. Panels now 14d+25e front and 9d+28e rear. I follow up with 2p1, scoring 9 damage, resulting in 2 degradation and 6 internals, which are two warp, both cargo, a RS P2, two warp, and crucially, a PA panel. The destroyed PA panel releases seven power to the fronts, so he now has 14d+32e front and 8d+22e in his 3-box rear bank. Two mizia strikes of 1 ph-1 for 7 points each do a total of 2 degradation (and 2 released to the front) and 12 internals, which destroy a TR, all three batteries, five warp, an impulse, a lab, and another PA panel, which releases 7 more power. His fronts are now 14d+39e with only 7 capacity left.

He has to stop here, and we save, but after looking it over, I'm going to go ahead and declare victory. I have 3 QWTs, 4 ph-1, and 15 power, with four good shields. He has one TR which just fired, 4 ph-2, no batteries, and 15 power. I'll probably allocate 4 to phasers, 3 for HK, 1 to TAC, 1 for tractor (I don't expect him to contest it, but if he does, I'm happy because I have much more power available), and six for QWTs. I might transfer one point from phasers and downfire as ph-3s for a second tac. His housekeeping costs are 10 (or perhaps 9 if he's crippled, which I think he isn't quite), whereas mine are only 3 (as I am pretty sure I am crippled here). He's also stuck in a tractor, which I will assuredly maintain, even though there's a good chance he'll displace out of it. So his best-case EA looks like 9 for HK, 2 for the DisDev (he's got to get out of tractor somehow), and that leaves him only four power for weapons and movement. That is just not going to get it done. I'll do about 20 damage from my 4p1 and at least 15 from QWTs, and he has only 15 PA boxes available, so he'll take 20 internals and then go up in smoke, if not immediately, then in EA of turn 5 when he can't power his panels.

Playtest comments. The Andro is generally advantaged against plasma-like ships, and I feel the Andro is probably advantaged a bit here, although less so because losing QWTs to displacement doesn't hurt all that much. He managed to outmaneuver me on turn 2 and stop me from getting a QWT shot. That was good play; but I think he was a little too aggressive. Andromedan damage does not increase very much inside range 3, and while it might not be necessary to go to exactly R3 and then displace away, too much overrunning is taking extra damage for little return. This version of the Andro doesn't dump power well, and he ended up taking a few internals while trying to dump. He still got it done, but he had to really work for it. Firepower-wise, it's a nice return to the old days when the Andro had enough firepower to be respectable. Any opponent of the 2-TRH Andro is going to just naturally have to expect to take some damage on the first pass.

On the Paravian side, my plan going in was not really what I ended up doing. I expect the Andro to hang out in the R8 bracket, sniping with TRs and dodging QWTs with his DisDev. Instead, he went for a banzai charge. My plan was to keep a constant QWT pressure; QWTs may not do much damage individually, but they can cause degradation in a big hurry if they hit, since a QWT will cause a point of degradation even out to range 26. I had expected to spread my QWTs out almost evenly over the turn, hoping to rack up degradation points. Another plan would be to just reinforce the first couple of turns, waiting for the Andro to run out of power around turn 3 or so. With only 28 power, the Andro has 7 (or 8) points spoken for with TRs and DisDevs, plus 7 for housekeeping; without power coming in via the PAs, he can only make speed 21 plus displacement, and less if he fires phasers. A couple of turns of that and he'll be slow enough to hit with torpedoes.

The Paravian just has a heck of a time coming up with enough power to actually fire more than a handful of OL-QWTs over the course of the game. Even with 40 power, it's almost as slow as the Fed.

Overall, I felt that both ships were respectable opponents. I especially like that the reduced battery capacity makes for a less flexible Andro. It's actually realistic to get a tractor on him (if only when the DisDev is recharging), and tractoring an Andro is just about unheard of.

