Yet another idea for changing/improving an existing weapon, but this time for my second favorite fleet, the Lyrans. Yes, it'll never be adopted, but we don't have a "Give the Lyrans What They Want" thread. J

Expanding Wave Generator (EWG)

The EGW is an idea for an alternate weapon/defensive system to the ESG, allowing Lyrans to not have to worry about bumping into each other in fleet battles.

1. Charging the EGW capacitor

The EGW capacitor can hold 6 points of power. It must be charged with warp power. Each EGW has its own capacitor that is destroyed when the EGW is destroyed.

2. Defensive mode

The EGW maybe fired in defensive mode as an anti-drone/fighter weapon.

The EGW generates an expanding wave of warp energy that can burn out the small warp drives used by drones and shuttles. The wave starts at range 0 and sweeps out to range 3 in all directions. The wave may be fired with anywhere from 1 to 6 points of power from the capacitor.

The wave loses 1 point of power at range 2 and 2 additional points of power at range 3. Each SC7 or SC6 unit hit by the wave reduces the wave power by one. Power loss due to range is calculated before power loss due to hitting units. Any SC7 warp capable unit hit by the wave is destroyed. Any SC6 warp capable unit hit by the wave takes 1d6 points of damage. Damage priority is from fastest unit to slowest (the faster units are assumed to have more finely tuned warp drives that are more vulnerable to the warp disruption effect of the EGW). This is based on maximum possible speed, not the units actual speed. If there is not enough power in the wave to hit all units of a given speed, hits are distributed randomly. No unit can be hit more than once by a given EGW burst.

3. Offensive mode

The EGW may be fired in offensive mode as an anti-ship weapon. All EGW on the ship have the same narrow arc of fire and can fire out to a range of 3.

..._
._/*\_
/*\_/*\
\_/*\_/
..\_/
../*\
..\_/
../L\
..\_/

The EGW may be fired in offensive mode with 1 to 6 points of power from the capacitor. Damage is equal to 3 times the power in the wave at the target's range. The wave hits with full power at range 0-1, one less power at range 2, and three less power at range 3.

Range	0-1	1	3
To-Hit	1-6	1-5	1-4
Damage
Power 1	3	0	0
Power 2	6	3	0
Power 3	9	6	0
Power 4	12	9	3
Power 5	15	12	6
Power 6	18	15	9

Unlike the defensive mode, the warp disruption field in offensive mode is focused enough that it can damage units even if they are not warp capable.

4. Cool down time

The EGW must cool down between firings. A complete turn must pass between firings (exactly as for ESGS). This is regardless of which mode it was fired in.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 01:46 pm: Edit

When do you set the ESG to either ESG-mode or EGW-mode? EA, when activating.

Can a Lyran do it if it in an ESG field already , either its own or another ship's field?

It should be called "The Lyran Kzinti-swatter."

By Stephen W. Fairfield (Sfairfield) on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 02:01 pm: Edit

Actually it replaces the ESG completely (and doesn't interact with the ESG if both are used).

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 07:35 pm: Edit

I don't know if a small zone of effect is better than Curcle of destruction.

For 5 points of power an R0 ESG can generate 20 point of damage to drones or a ship it over-runs.

I think the weapon is good as a secondary mode for the ESG but not enough better ( indeed slightly infereior to ( you have a chance to miss! ) the ESG.

Therefore having it as an optional mode ( maybe a refit like the capasitor refit ) will increase the flexibility of the Lyrans.
Offsetting the ECM drone I asume.

By Stephen W. Fairfield (Sfairfield) on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 11:35 pm: Edit

The main advantage of the EWG (and why it's somewhat less effective than an ESG in some ways) is that it eliminates the Lyran fleet maneuvering problem. Yes, they can set the ESGs to range 0, but that more or less limits the ESG to defensive use. While a range 0 ESG may do 20 points of damage, it's not easy to accomplish.

