Unless they happen to outrun the plasma they attract (hang near the base and run behind it), though this will depend on where the Gorn 'park'...

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Sunday, November 13, 2011 - 09:58 pm: Edit

I'm assuming the minefield is geared to AT LEAST range 15-19. Perhaps closer to 19-23. In either case to prevent the obvious bombardment.

But assume I don't have to bull through the minefield to achieve my range 20 shot. (I'd detect the minefield (say, four) hexes before encountering the first explosive mine, due to an interaction of minefield concentrations and the range-10 detection rule) The Sierra's only have a range of 25.

I'd certainly have to sweat through the mines to get to range 15. By the time I come through the first 3 or 4 hexes of the minefield, I might as well run down to point-blank, since most of the heavy work has been done.

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 09:42 am: Edit

Actually you might have hit on something in your first post. The idea of splitting up and attacking from three directions, while it means you'll almost definitely lose a couple ships, also means he'll almost definitely lose his PFs early.
If he sends the scouts with the flotillae, specifically target them with the type-Ss. Knock them out and the whole thing becomes much easier.
If he's smart enough to have the scouts hand back, load the type-S tubes with shotguns and blow the rest of the flotilla to kitty heaven. One CLF can drop 160 pts of plasma spread across as few as three targets (or as many as 8).
Meanwhile your other ships are beginning to pound the base from the opposite side and if a PFS goes wild it can't use it's channels to protect its flotilla-mates, making the shotgun party tht much more effective.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 12:15 pm: Edit

If a scout went wild (to protect it's flotilla from the shotguns), would it also attract the Sierras targetting the base as well?

Say, I'm at three equidistant points around the base at range 25. He's sallied a flotilla at each of two groups with the scouts floating halfway at about range 12 to the base and thier respective flotilla. One of my groups shotguns at the flotilla and the group that's been left alone begins launching EPTs at the base. If the scout protecting the shotgunned-flotilla goes wild, would it also protect the base (since the base is it's PFT)?

Seems the scout could be far enough out that it can outrun a shotgun and still keep the full-sized Sierras off the base.

But surrounding the base does seem to be the only way to kill the scouts. If it is possible to kill them, then I agree that the rest of the flotilla would evaporate with a shotgun or two.

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 12:23 pm: Edit

The "Wild Scout" issue is not a major problem, in my mind. Wild Scouts are not SWACs (though they share many properties) and have a slightly harder time of it. Follow me on this. Gorn mass fire at the base. Scout A goes wild. He can by (K1.756) attract everything that was targetted at other PFs in his flotilla or his true PFT (the base in this case). This requires that he plotted <=12 or EDs. Assume he plots 12, and runs them out for a while. They're going to eventually hit, if on the best of their legs. You'll eventually knock it down, and then you've only got 1 Scout to deal wtih. That entire flotilla becomes easier to take out. Wash and repeat with the other scout.

If you're thinking of doing the Wild SWAC alternation trick, it doesn't work with PFs. (J9.24) which enables this trick is not used by Wild PFS. By (K1.756), it can only attract plasma targetted on a member of it's flotilla (which the other Scout is not) or it's PFT (which the plasma no longer is). The other Scout cannot save the first.

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 12:54 pm: Edit

Right. also, the geometry will be ugly for a wild PFS. With shotguns coming at its flotilla from the front and Sierras (originally targetd on the base) coming from behind, it cannot run and it will die. Wash, rinse, repeat.

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 02:28 pm: Edit

The place where this becomes an issue is if there's a time limit. Many base struggles result in reinforcements on patrol returning either a fixes span (turn 7) or when a randomized counter reaches a certain point (toll a die a turn, when the count hits 40, the reinforcements show). In either case, blowing 4-6 turns to kill the scouts may be unacceptable.

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 02:43 pm: Edit

If there's a time limit, this battle is already pretty much impossible. Get in, do as much damage as you can to whatever you can reach without taking any cripples, then disengage and count your victory points.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 02:59 pm: Edit

No time limit. We figured that any possible reinforcements are maybe a day or two out (or they would have been at the base when the uglies showed up)

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 03:09 pm: Edit

Maybe I should ask this in the general-rules-questions area, but it applies here:
When a PFS goes wild, does it attract ALL the seekers bound for ALL the PFs in the flotilla? (I think it does)
Of do you pick a PF and it attracts the ones targetting that PF?
Does it attract the seekers pointed at the flotilla AND the PFT? or do you pick which one when going wild?

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 03:52 pm: Edit

That is a better topic for the question, as its somewhat unclear. The interaction, however, would appear to attract all plasma targeted on any of those targets in R15 or which come into that range.

It acts as a SWAC (all plasma in R15), that can only distract for its flotilla or PFT.