By Andrew Granger (Captaincf) on Monday, May 18, 2015 - 04:29 pm: Edit

Is there anywhere to find the Carnivon and Paravian tournament SSDs. I would like to give them a try.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Monday, May 18, 2015 - 04:36 pm: Edit

The only place I know to see them is in SFBOL (they are in the third generation SSD format).

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, July 17, 2015 - 04:40 pm: Edit

Re: Vudar TC

The big issue with the Vudar TC is what to do with the IPG; if it can generate some sort of EW shift, it is very difficult to balance and breaks a lot of the tournament rules. As such, it is probably best to not allow it to use the IPG for EW in the tournament game. That being said, if it isn't going to be useable for EW, and as such, can only be used to do Ion Pulse damage to drones and shuttles, there isn't a need to only have one of them on the ship, which historically and regularly has 2 IPGs. The current Playtest Vudar TC only has 1 IPG, presumably because it was being experimented with EW rules at some point. Only having one IPG means that it generally gets blown up on the first minor handful of internals (see: ESGs), and as such, often will have zero effect on a game ever. If there are two of them, they will likely see use in most games, even if only against shuttles.

With one IPG, it is just too easy for a drone ship to get to R4 on the Vudar with some drones at R3 from the Vudar, shoot the Vudar, likely blow the single IPG off the ship (that the Vudar desperately needed to use to kill those incoming drones) on a few internals, and watch the Vudar get smashed to pieces by drones.

If the Vudar is not going to have EW potential from the IPG (which is the general consensus), add a second IPG box.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Friday, July 17, 2015 - 05:56 pm: Edit

That sounds reasonable to me. If the normal ship it is based on has 2 why not.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, July 18, 2015 - 12:19 am: Edit

Alternately make the IPG a 2 box system.

Or able to operate for 8 impulses after destruction like a plasma mount

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, July 18, 2015 - 09:33 am: Edit

No one is ever willing to invent new rules for systems just for the tournament, so that is probably not gonna fly.

There isn't really a particular reason that the Vudar couldn't just have 2xIPG systems (as the ship it is based on, and, well, most Vudar ships that aren't tiny have 2 of them). The playtest TC only has one of them likely 'cause there were thoughts of allowing it to use some sort of EW effect from the IPG in tournament play, and in that case, erring on the side of caution (and only having 1xIPG on the ship) was a reasonable play.

But if the IPG is only going to be useful for ion pulse damage, there is not really a good reason not to have 2, and it probably needs 2.

Compared to the Lyran (both ships are primarily DF ships with good drone defense and 40 power):

-4x IC is stronger than 4x disruptor, but not much, and only on a single turn, first exchange basis. They are also harder to fix. The Vudar does get 2xFX torps, however. Advantage: Vudar. Marginally. Maybe.

-8xP1 and 2x360 P3 is significantly better than 6xP1, LS/RS P3s, and a couple RA/L/R P2s. And the Lyran's P1s are in better arcs overall. Advantage: Lyran.

-2xESGs are vastly more effective in general than even 2xIPG, assuming the IPGs can only be used for pulse damage--ESGs can hurt ships, ESGs have a bigger range, ESGs can affect opponent movement. IPGs can do 4 points of damage to all drones or shuttles within 2 hexes once per turn, can't be combined on the same impulse to kill heavy drones or shuttles for 6 points (i.e. if there is a heavy drone that is about to hit you, you still need to shoot a phaser at it, and you can't double up to cripple the Stingers either). Advantage: Lyran. And this is even assuming the Vudar gets a second IPG.

The two ships are comparable on internals, but then the Lyran *also* has dual shuttle bays. And then the Vudar has the ion energy requirements for its system, which is mostly a non issue, but late in a game, is a minor hassle, which is something.