And even then, the inability to stack ships, or activate ESGs by different ships within each others radii, makes it hard for Lyrans to practice fleet drone defense, each ship having to depend on its own ESGs for the most part or have some ships dedicated to running interferrence ahead of the others. It's hard to use concentration of force when one of your weapon systems requires a dispersed formation.

By David A Slatter (Davidas) on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 06:15 am: Edit

The EWG is plenty powerful. Even in direct fire mode. Sure, it costs 6 power to charge, but it also costs nothing to hold, and does an average of 6 damage at range 3, which is almost as good as an overloaded DSR. Getting in arc will not be too difficult as this will be a mass lyran fleet charge at high speed - one ship will have the ESGs up while the the others fire EWGs.
At range 2 or less, the EWG is terrifying in direct fire mode - it gives the Lyrans the point-blank firepower of a Hydran.

The drone defence mode is also strong. As far as I can see, it can basically destroy any 6 drones at range 1, 5 drones at range 2, or 3 drones at range 3. Considering that the standard anti-lyran tactic is to use armoured drones, this makes it individually better than the ESG at drone defence, and any number can be fired without the problem of the 4-impulse delay. The Lyrans effectivly become immune to drones. (Check - a Lyran BC can blow up 24 drones in a jiffy - a lyran fleet with as many EWGs as they normally have ESGs can blow up ca. 144 drones, AND they can do this while charging straight into a drone wave).

All in all, an increadibly powerful upgrade of the ESG. I suggest that it is proposed as a 2X weapon.

By Stephen W. Fairfield (Sfairfield) on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 09:39 am: Edit

Yup. The drone defense is probably better than an ESG (which is why the offensive mode is, in my opinion, weaker than the standard ESG ram, due to the limited arc and to-hit roll. A standard 5pt ESG will do more damage at range 0,2&3, equal damage at range 1, though it can be degraded by enemy drones and does have the 4 impulse activation delay.). It's anti-fighter capablities are probably a wash. It can potentially damage more fighters than an ESG, but a single EWG can't destroy them in a single firing (though it does admittedly weaken them for subsequent targetting by Phasers and Disruptors.)

If the drone defense seems to good, it'd be easy enough to say that armor modules shield the drone's warp drive, so each armor module makes the drone take an additional point of power from the wave to destroy (and a drone is either destroyed or uneffected by a wave if there isn't sufficient power; a drone can't be partially damaged by the EWG.)

I'd also like to point out the other major disadvantage of the EWG: it has to be charged with warp power, which can make when and how fast to recharge the capacitor a difficult decision.

And while it hasn't been mentioned, I'd say that the lack of the hellbore interaction and minesweeping capabilities of the ESG is a more or less even tradeoff.

It's effectively a hypothetical weapon, perhaps something used in Federation sims of Lyran ships before they had enough combat data to accurately model ESGs.

By David A Slatter (Davidas) on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 10:39 am: Edit

Sure, the EWG has to be powered with warp, but that's a bit of a side issue as at the point of conflict, it can be held for NO enegy cost at all.

So any lyran starting at WS-III will have that much more of an alpha strike. Besides, if you are reloading weapons and ESGs after an attack run, I bet that 95% of the time you could arrange things that the ESG could be recharged (if at all) using warp power without affecting any tactical situations.
I will admit that I forgot that ESGs are good in anti-hellbore mode and for mines. However, I do note that the Lyran fleet can still field 1-2 units with ESGs for these purposes, using them with just one ship (as they are best) while now having all those lovely EWGs.

Don't forget that the offensive mode of the EWG hits the SAME shield as all the other fire. Frequently, the enemy can arrange things so that ESG rams happen on a different shield to the main firepower of the Lyran ship, an action that can render ESG rams completly ineffective if pulled off well by 2-3 ships.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 11:02 am: Edit

The think about an ESG ram is that it can be mitigated. You can shove things out the shuttle bay at the last minute, even launch an otherwise useless drone (say a probe drone which would not hurt the enemy, but is going to take four points off of that radius zero ESG ram).