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 04:34 pm: Edit

One possibility is to use your commanders' options to replace all your GAS with G-7s and load up on the type-K plasma. It can't be distracted by weasels, so I think it's immune to wild PFS, too. It won't do much, but every little bit helps.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 05:10 am: Edit

If seiging, don't expect the wild PFS to be stuck at speed 12 - with plasma on the board for half a turn or more there's time for the defender to plan a tow or a speed change.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 06:26 pm: Edit

I had a few attrition unit questions for the audience.


*Tactically-speaking, how do the Romulan Centurion and StarHawk compare to one another? Is there any particular tactical advantage in taking a flotilla of either type over the other, or is it pretty much a wash either way?

(I guess the modularity of the StarHawks would prove an advantage in campaign terms. But I wondered if this made the boats more, or less, effective in battle.)


*In Module X1R, it's noted that X-PFTs proved to be ideal RTN-hunters after Y195. They had the sensor capability needed to detect satellite bases, were fast enough operationally to catch them before a mothership came along to pack them up for relocation, and were powerful enough (with a full flotilla in tow) to destroy them before being caught by Andro reinforcements.

But would any of this apply to non-X PFTs also? The SparrowHawk-E would not be as powerful as a SparrowHawk-EX in and of itself, but the firepower from its attendant flotilla would be the same.

Or would there be any advantages that the X-PFT would have in actually maintaining its flotilla in battle?


*Over in the Omega Octant, there are a number of ways in which different empires' gunboat flotillas vary from one another - and from Alpha flotillas, due to the use of the "volatile warp" engine system.

Be it in size of boat (from the larger Mæsron or Iridani boats down to the smaller Drex examples) or of flotilla (ranging from four to eight boats), or in terms of agility (some Omega PFs have Turn Mode A instead of AA) or weaponry (which reflects the diversity in weapon types found across the region), there are many markers which help show how one boat differs from another.

Part of this is because these boats were first built when the operating factions had been mostly isolated from one another by the Andromedans and Souldra, against whom they were primarily designed to fight. Only later were they turned on others of their kind - the reverse of what happened with Alpha PFs.

But in the Alpha Octant, where most PFs are roughly the same size, with the same number of boats per flotilla, and the same power and movement options (with the exception of Orion Pirate Buccaneers), what should one look for in order to help gauge the differences in performance of one type over another?

To stick with the plasma examples, even going beyond the StarHawk and Centurion, what would make either class of boat more (or less) effective than a Gorn or ISC PF? Would each of those boats be outstripped by Buccaneers taking plasmas in their option mounts? And are there any force multipliers derived from their operating empire's other ships, the way that, say, a flotilla of Probr PFs can benefit from any target accentuators being operated in the same battle force?


*And when it comes to comparing conjectural boats, how would one rate the Thunderbolt Federation PF relative to the gunboats that could have been built by the Federal Republic of Aurora?

(Well, I say "conjectural", but the Feds did eventually start building PFs of their own over in the "dark future" timeline reported in Module C3A.)

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 07:33 pm: Edit

Remember that 'operational speed' is higher than tactical (capped at 31) but below strategic dash speed (Warp 9+) plus the SPEX will have a higher tactical speed when closing (final 100 hexes) then the SPE (speed + channels/EW + weapons)...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 10:13 pm: Edit

A fair point. Those factors would make it easier for the SPEX to get in and make the kill in a limited window of opportunity. But I was wondering if there was a circumstance in which the SPE might still fancy its chances, of if it would need to wait for backup (or perhaps work in tandem with a second SPE) in order to take down a target RTN node.


Actually, there were a few other PF-related questions I wanted to ask:


*In the R-section of Module K, it's noted that the Hydrans preferred to use the Harrier against the Klingons, and the Hellion against the Lyrans.

But which gunboat variant would work better for them against the Vudar? (Or against the Andromedans, for that matter?)


*In (OK1.114), it's noted that the Iridani and Zosmans each found use for interceptors in certain mission roles, even after the development of full-blown PFs. (Most PF-operating Omega empires skipped INTs entirely.) In the Zosman case, it's said that their interceptors were easier to disguise using stealth fields than their PFs were, but the way in which that actually works has yet to be published.

(Plus, it's noted that the Baduvai in the LMC never fully replaced their own interceptors with PFs, partly due to the severe logistical strain their exile forces were under in the run-up to Operation Unity.)

In the Alpha Octant, is there any point at which an interceptor could fill a niche that a regular PF could not? For example, is there any sort of role in which the Orions might find a Brigand to be of particular use (the way that the Zosmans are reported to have done with their INTs), or would the Buccaneer do everything a Brigand can do as well (if not better) anyway?


*Is it a common ISC gunboat tactic to roll out one Pl-F each turn from alternating launchers (akin to the two-HEAT-per-turn trick one might use with Probr PFs); or do ISC flotilla commanders prefer to use a heavier volley on one turn, use the "spare" Pl-Fs on one of the intervening turns, and expect to have at least one turn in which their torpedoes would be unable to launch?