I think with only 1xIPG (and no EW function, which is the going assumption), the Vudar is just clearly and significantly worse than the Lyran, and the Lyran is hardly a top tier contender. I suspect that with 2xIPG, it is still likely not as good as the Lyran, but at least the IPGs will get to see use once and a while.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, July 18, 2015 - 01:46 pm: Edit

Sheap wrote:
>>My practice games indicate that the Vudar is a little weak. Not, like, Jindarian weak, but I think it is below the curve. It is a little like a Fed with more energy but less crunch power. The IPG is only useful against drone users. I agree that the biggest (fixable) problem is the phaser array, as it has 6P1, 2P2, 2P3, which at first glance seems decent, but the arcs are horrible.>>

And it is important to realize that the RA P2 arcs are *already* upgraded (to RA/R+RA/L) from the basic design :-)

Yeah, I dunno what a good phaser upgrade solution is, however--add 2 more LS/RS P3s maybe? That might be too much, and no one ever likes the "Just add a few more P3s!" fix.

>>I am actually not sure about the second IPG. The IPG already does nothing against direct-fire and plasma ships, so adding another one would not help (except padding the 3 row) but it would make the ship highly resistant to drones. Still, the Lyran has comparable drone resistance, so that is not itself necessarily unbalancing.>>

I like the adding of the second IPG as it is easy, doesn't really make the ship significantly better against drone ships on average, but does keep it from getting murdered by a stray "3" on 4 or 5 internals. And is "historically" accurate. Yeah, it doesn't help much against plasma/whatever, but even having the IPG survive to cripple a shuttle or two could be significant.

>>I would prefer to see a phaser upgrade, but I would not shun a second IPG. I believe the non-tournament version does have two.>>

It does. All the Vudar ships that aren't tiny have 2xIPG. It is important to realize that IPGs can't combine effects (i.e. a single IPG can do a maximum of 4 points of damage on a single impulse. Using two of them on 1 impulse doesn't allow you to do more than 4 points of damage), which makes a duplicate a bit less useful than one would expect (as you still need to shoot a heavy drone or possibly a shuttle that is about to hit you).

I'm also in no way opposed to a phaser upgrade, but I suspect that giving it a significant phaser upgrade (i.e. say, 2xP1s up in the front) would make it powerful and not leverage what makes the ship potentially interesting, and giving it a less significant phaser upgrade (Change arcs? Uh, maybe 2 more P3s?) would certainly be helpful, but not real interesting either.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Sunday, October 25, 2015 - 05:35 pm: Edit

Thoughts on the Jindarian LCT.

I think that increasing the R+RF and L+LF phasers as well as the front rail guns. To FA+R FA+L as they do with the war destroyer. The same for the rear firing ph1,s and rail guns This still leaves it with only 6ph1 and most direct fire tournament ships have 8ph1.

Adding two meteor 2 fighters in place of the prospecting shuttles. Could also be a way to increase the ship. As this was done with the heavy war destroyer. By itself I do not think the addition of the two fighters would be enough but it would be a big help either way.

What do others think?

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Monday, October 26, 2015 - 04:40 pm: Edit

Everybody's HDW has two fighters. I don't think the Jindarian will get that upgrade on the LCT, as prospecting shuttles, not fighters, are the Jindarian shuttle gadget.

Improving the arcs would only help, but the real problem with the Jindarian is that it is a light cruiser in a field of heavy cruisers (and not an especially powerful light cruiser at that).

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Monday, October 26, 2015 - 06:01 pm: Edit

Yes and the Jindarian heavy strike cruiser is a bit to strong. 9 ph1 the 4 med rail guns. Way to many internal boxes. 8 shuttles as well.

The asteroid ships are even worse to try and turn into a tournament cruiser.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, September 26, 2016 - 08:48 am: Edit

Played a game as a Kohligar TC against a Gorn (flown by Barry, who put together the Kohligar ship) at Council of 5 this last weekend. Got killed. But it was interesting.

The current Kohligar TC that Barry has is basically a CA with 40 power (30 warp, 6 impulse, 4 AWR), 8xMP1, 2xMP3, 2xACG, 4xAC. The arcs are mostly the traditional ones, but the ACs are 2xFA, 1xFA/L, 1xFA/R (i.e. all 4 of them are FA, at the least). He also took away the Micro Phaser "full damage to plasma" ability (which on the one hand, is probably for the best, game wise; on the other hand, doing full damage to plasma might have made me with the game...)