An EWG cannot be mitigated in anyway, which makes it much more powerful than a normal ESG ram, although admittedly there is no Mizia benefit.

Still, a Lyran ship would not have any reason to not use this rather than normal ESG operation when going for an overrun. Sure, he may take that T-bomb hit and lost ten shield boxes, but the trade off is that he will score ten more points of damage to the ship he overruns because the ESG field will not be weakened by the T-bomb.

This is an EXTREMELY powerful new weapon because it converts all the ESG's power into a single punch. Since there is no limit given in its operation to prevent more than one from being used, consider that a Lyran DN making an overrun at range 0 could now score:

6x10 for disruptors = 60
4x18 for ESGs in EWG mode = 72

Total = 132 BEFORE adding in phaser fire.

A Lyran FF under the same conditions would score 38 points of damage. A DW would score 76 points of damage.

And remember that there is no mitigation. Nothing to reduce the effect of the overrun because you cannot shove a shuttle or drone in the way.

Yes, you might blow off an ESG before the ram occurs (or a disruptor or some number of phasers or what have you), and yes you have to assume an EW balance.

But also notice that while the Disruptor will feed back two points of damage each, there is no feedback from the EWG.

In short:

I AM NOT BUYING.

By Stephen W. Fairfield (Sfairfield) on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Not a problem, just an idea.

However:

Mitigation of the EWG: It is vulnerable (admittedly not extremely) to EW. You can still throw drones at the EWG carrying ship to force it to use it in Defensive mode (which does no damage at all to SC5 or bigger targets) or to force it to use its phasers; either way you reduce the damage the Lyran can cause.

The narrow arc of fire can also make it difficult to bring every weapons to bear unless doing a range 0 overrun and (assuming a competant, average luck opponent) this is difficult to accomplish without losing a few weapon systems, also reducing the overall damage.

The Lyran needs to be balanced against its historical opponents.

A Kzinti can generally put enough drones in flight (staggered intelligently) to force the Lyran to use the majority of its EWGs defensively (particularly since they have the 1 turn cool down period like ESGs, one hopes the Lyran will some in reserve to cover the intervening turn). And with its EWGs occupied, a believe that the numerous Ph-3s on the typical Kzinti ship make a range 0 overrun more to the Kzinti's advantage.

A Hydran has fighters. Generally it takes at least two EWGs to cripple a fighter, and the EWGS may not even damage more than one or two depending on the range, requiring either firing additional EWGS, phasers or leaving itself open to a range 0 Fusion/Phaser strike from the fighters. If the Lyran can destroy the fighters away from the Hydran ship, the Hydran is vulnerable, but this is always the case. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I would wager that even with EWGs in offensive mode, a Lyran wouldn't want to swap range 0 shots with a Hyrdan. Now the Hydran can't use it's hellbores to knock down the EWG, but conversely, the Lyran can't use the EWG to shield itself from hellbores.

The Federation might have the hardest time with the change, at least with pre-drone rift ships. Of course Lyran ships of that time period have their own problems (lack of power) that make it difficult for them to do a range 0 overrun while arming disruptors. The maneuverability difference betwen a Lyran and a Fed is not so great and the Lyran would have to worry about the Fed hitting with its photons before it could get its EWGs in arc. After the Feds get the drone refit and the Lyrans get their powerpacks it becomes a hybrid of the Kzinti/Hydran situation: the Fed can force use of some EWGs defensively, but not as many as the Kzinti, and it can threaten enough damage, though not as much as the Hydran, to make a range 0 overrun a desperation maneuver.

Other points: Yes, the EWG doesn't cause feedback, but neither does the ESG.

If the damage seems too much, then perhaps changing ito a 2x power at target range instead of 3x would be better.

If the lack of a hold cost seems too beneficial (it begs the question why it isn't too beneficial for the ESG), then perhaps a hold cost equal to 1/3 the power in the capacitor could be applied (in a similar manner to Particle Cannons).

Keep in mind the goal of the EWG is not to make a weapon that is better in terms of damage or defensive capability than the ESG, but to make one that frees Lyran fleets to maneuver without worring about running into each other.