If operating as part of a PPD-armed force, where keeping an enemy at a respectable distance may be at a premium, I could imagine a "gun line" of boats rolling out waves of plasma in such a manner. But what might seem viable in theory and what tends to work out in practice can be two very different things...


*And are there any thoughts yet on how the PFs in Module C6 work out? (And INTs, if any were published there?)

Of the two "lost empires" involved, could it be said that one faction or the other got the better part of the deal?

By Chris Nasipak (Ecs05norway) on Wednesday, August 09, 2017 - 12:01 pm: Edit

Speaking of specific PF tactics, I have to wonder how people consider the phaser-boat versions vs the heavy-weapons versions. I'm currently sculpting the Lyran PFs for Shapeways (see appropriate thread) and have done up the 'bobtail' alternate scheme alongside the standard disruptor-armed versions.

Given the limited power available once the WBPs are dropped, is the two-disruptor layout of the Bobcat really viable? Compare to the DISR+2xDRN layout of the G1 and the 4xPh-2 starts to look really attractive to me even if the phasers don't have overload capacity or the one-off punch of a Disruptor.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, August 09, 2017 - 12:21 pm: Edit

Chris,

FWIW, I rarely drop my WBPs, regarding the extra power as more than adequate compensation for the increased vulnerability. (My favorite empire is the Tholians - their PFs are similar to, but better than, the Lyran PFs.) And if that sometimes means my PFs die a little sooner, they also take more enemies down with them.

That's not to say I don't use the phaser-boat version (Arachnid-P) sometimes. But the Tholian Arachnids have phaser-1s instead of phaser-2s. And Tholian phasers can fire through webs, a consideration that isn't relevant for the Lyrans. So for the Lyrans I would stick with the standard disruptor-armed version (and keep the warp boost packs). But I don't play the Lyrans all that often. Someone who plays them more might be of a different opinion.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, August 09, 2017 - 12:29 pm: Edit

Addendum to the above;

I think the Lyran PFs are a bit "overpriced". IIRC they are only one point less expensive than the Tholian PFs. The Tholians are among the best PFs in the game; the Lyrans are adequate but not spectacular. Just my opinion - but I think you could easily knock 2 or 3 points off the Lyrans PF BPV.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Wednesday, August 09, 2017 - 02:39 pm: Edit

The Lyran PFs desperately need phaser 1s but that can be said of a lot of the Lyran fleet. The Lyran CW would be a great ship it they updated the phasers.

The Lyrans should have negotiated for more phaseroneium to be shipped from the Klingons before they signed off on the alliance.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, August 09, 2017 - 03:00 pm: Edit

Jon,

I suspect it's probably too late to change the Lyran PFs to phaser-1s. I doubt ADB would buy off on that. That's why as a possible alternative I suggested knocking a few points off the BPV, which would better reflect their real value.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Wednesday, August 09, 2017 - 03:04 pm: Edit

I know, I was kidding. Plus there is probably no way the Lyrans would put phaser-1s on their disposable attrition units while their main line warships still carried a lot of phaser-2s.

Shame they did not end up eating all the Kzinti and taking their space. Phaser 1 supplies seem plentiful there.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Wednesday, August 09, 2017 - 04:24 pm: Edit

If I'm running drone gunboats, I will leave the WPB's off of them, and intend to keep them twenty or more hexes away from enemy units. Otherwise I keep the WBPs.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, August 09, 2017 - 04:34 pm: Edit

Phaser-1s.

X-Technology pretty much dealt with the phaser-1 problem. And went a long way to the putting paid to phaser-3s.

The Kzintis may actually have as much trouble with phaser-1s as the Hydrans, Lyrans, and Klingons. You just do not see it because the relatively small number of phaser-1s is supported by relatively large numbers of phaser-3s.

A Kzinti frigate has two phaser-1s and two phaser-3s, which is roughly comparable to the four phaser-2s on an E4, or the two phaser-2s and four phaser-3s on a Lyran FF, or the three phaser-2s and one phaser-G on a Hunter. But think what the Kzinti FF would be if it had four phaser-1s and no phaser-3s. Phaser-1s could be down-fired as phaser-3s if you needed to save energy or just did not need the full power of a phaser-1 for the given job. The Kzinti Battlecruiser has only four phaser-1s, same number as on a Lyran Heavy Cruiser, and so on.

By Chris Nasipak (Ecs05norway) on Wednesday, August 09, 2017 - 04:34 pm: Edit

Thanks. One reason I ask is that I've never played with PFs before, so since I'm building them I figured I'd get a handle on how they work.

And the lack of Ph-1's on Lyran line ships like the CW annoys me, too.