T1: I overload my ACs, which is expensive (1 to hold, plus 3 per torp), so I move 17 all turn and hold some weasels. Gorn goes 31/16. We close. Middle of the turn, he slows down and launches an enveloper. I close in. I do a bit of counting, use batteries to speed up to 31 for most of the second half of the turn so I can get to R6 (which is the maximum range of AC OLs, which is slightly problematic for this ship...), eat a full enveloper (that is always a mistake), took my shot, miss with all 4 ACs, we say "Huh. Gorn Wins. Let's pretend this is the second game!" (as we are just playing for fun), so I reroll, hit with 3 of 4, and with my 6 phasers, do 21 internals after battery reinforcement, hitting a few phasers and 3 power. I also fired an ACG, which does 12 damage spread around his ship, scuffing the rest of his shields. He launches an S and an F at me, I turn off and run away the rest of the turn, he follows me.

T2: I recharge my phasers and batteries and move, like, 31/17. He moves, like, 20 all turn. I run out his plasmas. His F evaporates. His S catches me for a couple points of damage at 24 moves after a P3. It is real. I come around to chase him. I'm pretty sure I eat an F torp as I chase him, as well as some phasers.

T3: I arm a single AC as a standard and move fast. He again moves, like, 20 all turn. I close in. I eat a fast load F torp. I eat another fast load F torp. I take some internals, but nothing horrible. My shields are rapidly running out. He launches a couple shuttles, which I kill with tractor dragging. He fires phasers at me, doing more internals. I get to R1 off his #4 and shoot 4 or 5 MP1s and my standard AC, doing another dozen internals. We are both pretty damaged, but I have almost no shields left. I can't tractor him, as I used both tractors already; I'm faster than him so I over shoot him (I probably should have decelled so I ended behind him). We end the turn with me 3 hexes to his right.

T4: We both stop and TAC. I have phasers and a single OL AC. He has an F torp and phasers. Nothing happens for a while. He speeds up to 10 at some point and closes in. He gets to R1 off my #3 (which is up, but weak). He launches an F torp, which I weasel and hit him in the face with the collateral, as my shuttle moved the next impulse. He is compelled to come into range 0. I blast down his #1 with an OL AC and 3 or 4 MP1s, doing another handful of internals. He does another dozen to me through my #3. We are both listing and taking on vacuum, but the Gorn still has 3 shields up, where I have, maybe, a dozen boxes left on my ship. I'm also down to, like, 1 torp and 4 total phasers. He flies over me, and we end at R1, him on another down shield.

T5: We don't actually allocate for T5. He can shoot 3 phasers in my ship on impulse 1, and I can't really get through his facing shield, so we call it here. Gorn wins!

So the Kohligar is interesting. Kind of like a fed, but with better drone defense--the ACGs do damage to everything in the hex, so kill drones well. In this game, they didn't do much--did 12 damage to the Gorn's shields; killed a shuttle once. The ACs are expensive to arm (6 to OL in a single turn). The maximum range of 6 for an OL is rough. Possibly a viable ship, though.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, September 26, 2016 - 11:27 am: Edit

For the sake of onlookers, the Kohligar's weapons:

-Antimatter Canons: Arm for 3 power in one turn. Overload for 6 power in one turn. Can be held for 1 or 2 power. Do 6 damage regular, 12 damage OL. They hit on 1-5 out to R3; 1-4 out to R6; 1-3 out to R9 (OLs can't fire past R9). The big trick is that they have a 32 impulse cool period (so if you fire on impulse 20 on T1, you can't fire again till impulse 21 of T2). They have another firing mode that doesn't have the long cooling period and takes less power, but interacts with shields weirdly (they count shield boxes and they subtract from the warhead, but they don't actually damage shields, and can only do internals. It is weird).