I appreciate you pointing out the flaws in the proposal and would like to hear any thoughts you have on fixing them.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 02:06 am: Edit

Here is a thought. When I first read "Expanding Wave Generator" this picture formed in my mind. A device added to a ship that would fire a carrier wave that would carry an ESG field over a three hex front at speed 32 up to 6 hexs, loosing one point per hex traveled.(Hows that for a run on sentance?) The wave would be independant of the ships movement. A ship would raise an ESG field then fire the carrier wave into it. The wave picks up the field and carrys it out to six hexs from the point of firing and the disipates on impulse fired+7.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 10:39 am: Edit

A mauler arc like direct fire mode of an ESG.

If the ship has two generators than the mauler arcs left and right only. Four generators is probably L,R,Rear Mauler arcs.

Works out to range 6, hits on a 1-5 up to range 3, hits on a 1-4 at 4-6 range (affected by EW) and does damage equal to 2xPower Discharged, up to a maximum of 5 power.

By Stephen W. Fairfield (Sfairfield) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 09:45 am: Edit

Interesting ideas, but they don't seem to address the problem I perceive with Lyran fleets.

The point of this thread is not to make a weapon that's better than the ESG, or to improve the ESG, but to alter the ESG in such a way that it stays about as effective, or becomes slightly less effective (preferably losing offensive ability over defensive) but, and this is the important bit, no longer interacts with other ESGs or presents a hazard to friendly ships (friendly seeking weapons/shuttles are fair game).

In other words, a modification of the ESG that would allow Lyran fleets the same freedom of maneuver enjoyed by other fleets in SFB.

Now I've come to realize that my proposed EWG is a bit too good at what it does. In my next post, I'll present an idea for a revised ESG.

By Stephen W. Fairfield (Sfairfield) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 10:54 am: Edit

ESG: Revised

Purpose/Analysis: The ESG is primarily used to protect the Lyran ship from fighters and drones, the main auxiliary weapons of it's two main adversaries, the Hydrans and the Kzinti. It has a seconday offensive mode which can be used at very short ranges and is meant to complement its disrupters in the same manner that drones are used in the other disruptor using fleets.

The current ESG/ESG and ESG/Friendly Ship interactions are probably meant to balance what otherwise is a fairly low power, no hold cost, automatic hit heavy weapon. Any modification to the ESG that removes this interaction must necesarily involve a reduction in its offensive capabilities while still providing a weapon complementary to its disruptors.

Proposal #1: Offensive/Defensive mode ESG

General Operation: The ESG is powered and cools down in the same way as it currently does.

Defensive Mode: The ESG works exactly the same as it does currently, except that it can only damage drones and shuttles or other size class 6 or 7 units and does not interact with other ESGs or hellbores. The ESG loses its anti-mine capabilities (they are too simple to be harmed by the EMP wave). It does this by projecting a powerful standing EMP wave at a given range, capable of frying the controls and destabalizing the warp drives of small, unshielded units. Larger or shielded units have sufficently hardened controls that the ESG in defensive mode cannot harm them.

Offensive Mode: The ESG may be fired as a direct fire weapon with a range of 1-3, hitting on a 12 or less on 2d6. There is no 4 impulse delay in this mode. The ESG fires one pulse on each impulse in a manner identical to a PPD. Each pulse does damage based on the range: 3 points at range 1, 2 points at range 2, or 1 point at range 3. The ESG fires one pulse per point of power discharged. No more than five points of power may be discharged. The arc of fire for ESGs in Offensive mode is identical to a mauler with a 3 hex maximum range. ESGs in offensive mode can not target units at range 0.

Proposal #2: ESG/Disruptor Synchronous Energy Lance

General Operations: As in Proposal #1.

Defensive Mode: As in Proposal #1.