-Antimatter Cloud Generator: Holds between 1-6 power. Can fire at a hex. If it hits the hex, it does 2 damage per point of power used to everything in the hex. If something in the hex has shield facings, the owner can spread the damage to any shield facings they want (so the ACG is pretty much never gonna do internals to a ship). Also has the 32 impulse cool period. Great for killing drones. If it misses the hex, it might hit another hex. Accurate inside, like, 6 hexes. Not so much past that.

-Microphasers: Work like P1s and P3s, but do fixed damage and roll to hit. At R0, the MP1 hits on a 1-7 and do 7 damage; R1 is 1-6 for 6 damage; R2 is 1-6 for 5; etc. Officially, they do full damage to plasmas (in Omega, there are not many plasma torps; the race that uses them most fires a lot of medium sized ones every turn, so the MP doing full damage to plasma is not a big deal; against Alpha races with BP, it is very problematic).

By Tim Longacre (Timl) on Thursday, September 29, 2016 - 01:07 am: Edit

Peter, did you consider using a 2-turn arming cycle for the ACs? That is, arm as a standard on turn 1 and hold on turn 2 to see if an overload is necessary or viable and upgrade to that during EA?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, September 29, 2016 - 08:48 am: Edit

Oh, sure; in this game it didn't really matter--I was moving fast all the time, and didn't really have the power to even arm them. T1, I started with standards (as per, well, standard) and overloaded them in EA, and then shot them on T1. T2, I didn't arm any of them, as I had to reload phasers and batteries and also move fast. T3, I had enough spare power to arm one of them as a standard. T4, I armed one as an OL. I could have armed two of them as OL for firig that turn, but didn't think it was ever going to be in arc (the FAs had no shields to fire out of, so I just armed the FA/R AC).

In other games, that could be certainly a useful tactic. But in this one, not as much.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, September 30, 2016 - 01:06 am: Edit

During the course of the most recent Talkshoe discussion, the after-action report being given for this year's Council of Five Nations diverged into talk on the aforementioned Koligahr TC.

One of the points which came to mind for me is that, rather than trying to drip-feed playtest Omega TCs into the pre-existing mix of Alpha Octant TCs, it might be more viable in the long run to take a more focused approach towards Omega in its own right. As in, to take a more carefully-chosen sub-set of Omega empires to start off with, try to get them working well against each other, and slowly building out from there.


As a point of comparison, there are five playtest empires currently supported by the Federation Commander Omega Playtest Rulebook: Mæsron, Trobrin, Probr, Iridani, and FRA. (Well, five-and-a-half, if you count the "bonus" Vulpa blockade runner in the most recent incarnation of the OPRB.)

When picking these factions, I was minded of the approach taken in Federation Commander when Klingon Border was first published. Rather than trying to tackle a full host of Alpha Octant empires and weapon systems at once, or sticking slavishly to the SFB R-section order, that first FC product focused on the UFP's "western" flank; with the Federation, Klingons, and Kzintis prominently featured, and a sampling of Tholian and Orion ships offered alongside them. Later on, Romulan Border added the Romulans, the Gorns, and more "war" classes for the Feds themselves; while the Tholians and Orions would later headline their own respective expansion modules. (Tholian Attack also featured the Neo-Tholians and Seltorians.)

My goal with the OPRB was to do something similar. The Mæsrons are the "central" Omega faction (of which the Vulpa insurgents are, for now, treated as a "sub-faction" of sorts); the Trobrin and Probr are the two "western" Superpowers; the FRA are a key presence at the intersection f these three larger empires (and act as a convenient stepping stone from the Alpha Octant); while the Iridani can show up anywhere and act as a "wild card". And of course, my intent was for people to consider seeing how these ships hold up against the Andromedan Ship Cards in FC: War and Peace.

In the long run, my hope would be to one day see those five(ish) factions formally established in FC. Only then would I wish to consider adding more Omega empires (such as the "eastern" Superpowers, the Koligahr and Vari) to this project.


To go back to Omega TCs, I wonder if a similar approach might be worth considering.

As in, to start with the Mæsrons, two (or perhaps all four) of the Superpowers (Koligahr, Trobrin, Vari, and/or Probr), the FRA, and a "mercenary" faction (such as the Iridani, or perhaps the Bolosco or Zosmans), and then add an Andromedan TC to the set. That would provide 6 (or 8) playtest TCs which would allow for a solid baseline to be established - no "exotic" factions, no bio-ships, no overly large or small "CAs", etc. - while drawing from a collection of Omega empires which, historically, interacted with one another to perhaps the greatest extent.

Indeed, a Federal Republic of Aurora TC could both provide the closest thing to a "control variable", in that it would retain the most Alpha Octant technologies; and provide a distinct challenge relative to the Fed TC, since it would likely have light photons (and possibly SRCs and/or TMs, if it were based on the FRA BC).

So far as the "mercenary" factions go, the Iridani would be the most straightforward candidate rules-wise; perhaps if a pre-assigned set of Quest modules were installed into whichever "base hull" was chosen for them. By comparison, the Bolosco might be a lot to chew over, since they have a number of unique technologies to account for, even before deciding what (if any) pod selection(s) to go with. The Zosmans might offer some interesting weapon and system options (which I would limit to those they can salvage from whichever other playtest Omega factions were currently available), though I don't know if the proposed Stealth field rules would suit a tournament environment.


Overall, I'm not sure if trying to throw certain Omega TCs in the deep end against the full range of sanctioned Alpha Octant TCs would be the best way forward for the setting. But at the same time, trying to do too many Omega TCs at once, or rather picking which ones to playtest without care for their historical context, may not work too well either. So, I wonder if there might be an alternate means of tackling the issue... if, indeed, it ought to be tackled.

For anyone so interested, there is a set of playtest Zosman rules and SSDs (CA, CL, DD, and FF) in Captain's Log #50.

Also, there is a command cruiser apiece for the Mæsrons and Probr in Captain's Log #51; though I don't know if either would help in deciding what "base hull" to work off of when creating, or modifying, playtest TCs for those empires.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, September 30, 2016 - 08:09 am: Edit

Gary wrote:
>>One of the points which came to mind for me is that, rather than trying to drip-feed playtest Omega TCs into the pre-existing mix of Alpha Octant TCs, it might be more viable in the long run to take a more focused approach towards Omega in its own right.>>

We did that. Like 5+ years ago. We had multiple Omega TC only tournaments. There are a handful of solid, almost balanced Omega TCs already in existence.

>>To go back to Omega TCs, I wonder if a similar approach might be worth considering.>>

-The Maesron is almost a solid, balanced ship. Heck, it was even used in actual tournament competition at Council of 5 and in World League a year or two.

-The Alunda is vary solid, and probably almost balanced with the last tweak it got (drop DC down to 4 and take out 2 power).

-The Kohligar is almost reasonable. The big issue is what to do with the phasers.

-The Vari exists and is weak, as Vari are weak.

-The Probr isn't at all bad.

-The Hiver ship is hard to balance, as small and fighters. I think the most recent version is possibly workable.

-The Trobrin is ok. Currently it is a CW hull that is erring on the side of weaker than not. Which is probably for the best.

>>Overall, I'm not sure if trying to throw certain Omega TCs in the deep end against the full range of sanctioned Alpha Octant TCs would be the best way forward for the setting. >>

I agree with this point. But I'm also in the minority of this particular argument. Everyone else involved felt it was important for the Omega ships to be balanced against the Alpha ships too. I don't think that is particularly possible. But, well, other folks think it is.