ESG/Disrupter Synchronous Energy Lance (EDSEL) Mode: In EDSEL Mode, the ESG sends a pulse through special conduits to one of the ship's disruptors. The disruptor can be fired as either standard or overloaded, but can not benefit from UIM or DERFACS when being used for EDSEL. A disruptor can not receive power from more than one ESG. The disruptor must be powered as normal, it is not powered by the energy received from the ESG. The decision to fire a Disruptor and ESG as an EDSEL is made at the time of firing. The ESG adds one point of damage per point of power discharged, up to five points, to the damage done by the disruptor. However the damage doen by an EDSEL is divided as evenly as possible across the three facing shields of the target ship (or two shields if exactly on the line between two shields, as with the PPD). Left over points are allocated at the firing player's discretion. An ESG fired as an EDSEL must cool down for a turn as normal. The disruptor may fire again when next normally allowed.

So... any thoughts. Too powerful? Too weak? Too weird?

By scott doty (Kurst) on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 11:53 am: Edit

Why not try one of these two options,or both:

Increase the range of the ESG to five hexes, but only have it cover a hemisphere, and limit its size to 7 hexes or so. (FH or RH) This gives the field some range, but it is also easier to avoid.

Give all Lyrans a refit that allows their ESG's to not interact with each other, but they still hit objects.

By Stephen W. Fairfield (Sfairfield) on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 03:48 pm: Edit

The projected ESG might help Lyrans have more freedom of movement, but I think it might be too effective a weapon. Likewise, removing the ESG/ESG interaction is tricky because you'd need to figure out how much BPV to charge for the refit and it makes possible the multipship ESG ram, which, again, might be too effective (imagine 3 Lyrans ships, in the same hex, with a total of 6 0-radius ESGs ramming a ship. A bit much for an auto-hit weapon.)

The ability to do multi-ship rams was my main motivation for separating the ESG into Offensive and Defensive modes, with the Offensive mode being either similar to other seconday weapon systems or having some inherrent flaw that makes stacking it difficult.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 11:50 pm: Edit

If you remove the ESG interactions the combat value of a ship goes up with the more ships you have. Thats not something that would work out well in game terms.
How about a device that could constrain the field to a chosen # of hexs. Would still have the same amount of energy per hex (i.e. it would no concentrate the energy) and un-fielded energy would be used for the constraining mechanism. Would be plotted like: ESG 4pt,Range3,3 hex, direction A.
Direction is noted so as the ship turns the ESG field doesn't.
This would allow fredom of movement when nessasary for some tactical risk. Could be a refit.

By scott doty (Kurst) on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 12:47 pm: Edit

I don't see how removing the ESG interactions could increase the value per weapon, it does increase the value of a fleet with ESG's because the ESG's lose capability as they are now, but large lyran fleets do not have a BPV reduction (that I know of) because of this. Removing the interaction should just avoid the loss altogether.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 03:20 pm: Edit

Because the basic unit of BPV is the unit(ship,shuttle etc.). Fleets don't have a BPV of their own as they are made up of individual units contributing to a total. If you remove ESG interactions, the usefulness and power of the ESG is greater. In an individual ship the ESG is what it is ment to be. But imagine an entire fleet with, say 12 ESG's(or more) in one hex at full streingth, raming a base or sweeping a drone wave or...The Lyrans would rule the quadrant. Though scouts have a special rule as to their BPV when opperating alone or not, applying a rule like that to a Races fleet in general seems not the style of the SFB rule system. Thats how I see it, anyway. I could be wrong.

By scott doty (Kurst) on Monday, April 01, 2002 - 12:17 am: Edit

Loren
Anyone who lets a Lyran fleet overun a base deserves to be nuked! Imagine a Hydran fleet overuning a base, a Fed fleet, in fact just about any fleet. There are a TREMENDOUS number of ways to reduce ESG field strengths, other weapons do not have this problem. ESG's are basically penalized in fleet situations, not because they would be too powerful, but because for whatever reason (probably to make them intersting) the original rules had them interact with each other. In effect this makes ESG's less powerful in fleets then in one on one situations, and the BPV difference is not taken into account. By allowing a refit that removed the ESG interactions the BPV disparity (whatever it is) would be removed and then the Lyrans would finally be in a "fair fight" situation when taken as a fleet.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, April 01, 2002 - 12:31 am: Edit