>>Also, there is a command cruiser apiece for the Mæsrons and Probr in Captain's Log #51; though I don't know if either would help in deciding what "base hull" to work off of when creating, or modifying, playtest TCs for those empires.>>

Playtest TCs exist for all the races mentioned above, as well as a few more (Drex, but it is totally broken; a couple others), and have been tried, tested, tweaked, and adjusted. We've been doing this for a long time already. As noted, some of them are pretty solid. Some of them are under the power curve. Some of them are a little too strong. But they all worked to the point that we had a couple Omega TC tournaments already. But not for a while now.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Sunday, October 02, 2016 - 05:21 am: Edit

As for the Omega TC's already out there.

1. Kolighar with phasers that damage plasma 1/2 like regular phasers is probably very close to balanced.

2. Maesron, it's going to need some work. For the Maesron, the Tachyon Cannons/Beams seem to be OK. The wide angle phasers just plain suck... I don't know how to make them workable outside of adjusting the firing tables slightly. The Tachyon missiles are OK except against drone armed opponents, then they just don't work, too vulnerable.

3. The Alunda should be close to balanced.

4. The Vari might not be too bad, needs a little more playtest.

5. The Probr have serious issues and are very weak.

6. The Trobrin might be OK, but I'll have to think about it.

7. Drex might be not too bad.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, October 02, 2016 - 10:10 am: Edit

1) Kolighar: Yeah, it was ok. Even against BP. In retrospect in our game, there were a few things I could have done that would have put me in a better situation, even given the game as it was. Like, with some practice, it might be a solid ship.

2) Maesron: The ship did pretty well at Council a few years back, did ok in World League (like 50-50). It isn't bad. Like, again, it always comes back to having WP1s, which are fine against everything but drones, and TMs, which are fine against everything but drones. It is as if Omega was completely designed with drones not in the equation, and when you mix them with drones, they run into problems :-)

3) Alunda: Ship is sound. I think the last one was 10xBB, 4xPW, 36 total power, 4 damage control (so can fix 8 boxes). It was totally solid vs other Omega ships. Has trouble with, well, drones. And the PCG is just useless in tournament play. Perhaps if it held for 0, it would see play once and a while.

4) Vari: My memory if the current Vari is that it is crazily gunned up (like 6xPB and a ton of phasers). Might be ok.

5) Probr: I thought the one that existed in the last tournament wasn't that bad--it had a ton of guns and phasers all over the place, to the point of slightly ridiculous. I think I only beat it in the final with the Alunda 'cause the Alunda was too good at that point :-)

6) The last Trobrin I remember is the CW size one. It was ok?

7) Drex: I don't remember what the end result with the -1 to hit was. With the -1 to hit, that thing was nuts. And the enveloping HCHs are also nuts.

8) There was a Chlorophon ship which was ok in theory, but that ship on a closed map is rough regardless.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Sunday, October 02, 2016 - 10:01 pm: Edit

Peter,

The main reason the Maesron did OK at council a few years back was that nobody had counter tactics to it.

Tachyon Guns have an interesting dynamic. The hold cost is brutal, half the power in it. As opposed to photons which hold for one quarter of the power in it.

But, you can arm TG with one point of power on either or both first or second arming turns. That gives it a huge flexibility.

With six total power in it, the TG does 10 damage at up to range five and a hit number of 1-5.

If you arm it 5/1, or five turn one and one turn two, then you can combine high speed with more hitting power than an overloaded disruptor.

On the other hand, you can leave it empty and than near the end of the turn, decide whether or not to start arming it with a single point of battery power.

The TG is weak for a two turn arming weapon, unless you get to extremely short range, and not very power efficient. Holding costs are insane.... But, it's very accurate and has really good arming flexibility.

Once people understand the Achilles Tendon weakness of the TG, the Maesron tends to lose consistently.

Having said that, to make it perform as an all around decent tournament ship there are some things that probably need to be addressed.

1. The TG have arcs of 1xLF+L, 2xFA, 1xRF+R... The left and right TG need to be able to fire into the entire FA arc. I'm thinking of changing that to 1xFA+L, 2xFA, 1xFA+R

2. I gave it 8 PW1 and 4 PW3, the maximum allowed for a tournament ship. However, those phasers suck.

I did an analysis and at ranges zero through five, PW1 averages about 1/3 of a damage point less than a standard Phaser 1.

PW3 at the critical ranges of one and two also do significantly less damage than standard Phaser 3.

Also, PW-3 kill Type I drones 50/50 instead of 2/3 like standard P3. That is very significant.

3. The Tachyon Missiles are actually very nice, not too powerful and not too weak, except they are highly vulnerable to drones. They need some form of drone defense.

The idea for a Tachyon Missile is that you don't have very many of them. You can only launch one per turn, but they are tougher and do more damage than a standard drone. However, one drone can take one out.

Since, the Omega Master Rule Book describes them as the ultimate modular drones, it would be nice if there were more module types available for them. Heck, there are way more module types options for standard drones than for Tachyon Missiles.

What I'm proposing is a point defense module for tachyon missiles. It would have a number of single shot PW-3, the exact number is up for debate, but I'm thinking 2, 3, or 4. Those PW-3 would only be usable against size class 7 and maybe size class 6 objects.

Obviously, a TM point defense module would use up space, I'm thinking two space points, so if it's used, remove one space point of warhead and one space point of armor.

I'm also going to say that since, TM are myopic for the first four impulses after launch, that the point defense module only comes on line four impulses after launch.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Sunday, October 02, 2016 - 10:27 pm: Edit

Alunda, Yes add a capacitor for the PCG.

I think the Vari is probably close to balanced.

The Probr even with

1) Five HEAT torpedoes
2) Four PQ-1
3) Four PQ-2
4) Four PQ-3

Is way under powered. Remember that the HEAT is armed 2/2/2 and does a maximum damage of 16.

Basically, the HEAT is a Plasma G light.

That gives the Probr a maximum plasma damage output of 80.

By comparison, all other BP ships have plasma damage output of 100 except the Rom KE which has plasma damage output of 90.

The Probr pays a total of 30 energy over two or three turns for that 80 damage.

The Gorn by comparison pays a total of 26 energy for it's 100 damage.

The Probr pays 5 to hold everything while the Gorn pays 4 to hold all it's plasma.

The Gorn has EPT, PPT, and bolt options.

The Probr has a faster / longer range torp option, but that reduces warhead strength significantly. It also increases arming and holding cost. The faster torp also requires use of the Target Accentuator, which is difficult to use, and can miss as well as requires even more energy.

As for the Probr phasers, they are Quantum phasers.

Quantum Phasers do more damage than regular phasers at very long ranges, but at anything range 8 and less they are significantly less powerful. About the only think they have going for them is they can ignore a wild weasel since they have four built in ECCM.

At ranges three and under, standard alpha Phaser IIs seriously outperform quantum phasers!!! They are that feeble.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Sunday, October 02, 2016 - 10:44 pm: Edit

As for the Trobrin, I'm thinking it's just too weak. it is strong on the first turn, but then it just runs for the rest of the game until the alpha ship brings it down.

I'm thinking of re-working it based on a CA hull.

Maybe two Implosion Bolts LS and RS, two Medium Implosion Torps LS and RS, and one Light Implosion Torp FP.

I'll also bring it back to 6xPR-1 and 2xPR-3 which is the standard for the CA.

By Barry Kirk (Barrykirk) on Sunday, October 02, 2016 - 11:09 pm: Edit

As for the Drex,

I think that while it looks insane.

Four Heavy Hyper Cannons
Six Light Hyper Cannons
Four PW-1 ( Wide Angle Phaser )
Two PP-1 ( Particle Phaser )
Four PW-3

And it's got that supercomputer with -1 to die rolls.

It's not that bad. Remember that the weapons all have different firing arcs, and those arcs are extremely limited.

It really doesn't have enough power for all it's weapons.

Your correct that the Enveloping shells are insane. That is why, in the current tournament cruiser, it only has four rounds of enveloping ammo. That's only enough for two shots of heavy or four shots of light.