Kurst. You make a good point. The base over run thing was just an example. However, Lyrans could pop a ship a turn if they could mingle their ESGs so I'll have to think a wile. Mabey call my friend Dwight and see what he thinks. Theres got to be something.
I would point out that a Lyran can help reduce the number of ways the opponant can reduce his field by raising the field only when he's ready to ram. He can manuver freely, too.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Monday, April 01, 2002 - 02:23 am: Edit

Consider the problems of combined ESGs when faced with a minefield. A 11 ship DN led Lyran force could have 360 points of ESG strength at range 3. (Ok, against a minefield it would be set up at range 1, but that was harder math.) No minefield could stand against that.

Equally, you would have problems needing much larger drone stacks to punch through an ESG layer increasing vulnerability to mines.

By scott doty (Kurst) on Monday, April 01, 2002 - 10:58 am: Edit

I do not think the minefield thing is that big a deal, it would just be strength added to Lyran fleets, they should be better at something.
I do not understand the second point on more drones equalling greater mine vulnerability.
It is true that the Lyran itself can mitigate some of the ways opponents have of damaging the ESG field before impact (shooting down shuttles, tractoring drones etc.), but most involve using weapons that would have otherwise damaged the opponent.
Another point that needs to be made is that a Lyran force running something over has one difficulty, usually that something is firing back. If this occurs before the overrun, which it usually does, the Lyran force is probably (depending upon what is shooting at it) going to lose some of those ESG's before impact, if not a significant amount of them. Also if the huge pile of ESGs is facing another fleet it gets spread out on the whole fleet, further reducing individual ship damage.
The main point of this lengthy ramble is to show that Lyran fleets really need some sort of help with their ESG interactions. This could take the form of removing the interactions, or creating a direct fire wave or whatever.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, April 01, 2002 - 10:37 pm: Edit

Well, like I said before.(March 30, 11:50. 7 posts up) How about a field constaining device. You could have an ESG field in three hexs infront of you forming a forward energy field. This would allow much freedom of movement. You wouldn't have to change any rules. Just add a device!

By scott doty (Kurst) on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 01:57 am: Edit

Loren: The problem with the "field constraing device" is that the fields from multiple ships still interact (unless you are saying they do not) which is the problem to begin with. Simply adding a refit that states ESG's will not interact with each other is a simple as a change gets, it would take a paragraph at most. The rest of the ESG rules would stay the same and fleet actions for Lyrans would be much simpler, assuming that is the goal. The problem I have seen with Lyrans, and Lyran fleets is that they pay an awful lot of BPV for those ESG's and unless they are fighting Drone users/Hydrans they are not really worth the cost. Consider a Lyran vs. a Fed, the Fed hits range 4, Apha's and then the crippled Lyran attempts to hit with his remaining ESG(S). The weapon is even easier to circumvent for plasma ships, and becomes almost a liability in large fleets. Admittedly the Lyrans are supposed to fight Kzinit's and Hydrans, but they are also supposed to fight Feds. What I am trying to say is that if the interactions are removed from ESG's by a refit, then Lyran fleets would be worth their BPV's, which is what they are supposed to be. I would also like to see an increased range option for the ESG, out to five, but maybe both would be too much.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 02:59 pm: Edit

With a Lyran the worst I've come to with a Fed was two cripples ships yelling curses over sub-space. The Lyrans can hold their own just find against the Feds. Use your ESG as a secondary weapon after the enemey has discharged at the range of YOUR choosing. In the mean time use it defencively so you can not worry about his limited drones.(Carriers are always special tactics so exclude them here.) Play Klingonish with an extra shield(so to speak).

A Lyran Fleet that could constain their fields to the forward three hexs could interleave them. Think about it. Waves of ESGs. Darn near the same thing with some planning. Now, I don't have a hex grid in front of me but.....